In retrospect, I think you're right. I don't know that you've read "Love Must Be Tough" by Dobson, in it he absolutely stresses that that is the only way to get a marriage back on track and the sooner the better. Unfortunately by the time I read it I had been separated for over 6 months and pretty much had left the door open inspite of all of the crap husband handed to me and all of his bad actions. Dobson's thinking is that when you go along, cry and beg, the WAW loses whatever respect they have for us. Especially if they are reliving or trying to recapture what they think they missed out on. They look at us like we are an obstacle in their way and they resent us for it.
Makes sense to me especially now that I can see it for what it was.
Beth,
I used to look back and wonder if I had followed the "Tough Love" how it would have turned out.... The truth is once she said she wanted a D... That was the beginning of the end....
Once someone screws around, that ends it for me...... Even if that person comes back, I doubt I would be able to make it work... I would probably be always wondering if there was someone better out there for me than this person who left our M and cheated....
Take Care,
NMD
"Chains do not hold a marriage together. It is threads, hundreds of tiny threads which sew people together through the years. That is what makes a marriage last --more than passion or even sex!" - Simone Signoret
Thanks guys for your thoughts. This was something I saw elsewhere (btw, did anyone see the USA today article about infidelity in this day and age?), but it didn't get discussed. I was wondering what anyone thought about it. And before anyone says anything, this isn't an attack on moderators or anyone. It's simply a point of discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted By: deb13 FIB, just wanted to throw in my two cents here....when my xH told me that he wanted us to try to reconcile our marriage, Bill "let me go". But, he gave me one important word of advice...he told me not to settle. Bill knew what I was wanting/needing in a marriage and from a husband. He told me not to settle for anything less than what I wanted/needed. The whole time Bill & I were apart, I was seeing things in my xH that indicated he wasn't completely into the reconciliation. The words were there; but, not the actions. I kept thinking about what Bill told me and asking myself if I was settling. I knew at that point that I no longer wanted my xH the way he had been or the way he was at that time. He was saying all the right things, just not always doing them. Goes back to "actions speak louder than words" and "believe what they do, not what they say".
FIB, I probably would have settled...not because I loved my xH or because I wanted my marriage back; but, because I thought I had to honor my vows and my commitment to my family. Thank God that I found out he was living w/ another woman because that reconciliation was doomed for hell from the start and our marriage would never have survived.
FIB, you are so much stronger now than you were months ago! I am so proud of you and the way you have carried yourself through all of this. Please be sure of what YOU want and do NOT settle...you deserve true love and happiness. Now, I am treading on thin ice by saying that; but, please know that I am NOT trying to encourage you to walk away...I am just saying know what YOU want/need. Set your goals and work to achieve them. And, above anything else, love your little ones, as well as yourself.
deb
Deb, that IS treading more than on thin ice.
Love/Marriage is about giving, not about receiving, and filling our needs.
Our purpose here is SINGULAR. To save marriages. Please remember that.
My question...is that what love/marriage is about? Solely about given and not receiving? Who said that was true? In my opinion, FWIW, that IS NOT what it's about. In fact, it's pathologic to always be the one that gives while the other receives. Even Edith Bunker on occasion got something back from Archie.
Part of the problem with marriages is the perception, or maybe reality, that one partner never gave, or gave a disproportionately smaller amount. Is that not so? It seems standard WAW talk for them to relate how she gave up everything, did everything, and received nothing in return. If love/marriage is about giving, shouldn't she be the happiest person in the marriage since she's fulfilling the goal of marriage?
But I guess the question was whether you should ask for and know what you want and need in your life. Whether you should ask yourself, "why should I settle?" Have we distorted DBing to include "save yourself" as a portion of it? Is it wrong, once you start working on yourself and hopefully improving and getting your life to the point you feel complete (which I doubt MWD would argue is against the rules), to take a look at your spouse and say, "is there room in my life for this person?"
Your thoughts?
You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
Small expansion on above (if anyone's reading...although I don't mind just writing down thoughts) that I've been thinking: Is it wrong to suggest to someone that he/she should stand up for him/herself if their spouse is blatantly having an affair? For example, a spouse that basically says, "I'm spending the weekend over at my lover's place". I've always basically wrote that you don't have to take that and should enforce the boundaries...including packing up their stuff and leaving it for them to pick up. But that's not the spirit of giving...it's looking out for yourself. Kicking your spouse to the curb under those circumstances, and making them crawl through broken glass to win you back, is saying MY self-esteem is to important to me to tolerate this, and according to the initial post I was referencing, that's not what love/marriage is about. Or am I just trying to pick a fight with sg about that?
You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
My 2 cents are that the advice-giver might take into account the well-being of not just the LBS or the WAS, but also the R. Actually, all 3 simultaneously.
