jethro, just my opinion - FORGET about going to that bar. I'm with shinybear - what in the world for??? Someone posted something that hit me recently - it you have to tell people you have changed, well, have you really? You don't have to convince anyone of anything; a person's behavior and actions over time speak loud and clear. Going to the bar seems silly to me, and if you are both happy, let it go. When you are both comfortable and sure about things, you really WON'T care, and letting go of resentment and anger are two things that will really show when a R is whole again. Who cares what OM thinks anyway?
Ahh...Bridget, I so much enjoy your poetic posts. You humble me, as I certain don't feel like an "ACE."
Quoting Bridget:Would it be possible for you to get your W's attention by somehow demonstrating that YOU are a hot commodity?
Make yourself "the babe" somehow.
Maybe sing a karaoke song in HER presence with ambiguous lyrics?
Well, I've been working out ever since the first bomb (10/01) and the muscles are pretty toned... In terms of singing...well, I play the guitar (about 15 years now), and believe me, singing would NOT lure people in my direction.
Quoting Bridget:Anyways, I love ya though I'm just a neighbor and we don't talk much. Thanks for your ACE db-ing!
Likewise!
Quoting Sage:I'm curious to hear more about what you mean by not really knowing w....could this be a good thing? a discovery process? kind of like dating and falling in love all over again?
What about pulling out those "expectations" and getting them on the proverbial table? You can figure out which ones are "reasonable" (whatever that means) and which are not (again). Are those expectations blocking you from enjoying what you have today, right now????
Hmm...this is a tough one, Sage. I'm just wondering if I'm trading one illusion for another. Let me explain.
For years I've been head over heels for my W, and she's made "unhealthy" decisions over the years that should have been big red flags...that should have "shown" me what she is capable of. Well, because of my infatuation, I chose to ignore those signals and live in an illusion of putting her on a pedestal and thinking she was incapable of doing X, Y, and Z because she married me and when two people marry, promises are made that CANNOT be broken. Well, we know where that got me.
So, the sh!t hits the fan, I begin to DB and see my own shortcomings. At the same time, I do my utmost to improve my R with my W because I had the tools at my disposal to do so. Heck, I began to feel like a DB zealot, chomping up every bit of information I could get my hands on! By reading how to use these tools I came to create an image in my mind of what a "true, healthy R" should be like. Well, I think I've created some utopian illusion of something I will NEVER be able to achieve. Rather than be happy with how things have progressed in my situation, I'm instead focusing on what's still missing... Thus, I imagine my situation, even with all of the associated sh!t, is likely much better than most peoples' Rs!
So, this leads me to not "knowing" my W. Since I've built this grand illusion of what I "thought" she was, with all of her previous deceptions, I now don't know who she really is. Does that make sense? It's rather hard to explain. In fact, she'd say she didn't know who she was too...which makes this ever more difficult!!! Part of it is my insecurities...what is she thinking...is she happy...will she have another A if things get tough...and so on. I guess, in a nutshell, it comes down to not trusting her...
I know that was verbose, but you asked.
Quoting lettie:FORGET about going to that bar.
I agree, lettie. I asked her last night WHY she wanted to go and she as much as admitted that it was a pride thing...but that she thinks about it less and less. She also said that when she first mentioned it months ago, it was also because she wanted to test her reaction to OM...I guess to see if she still had any feelings for him. Well, a couple of months ago she saw him by accident and told me she didn't feel ANYTHING...and was happy it happened. So, basically, it is a bit juvenile and I will not bring it up again...not that have other than last night.
SB, that book you mentioned was, in fact, the one my W has. Thought you'd want to know...
Oh that's great Jethro, there ARE a lot of books out there but this one is my top recommendation.
I have to address your feelings of not really knowing your W.
I've gone through and am still going through this very thing.
I, too, had a very idealized view of CJ for our M. I believed him to be VERY moral, almost prudish, very much a truthful, honest, stand-up reliable guy. A big time success at work, vice-president, world traveller, public speaker....
Well I HAD to reassess all of this in light of this past year. There were MONTHS when he seemed to be a complete and utter (scary) stranger to me.
I didn't know WHAT was real . Were all of those qualities I thought he possessed just a lie? Was our whole marriage a fraud? Was he trying to "be" something he was not for...me??? The world????
Now that it seems that CJ's MLC is easing and he's finding his way with school etc, he is not so much in flux. But I have had to take him off that pedestal and take a good hard look at the man....basically good, but not strongly motivated, somewhat lazy, a procrastinator...but still loving, kind, funny, smart...he does have values (which I strongly wondered about!).
So I THINK this is a process of actually getting to know the real him for the first time....it's a process for both of us, as like your W, CJ really didn't know who he was, and I believe is still in the process of finding out.
