Well, we took a little break. On Saturday, we were both exhausted (we went to a barbecue at our neighbors' house, then took the kids to the drive-in for a late movie.) Now, to me, "exhausted" often means "Let's go to bed early, make love, and fall asleep in each others' arms." To her, any amount of tiredness means sexy time is over. "Exhaustion" means there's no point in even mentioning it.
So I did another 180 and told her I thought we should take the rest of the weekend off from sex. I took Sunday morning to get up early and go shooting--this is something I've always loved, but I've been complaining about not having time for a few years now. So on Saturday I signed the twins up for a CMP Juniors program for Sunday night, and while I was at it, signed up for a CMP highpower match. That's a 200-yard match with service rifles--I used a borrowed M1 Garand. I'd never shot in one before, and was further than generally get to shoot, but I thought it would be fun. It was! The pouring rain started with our practice shots, but it was OK because the sky cleared and the sun came out a few minutes after were finished for the day. I had a blast and did pretty well for my first time.
I came home, worked on the house some, and then took the twins back to the gun club for the CMP Juniors. That was great, too. The instructors were excellent and the boys had a great time.
I stuck to my 180 and made no attempt to initiate sex, though I tried to fit in some kissing. I was rather proud of that, but if she noticed, she didn't mention it. I didn't want to act, on Monday, as if a time limit had expired and now all bets were off, but I did have hopes. I did my best to be seductive in the morning, but we were getting all three boys ready to go and there wasn't much sexy about it. She was gone most of the day running around, and when she came home we made dinner and talked for awhile. I have one of our dogs in obedience classes this summer, and they're held at 8:15 on Monday nights, so I had to leave to do that. I came home around 10:00 to find her in bed with the baby, so we played with him for awhile and then I put him to bed. When I came back, she was lying across the entire bed watching TV. She apologized "I guess I should get out of your way, huh?" I told her she wasn't in my way and lay down behind her, spooning. We talked, but not about sex or relationship stuff. I lightly ran my fingers up and down her legs, touched her cheek, little stuff like that. I had rubbed her feet earlier while she played with the baby, so she seemed open to being touched. Eventually, though, I put my hand on her breast. Her nipples were rock hard. I've always thought that meant arousal, but she's told me over and over now that it doesn't mean anything. I still don't always remember. Anyway, her response was: Pulling my hand down."I'm sleepy." (Joking, or trying to)"Yeah, me too. I'm sorry, is it hard to sleep with my hand on your breast?" "If you make sure you don't move or caress me or anything." (Putting my hand back)"OK, I will, but really? This doesn't feel good to you?" (I was thinking of the hard nipple under my palm, and thinking she must be feeling something.) "Sigh . . . . not really, it just feels warm. (Taking my hand off her breast and placing it on her stomach.)"Oh." "I like laying here with your arm around me. . . ." "Yeah. Me, too."
I knew she was trying to make me feel better with that last bit, and I knew I didn't give her much to go on, but I was disappointed, and I wasn't kidding about being tired. And the truth was, she didn't really want me lying there with my arm around her, either. Eventually I got the message in all her squirmings and went back to my side of the bed.
But I didn't learn my lesson. This morning, in the kitchen, I tried a deep kiss. She was responding until I brushed her breast with my hand again. Then she grabbed my wrist and pulled my arm down. She pulled away from the kiss, too. I was hurt by this and I guess I didn't really try to hide it. I asked her what was wrong. "Well, it's just that (looked toward the kids, they were eating breakfast and couldn't see a thing) . . . . I just (looked the other way, at the window, we were nowhere near it) . . . . I don't know. It's just my instinct, I guess. I AM trying, you know."
I'm trying not to take these things personally anymore, but it's impossible not to be sad that her "instinct" is to push me away and reject me. And I guess she's trying, but to me, it sure looked like she tried to find an excuse before she decided she had to tell the truth. I'm sure that's probably unfair, but it doesn't feel that way to me. I do think she's trying . . . sort of. . . but it feels like I'm doing all the work and she's just going to snap back to "normal" like a rubber band if I "let" her.
She did take the SSM book with her on her way out the door. Whether to read it or just to make me feel better, I don't know, but at least she is trying and she does seem to care about how I feel now.
Just a point from a woman about the breasts thing....PLEASE BELIEVE her when she tells you that a hard nipple does not mean arousal. It is not the same as an erection, ok? This is something men have a hard time understanding....but to be stimulated by breast touching is a *choice* we make. Breasts are not like a penis or a clitoris. They can be completely asexual, or VERY sexual...all depending upon choice, mood, circumstance, etc. It is actually very demeaning and irritating to a woman when a man will not realize this fact. It is as if he is saying to her "I don't believe you - you are OBVIOUSLY turned on, I can see it by the fact of your hard nipples - and yet you are withholding that from me". How hard is it for a woman to be told she is lying about something like this? VERY.