For example, if there's a tantruming toddler in a store, one could suggest that the mother (i.e., the LBS) give in to the toddler (the WAS) and give him the desired object (OW) to quiet him and end the tantrum (depression, low self-esteem, you name it). But we all know what would happen ==> more tantrums in the future. There tons of data backing that pattern up.
The mother could react in a very harsh manner, too, beating on the kid and verbally berating him until they get to the car, leaving him shaking and humiliated.
Firm limits and warm manner seem to be best. Set up those boundaries. "You're free to make your choices, but you'll also need to accept the consequences. I love you but your stuff will be packed for your pickup following your communicated choice (words or actions)."
In truth, no boundaries tend to lead to a very slow form of development or learning.
In other words, I'm with you. Suggest the boundary setting, for the good of the LBS, the WAS, and the R.
For example, if there's a tantruming toddler in a store, one could suggest that the mother (i.e., the LBS) give in to the toddler (the WAS) and give him the desired object (OW) to quiet him and end the tantrum (depression, low self-esteem, you name it). But we all know what would happen ==> more tantrums in the future. There tons of data backing that pattern up.
Perfect analogy Gabe!
Sometimes I have to remember that having gone through this I am somewhat jaded and the truth is that every person and relationship is different. We also need time to process, so I think that giving a pat answer can sometimes not only be cruel but flat out wrong.
Putting one life on hold and doing the same things over and over nets the same results, Michel wrote about this and we all know it. I don't like telling anyone how to live there life and I hate when people get on their high horse and gang up on posters. You can suggest if asked but basically I think it's most important to give support. Who's to say that what someone else is doing to survive is the wrong way. We're all just doing the best that we can.
Most times if these situations do reconcile themselves it takes a very longtime. In the meantime while we're supporting other posters, they are finding their own strength, which is something (no matter how hard we tried or how badly we want to) we can't give to them.
I think we might forget how overwhelming the number of voices encouraging a scraping of the R or M is during times of M probs. It is amazing when we pay attention. Just this week, I found myself eavesdropping on a couple of conversations where GFs were encouraging who they were talking to to dump the H and move on.
Perhaps a more central suggestion is the GAL or self-care, self-nurturance work, cause that's the recharging, reenergizing stuff needing to continue with life, parenting, work, DBing etc..., during those trying times.
Hope you are well. Looked for your thread but only found a locked one.
I'm going to write on my own thread just for the heck of it.
My babies are growing up. I will soon have a 17 year old and a 15 year old...and a step 15 year old and 12 year old. My oldest will graduate in 2010. It's just unbelievable. My kids have spent about 12 of those years with divorced parents. It didn't seem that long ago that they were just little guys, coming over for visitation. Those were hard days. I hope I've done right by my kids. I've tried making this process not seem weird. I've tried making it seem like they have two homes and it isn't visitation so much as time when I can spend parenting. I remember it was always important to me that my dad came to my sporting events, or whatever was going on. I realize now that it's important for me as well...I don't want to miss any of their life that I can share in.
I haven't been the kind of parent that has big deep talks with them...my parents weren't that way either. We've never sat down and had a heart to heart about how they feel about any of this. I don't know if they are scarred. They seem well adjusted. They both have lots of friends, they enjoy inviting their friends over (so I guess they aren't too embarrassed of dad), they still ask me to do stuff with them. They do well in school. They are active in their sports. Have typical boy interests. So, is it enough? Or will they have roadblocks in relationships? Is it bad parenting not to explore their feelings about this, 12 years after a whirlwind divorce?
Anyway, that was just idle musing I guess. And maybe fear. What if someday they say, "I thought you were a crappy dad...for x,y, and z. Why didn't we talk through this stuff?"
You cannot be lonely if you like the person you're alone with. Dr. Wayne Dyer
It is still not too late to have a heart to heart talk some day before they move out of the house.
Who knows, if you try to have such a talk, they may just get embarrased and say dad, can we talk about something else. I know when I was 16, my father nervously started the bird and the bees talk with my brother and I - we interrupted him and told him we know all the details so he does not need to continue with such embarrasing talk.
I dont think it is bad parenting to not have had a one on one talk concerning the divorced life. If you are anything like what I have read in your posts, I am sure you are a super dad that has set a fine example for his kids (and step kids).
I can't believe what I just read. You of all people should be confident in how you raised those boys. You're a great Father. I know that you have tried especially hard to do things differently. Have you ever missed a swim meet? How about all of those camps that you've taken them to? Even with the divorce you made concessions so that your boys could have their Dad in their life and you have been more than fair with their Mom, and if I know that much, what about all of the things that you provide them with that you haven't talked about?
You know the best thing that you have done is to show your kids what a good and loving relationship is all about. They see that. Are you just in a melacholy mood because time with them is flying by? Is that what this is all about? Cause I've got to tell you, if you are questioning your role as Dad, you're overthinking this!