I understand what you said about not "knowing" W, even with the years you have spent together. It is a terrible feeling to share your life with someone and then to realize this. I liked what you said about being so infatuated with W that you down-played anything negative about her. Boy, that is so true. And the worst part is that we tend to lose ourselves when we put someone on a pedastal and allow anything and most everything to happen, looking the other way (me included). I really think that we have to stop that kind of thinking and behavior. It is detrimental to a marriage and a R, and I think that this is when the R becomes imbalanced. Too many people trying to reconcile go back to their old ways, with one trying too hard to make it work, being too passive, and the other in time taking advantage again, only to get tired of the R all over again. A "taker" in a R will most definitely take complete advantage of the "giver", and one person does all of the giving, the other all the taking in many cases. We have to think more of ourselves, even though we might not want to, and address what needs to be addressed. People really deep down want a strong, confident person in their life. About OM, hey, it is hard to get rid of anger and resentment, especially after being betrayed. I myself really have a problem with it, but I have it pretty much under control. It will go away for the most in time.
Quoting jethro: For years I've been head over heels for my W, and she's made "unhealthy" decisions over the years that should have been big red flags...that should have "shown" me what she is capable of. Well, because of my infatuation, I chose to ignore those signals and live in an illusion of putting her on a pedestal and thinking she was incapable of doing X, Y, and Z because she married me and when two people marry, promises are made that CANNOT be broken. Well, we know where that got me.
You've mentioned on my thread a couple of times that you shared the "destined to be cheated on" mindset. Do you consider that separate from what you've written above? (Like, it seems like you're saying that you had an image of w that was very positive despite some red flags. You also seem to have an "image" of m. that suggests that once promises are made they can't and won't be broken. So, how does the "gonna be cheated on and left" thing fit in?)
Do you think that everyone is capable of cheating on their spouse or that some people are and some people aren't?
Quote: So, the sh!t hits the fan, I begin to DB and see my own shortcomings. At the same time, I do my utmost to improve my R with my W because I had the tools at my disposal to do so. Heck, I began to feel like a DB zealot, chomping up every bit of information I could get my hands on! By reading how to use these tools I came to create an image in my mind of what a "true, healthy R" should be like. Well, I think I've created some utopian illusion of something I will NEVER be able to achieve. Rather than be happy with how things have progressed in my situation, I'm instead focusing on what's still missing... Thus, I imagine my situation, even with all of the associated sh!t, is likely much better than most peoples' Rs!
What does that picture look like? How is it different from what your image was before?
In general I would say that DB'ing (combined with "mars and venus" and a few other books on "letting go") has actually enabled me to get rid of my "image" of what m should be like and embrace the way that mine actually is. I DO get caught up sometimes in feeling like it should be A LOT easier for me and h to "talk" about r stuff. I dunno....I think it's that we have lots of years of bad talking to erase first...AND, we're probably NEVER gonna be big talkers anyway.
Have you done the "positives" thing? That really made a BIG difference for me in terms of viewing my m.
Quote: So, this leads me to not "knowing" my W. Since I've built this grand illusion of what I "thought" she was, with all of her previous deceptions, I now don't know who she really is. Does that make sense? It's rather hard to explain. In fact, she'd say she didn't know who she was too...which makes this ever more difficult!!! Part of it is my insecurities...what is she thinking...is she happy...will she have another A if things get tough...and so on. I guess, in a nutshell, it comes down to not trusting her...
So...let me ask you this (and forgive me if this sounds too simplistic). Do you think that there is a blueprint of your w (of everyone, I guess) and that if you had and understood that blueprint you could predict how she would act in all situations?
I can understand the yearning to KNOW what she's thinking, what will happen, if she's happy. There are days when I worry that h has lulled himself into what he'll eventually feel was a false sense of security and happiness...that he hasn't "learned" how to identify his unhappiness and deal with it constuctively and honestly, etc.
But, isn't that terribly limiting of h? (and w?) What about growth? What about learning?
I'm sorry for the wordy response....there's a part of me that thinks it understands what you are saying and can completely relate -- this is what I thought I knew, this is what happened to completely reverse that, this is what I think I know now, but do I?
There's another part of me that thinks that "things" and people are more dynamic than that. That there's no certainty that anyone will behave one way or another and that you can go with the "odds" but that in the long run, all you can do is be your best true self and hope that others are doing the same.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quoting SB:So I THINK this is a process of actually getting to know the real him for the first time....it's a process for both of us, as like your W, CJ really didn't know who he was, and I believe is still in the process of finding out.
Perhaps you're right, SB. I find it uncomfortable that I have to "re-learn" who my W is. Odd...
Quoting lettie:It is detrimental to a marriage and a R, and I think that this is when the R becomes imbalanced. Too many people trying to reconcile go back to their old ways, with one trying too hard to make it work, being too passive, and the other in time taking advantage again, only to get tired of the R all over again. A "taker" in a R will most definitely take complete advantage of the "giver", and one person does all of the giving, the other all the taking in many cases. We have to think more of ourselves, even though we might not want to, and address what needs to be addressed. People really deep down want a strong, confident person in their life.
Good points, lettie. It is true...balance is everything...the ying and the yang... I have put so much focus into making sure I'm doing the right thing for "us" that I've somewhat neglected to do the right thing for "me." Only recently have I begun to readjust... Thanks.