Silly - it simply doesn't work that way. Nipples get hard for any number of reasons and it is not a reflection of desire or arousal. Obviously she nursed your babies, right? Are you thinking that her nipples being hard during nursing meant sexual arousal?
Not meaning to pound you with 2x4's but this is just something that men frequently don't understand.
Another hint for you Bear (but leaving the 2x4 to DQ...)
During the normal work day, I would avoid touching or kissing your wife in a sexual way. This is particularly true if she's already wrapped up in tending to kids or housework or getting ready to run errands or whatever. When a woman's mind is occupied with work or business of some kind, trying be sexual with her is usually a turn-off and often causes a grumpy response.
What you need to foster at those times is an emotional connection, via non-sexual touch. A warm hug, a quick non-sexual kiss, even a possessive little pat on the behind is alright, but going beyond that is not welcome JUST THEN. Save it for when it will be welcome.
I had to learn to this lesson the hard way, believe me. By day, my wife is the Nice Girl turned Mrs. Proper Mommy, who doesn't flirt or tease with me, and expects me to be Mr. Proper Daddy. Non-sexual touch is appreciated, but not more. However, at night after the kids are in bed and she's had time to unwind in a book for a while, seduction is welcome and she can put Mrs. Proper Mommy in the closet while we play. I have learned / am learning to choose my times and places carefully if seduction is what I have in mind.
Married women who grew up in the Nice Girls Don't or you're a whore! mentality (and few don't) are often very adept at being Ms. Proper by day and Tigress by night. You're better off gong along with that rather than trying to fight it -- enjoy the tigress when she comes out to play!
-- B.
Last edited by Bagheera; 07/01/0808:39 PM.
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Yes amen (as usual) to Bagheera's points about being in mommy mode. It is very hard for most women to switch roles.
Plus...ok this one is hard to say because there are not many descriptions help me describe this but...men and little boys tend to try to *distract* mommies and they get gwumpy when they can't have all of mommy's attention at any given time.
Now I'm not sure if you (men) will recognize this within yourselves, but I have a theory that for some reason, for you men, if you can draw mommy away from her task and lure her into a sexual mood, you somehow feel *success* at something you have in your minds as a gauge to your own seductive powers. You seem to even be ok with just luring her into a mood, not even having to get her into bed. Somehow you think that this *says* something if you can turn her mind off from her task at hand and on to YOU and your sexy self.
Well...if you guys could just...you know....not do that? I mean, I have no idea where this comes from, but I do know that it isn't really fair to us women to do this when it is mostly because you want some kind of ego stroke. Now don't 2x4 me back, because I know you aren't wanting sex with your wife as an ego stroke. I am talking specifically about this bizarre habit of you guys insisting on trying to get your wife to get into the mood while she has her elbows deep in dishes and little kids at her skirt. Why do you want it specifically *at this time*? Is there any merit to my feeling that it is some kind of challenge or gauge to you?
Not sure if I am way off base or not but basically, nearly all men do this and nearly all women dislike it.
Wow a couple of lights just turned on in my head! I used to do that seductive thing while W was in the kitchen making dinner. It's worse than that, without even thinking, acting on instinct only (I guess) I'd try to give her a hug when she has a knife in her hand and cutting something. Lately I have really been trying to control that as it would bug the hell out of her when I'd do that.
The other light is she has told me things will be so different between us when D has gone to college. This makes perfect sense to me now. It's because mommy-mode will have ended for good and she will have more of that sexy lady side of her back again and to concentrate on.
When she told me that the first time my response was, "why wait until then let's start now." I never considered the mom factor.
Silly - I got onto this thread late but a quick note on the PE problem. I had that on and off depending on my fatigue and how often between ML in my younger years. But I find as I get older, it is no longer a problem. After about age 40 I found that I could go very long, too long in fact if W doesn't "force" the issue so to speak (thankfully she knows the right 'tricks' to help things along when she is ready for me to finish).
I like your method of finishing with her last though. I had always done it the other way around, so I may try that if PE happens again.
It sounds like you two are doing a great job recovering from your SSM. Keep up the good work.
