Quoting jethro: I think maybe I have to do my damnedest to stop thinking about her A and concentrate on what we are doing today. I just get hung-up when I think that she had a full-blown A for over a year...a year she also put me through hell. jethro
I went through hell earlier this year, most of us have! I know it's hard not to think about - but that will ease over time. If you need to vent, do it HERE. Not on the wife, not asking questions over and over. She is with YOU, she is not with OM. Remember that.
Quoting Dagny: You mentioned expectations you have of her behavior. Have you told her those? Have you told her what actions you need from her? Jackie
I agree!!! I also wonder if maybe she'll get a little closer to you if you drop the OM talk. Not sure, but maybe you should even say that. "I know I've been a bit obsessive about the OM, it's been hurtful to me but I'm going to try to move past that now". And then let her know what you want for your R. Just nicely, calmly. Find out what she wants. Both of you might want some different things, and that is something you have to figure out - ways to incorporate stuff that will make you both happy and fulfilled.
Before I respond to everyone's questions and suggestions, I just want to say that I told my W (via e-mail...unfortunately...because she asked while I was at work and I'm not free to talk here) that I agreed with her that I was getting hung up on OM and that I would do my best to not bring it up any longer. Interestingly, although I didn't write it in the e-mail, she mentioned the fact that she thinks that I think she doesn't love me. (Weird...because it was as though she read my post and was responding to that portion of it...hmmm...makes me wonder. She does know the site...naw...I don't think she's peeking.) In any case, she went on to say that everyone's love evolves and it's not the same as it was in the beginning (of our R)...and that her love has evolved into something else...but that something else isn't bad. That she feels different types of love for me at different times...that she doesn't ALWAYS feel "that" love for me because feelings fluctuate...but she does feel it sometimes.
What do you guys think of this? I am still unsure how to take this information. It seems reasonable, but...
Quoting SB:"we need to look to the future, not the past!"
Jeez...if I had a $1 every time my W said that to me...
Quoting JJ:Make sure you start "letting" her step up to the R some more. Make sure that YOU don't work on it so hard that there's nothing left for her to do. She may not do this EXACTLY the way you want it done, but from what I've seen with you two here so far, she'll probably pick up some of the slack.
Thanks, JJ. Good idea. I've been trying this more lately, but I still feel compelled to take charge at times. I think she is coming to the plate ever so slowly.
Quoting holdingon:Have you read After the Affair? I found that book very hopeful (my H still involved with OW ) and might be helpful to you. Just a thought.
Yes, I bought it as soon as I found out about her A. It was difficult to read, but made a lot of sense. I have suggested to my W that she read it so she knows where I'm coming from, but alas, she has not. I think she's afraid of the pain because she's read some of DR and LL when I've asked.
Quoting T2:must be "secret" handbooks out there that each of us roll players are doomed to follow.
Well, when I find it I'll send you a copy.
Quoting T2:let me apologize to Jethro for stealing this thread for a minute to respond to this post.
No prob, T2. I have to say your description of "ignoring" things to just try and make sure you got your M back together sounds quite familiar. I think, as betrayed Ses, we have to trust our instincts to determine whether our Ses are genuinely working on our Rs. We have to trust ourselves, our instincts, when we chose to ignore them in the past when our Ses were having their As. I think this particular transition is difficult.
Hi LL. Why are you picking on me? God bless you.
Quoting LL:why do we keep these score cards?
It's less keeping a score card than it is that I put more effort into nurturing our R than she does. I feel I take her feelings more into consideration than she does me. Does that make sense? So the dishes/trash analogy isn't quite what I'm talking about; however, I will admit that those thoughts DO cross my mind.
Quoting LL:Jethro are you taking it personally when w doesn't give as much as you think she should to you?
I suppose you could call it "personal." I get frustrated with the frequent apathetic behavior. I understand we have on days and off days, but she'll be "off" until I call her on it. Then she'll be "on" for a while until the cycle repeats.