Quoting Sage:You've mentioned on my thread a couple of times that you shared the "destined to be cheated on" mindset. Do you consider that separate from what you've written above?
Oooo...thanks for pointing out this interesting contradiction. Hmmm... So, how can I simultaneously have had the "destined to be cheated on" mindset while also putting my W on a pedestal? That's a toughy, but a real juicy topic. I think I'd have to say that I truly loved my W and my love blinded me in some cases; however, the depth of that love was likely an illusion because I feared losing her (fear of abandonment from childhood), so I "chose" to overlook things. Yet my subconscious would only allow me to get away with overlooking certain things, and thus, I frequently had dreams about my W cheating on me. I think that's it...
Quoting Sage:Do you think that everyone is capable of cheating on their spouse or that some people are and some people aren't?
Well, I used to think that some people had characteristics that were inherently flawed, which would lead them to cheat, while others wouldn't...ever. Now, I think I'd have to say everyone is capable given the right set of circumstances. And yes, even myself.
Quoting Sage:What does that picture look like? How is it different from what your image was before?
That my W actually "acts" like she loves me. The best way I can put it is that she melts into me, gets that look in her eyes, etc. (which she did many years ago). You know what I mean. Interestingly enough, from my image before, I paid less attention because I didn't think she didn't love me. I simply came to the conclusion that she showed me this differently than I do her. I guess I need to kind of get back to that mindset while integrating what I've learned.
Quoting Sage:In general I would say that DB'ing (combined with "mars and venus" and a few other books on "letting go") has actually enabled me to get rid of my "image" of what m should be like and embrace the way that mine actually is.
It's a little different with me. Before I didn't know what a good M was and now I think I do. I just have to temper my unreal expectations with real ones. Through this I too can "embrace the way my M is."
Quoting Sage:Have you done the "positives" thing?
I started to, but I don't post every day. Perhaps I should...
Quoting Sage:Do you think that there is a blueprint of your w (of everyone, I guess) and that if you had and understood that blueprint you could predict how she would act in all situations?
Well, I was working off the assumption, that yes, there is a blueprint. Thing is, that's an issue of control...an issue of which I need to rid myself. Basically, I agree with what you are saying when you indicate that people are simply more dynamic and change/evolve over time.
So, my W continues to stay the path. In fact, I have to give her credit because she's on somewhat of a crusade to "figure herself out." Last weekend she went to a "Course in Miracles" seminar with my sister. Some of you guys probably know what this is about, but it's all positive stuff and emphasizes looking inward for answers, happiness is only gained with oneself, etc. It's quite spiritual...
For me, I've purposely tried to put OM out of my head. That's not to say I don't feel crummy at times, but I don't really bring it up with her much anymore. Things seem to be getting easier in that regard.
In this vein, my W said something to me interesting the other day...after her seminar. We were having an R talk and I told her that I thought everything in life has a purpose...even her A, but that I didn't want my view of that to make her think that her behavior was okay, 'cuz it wasn't. She made the remark to me, "I don't think it was okay. You have to forgive yourself for forgiving me." I thought about this poignent comment because it makes sense. Ethically (or rather, my ego), I cannot condone such atrocious behavior and I find myself resisting "letting go." I mean, I feel I've already forgiven her, but I still have this unsettled feeling inside me. This unsettled feeling, I think, is my conscience not wanting me to let myself forgive myself for forgiving her. I know, odd, but rang true for me.
In addition to the Course in Miracles stuff, she's also digging into that Anxiety book SB talked about on a previous post. As a result, last night she told me she's feeling less tense and doesn't have as many of the anxiety symptoms as before...
I also see her doing 180s without knowing she's doing them. She experimented a new method of disciplining our children this morning, which I thought was very creative...and effective.
So, as long as I can stay my course and she stays hers, I think we're good. I still have lots of "junk" to work through, but I think I see the light...
Quoting jethro: In this vein, my W said something to me interesting the other day...after her seminar. We were having an R talk and I told her that I thought everything in life has a purpose...even her A, but that I didn't want my view of that to make her think that her behavior was okay, 'cuz it wasn't. She made the remark to me, "I don't think it was okay. You have to forgive yourself for forgiving me." I thought about this poignent comment because it makes sense. Ethically (or rather, my ego), I cannot condone such atrocious behavior and I find myself resisting "letting go." I mean, I feel I've already forgiven her, but I still have this unsettled feeling inside me. This unsettled feeling, I think, is my conscience not wanting me to let myself forgive myself for forgiving her. I know, odd, but rang true for me.
Wow. What a tremendous insight by w!
I'm almost done with a book that somewhat addressed this topic for me (tho' nowhere near as concisely or pointedly as your w!). It's called "The Art of Forgiving" by Lewis Smedes.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Well, a couple of months ago she saw him by accident and told me she didn't feel ANYTHING...and was happy it happened. So, basically, it is a bit juvenile and I will not bring it up again...not that have other than last night. 