Me49 W49 D17 M23 Sep01 Me PA 1 Jan02 filed D Mar02 ended A 1 reconcile Apr08 Me PA 2 May08 ended A 2 Aug09 A's revealed My latest thread Drive
What you need to foster at those times is an emotional connection, via non-sexual touch. A warm hug, a quick non-sexual kiss, even a possessive little pat on the behind is alright, but going beyond that is not welcome JUST THEN. Save it for when it will be welcome.
This is going to sound defensive, but I've been doing that for 12 years. I really don't think she sees a connection between any non-sexual touching (hugs, pats, light kisses, fingers in the hair, a squeeze on the shoulder or an arm around the waist) and anything to do with sex. I promise you that a lack of this kind of loving touching is not at issue.
DanceQueen, of course you're right and both men AND women do this for exactly the reason you guessed--it's an ego stroke to think that you're sexy enough to distract someone from what they're doing. It's certainly not something men do and women dislike--women do it all the time.
However, I wasn't exactly doing that. I didn't want her to have sex with me at that moment, I just wanted to touch her momentarily because I'm trying to follow the advice I was given here--remember how I'm supposed to be seductive all day, outside the bedroom? I'm just trying to do that--the idea is to keep giving her little reminders of our sexual relationship outside the bedroom, at least as I understand it. (Well, that and I enjoy touching her breast--who am I kidding?) I wasn't asking her to drop anything; we were standing in a doorway, kissing.
She told me honestly enough what happened. She wasn't busy, people weren't watching, she just followed her "instinct" and pushed me away.
We took the kids to the pool today and had a good time, and on the way home I joked that we would give the baby a bath, put him to bed and take a shower together to get the pool water off. I got a polite half-smile. Later, when I put the baby to bed and lay down on our bed for a few minutes, she came up and kissed me, saying we should go have dinner and put the twins to bed, and then she would "make it up to you." She keeps saying that.
Anyway, here we are sitting in the living room with dinner done and the kids playing. I guess I'll see what happens when the kids go to bed. On the one hand, I don't really like that she's going to "make it up to me." On the other hand, that's fairly petty thinking. I'm trying to get her to do more of something I really like and she really doesn't, so it's not really fair to hope that she'll pretend it's not all my idea.
She got sick. I don't know how it happened, but she's miserable with some stomach thing that must have come on in about five minutes. I'm trying to avoid getting angry at all costs, but you have to admit, the timing sucks.
Like I told Ali, it's not that it's her fault, I know it's not. But it IS just my damn luck.
Oh and also...Silly...if I went out to the shop while my man was out there trying to use power tools on some important house project and I threw my arms around his waist and started rubbing my front against his back...he would stop me immediately and make it clear that this isn't an appropriate moment! But to a woman, when she is cooking or otherwise "working" at her house or children it is the same thing to her. You say both men and women do this, but I beg to differ. Men make it very clear very quickly what their personal space and physical boundaries are, and as a woman you are usually not welcome to come get into his space or on his body without his direct consent, especially if he is working on something.
I don't think it is as common for a woman to do this "getting your attention" or distracting you while you are doing something else as it is for a man. Not sure what others would say about this but, does your wife do this to you? Just trying to make you think about new things from the other side! It helps everyone when we learn.
Silly - just honestly, you are still putting way too much pressure on her for sex. But hang in there you will get it right soon. :0)
OK, assuming you're right, what do I do? I did two weeks of not initiating or mentioning sex in any way, and that just about killed me. I'll go back and read the thread from then, but it doesn't seem, in my memory, like it made much difference to her.
I was told here that she needs time to build up arousal and so I have to mention sex early and then keep giving her small reminders so she has time to think about it. That's all I was trying to do. I'm trying to find a balance here. I don't want to "pressure" her, but I didn't like pretending I didn't care about sex, either. Besides, I vent here, but I didn't say anything to my wife (not even by a look or an attitude) about being disappointed about sex last night. It wasn't her fault, and I tried very hard to act like I understood that. I only let my little-boy irritation show here.
So, I'm putting too much pressure on her. What should I do instead of what I'm doing now?
Quote:
I don't think it is as common for a woman to do this "getting your attention" or distracting you while you are doing something else as it is for a man.
Well, neither of us can prove it, but certainly I disagree. Women do it all the time. My wife doesn't--anymore--but when sex was something she thought about, she certainly did. Nowadays I doubt she stopped because she's superior to men; I imagine she stopped because it was a sexual thing to do and she doesn't feel sexual anymore.
The biggest difference is that the average man would probably only get a flash of irritation--the average guy wants sex enough to drop what he's doing if his woman indicates that she's willing at that moment. So he might say it's annoying that she interrupted his work, but his actions say he didn't really mind.