Quoting LL:what do you mean by "how she behaved in the past"? do you treat her the same as you did in the past? do you look at her the same way? do you love her any less than you did before. (I'm afraid of what the answer to the last one will be)
She behaved like she "loved" me more adoringly in the past (that's the best way I can of to put it). I suppose I treat her similarly in some ways and differently in another. I've become more aware and tolerant. I DO NOT look at her the same way. The pedistal has fallen and she's truly human now. Ahh...do I love her less? I'm not sure. I think it's just changed. Again, the realization that this person is fallable has broken what I think was somewhat of a fantasy that I've had for years.
Quoting LL:ok then, what is it you are "expecting" in return that you aren't getting in some form or another?
I still come back to her wanting to love me in a more adoringly way, like she used to.
Quoting LL:let's define your "needs" vs. your "wants" and see if we can't all come up with some plan to go about getting them met.
Well, when it comes down to it, what do all of us "need" really? She's been pretty good about meeting my needs/wants as of late...when reminded. Thing is, the dynamic with us is she goes into pull-back mode, which (unfortunately, but understandably) sends up red flags everywhere. I get uncomfortable in our R because she's less present, less soft, more distant, less loving, less communicative, etc. This is typically when I "remind" her...
Quoting LL:she didn't want to be with you why the heck would she be there...why would she call you like she did yesterday to see how you were doing, why would she even make the slightest attempt at fixing things. If she didn't want to be with you I doubt you'd even get half of what you're getting now.
Agreed.
Quoting LL:she can't be afraid of loosing you if you are always so concerned with whether or not she wants to be with you. when you stop being afraid to loose her maybe she'll then show you some of that jeolousy.
HA!!! Good point!
Quoting Jackie:You mentioned expectations you have of her behavior. Have you told her those? Have you told her what actions you need from her?
Ohh...yes...I'm pretty verbal about these things.
Quoting DFB: also wonder if maybe she'll get a little closer to you if you drop the OM talk. Not sure, but maybe you should even say that. "I know I've been a bit obsessive about the OM, it's been hurtful to me but I'm going to try to move past that now". And then let her know what you want for your R. Just nicely, calmly. Find out what she wants.
I told her I'd cool off on OM man talk yesterday, DFB. I do have to say, you bring up a very interesting point about asking what her needs are. I've been doing things for her that she likes (and has mentioned in the past), but perhaps it's time for a revisit. I think, in a way, I've been a bit self-centered lately. Thanks, DFB.
Quote: Hi LL. Why are you picking on me? God bless you.
you want the truth? cause it's easy...and because the things you say are so damn close to what I say and feel that in "picking on you" I am in a sense delivering myself a good whack with the 2x4 too. someone (I think it was our good buddy jj) always asked me if I were reading my posts as someone elses what advice would I give them, my thought was always..I'd tell her to run and run fast...but that is simply because I cannot look totally objectivley at my own sit...and since alot of what you feel and hear from w is so very close to what I feel and hear from h I can kill two birds with one stone so to speak.
The other reason....you've "picked" on me plenty in the past and I've always appreciated it...so I'm just returning the favor.
Hi Jethro, Well it looks like I've come to the "party" a bit late, but wanted to give a slightly different slant.
I'm going to use the analogy of a garden here. You've worked hard so that those plants are vibrant with loads of buds, and it does take constant nurturing to bear blossoms and fruit, but it also takes the right balance too. It takes the right amount of water, food, sunshine, pruning, etc...
No doubt jethro you work hard at M, but some of the effort may not be as effective as others. You say your W returns it in spurts. What were you doing just before or during those spurts? Is it something you were doing different than during her lulls.? What can you do to nurture those spurts to remain around for a while longer? What can you do to nurture those endearing feeling that you wish to receive.
In some ways it sounds like your W settles down into a routine and just coasts. Like dfb said, come up with some new ways to enjoy some time together. What can you differently that can break that routine and respark those endearing feeling towards you? Are there things the both of you say you want to do, but keep putting off? ... like maybe a resturant you haven't been to before and keep saying you would like to try when ever you pass by it? Does she mention some stuff she would like to do? (My W just mentioned she would like to take up playing Horse-shoes together?) Does she like getting little suprises now and again? Flowers? Balloon and a card? Her favorite sweets? Tickets to a show/concert? ...
Jethro, it not all about it being constant work, but the right kind of effort to bring about the results you want. Otherwise, as you say ... you tire of it, no longer wanting to water or feed the garden, and then it starts to wither.
... but also its as JJ says too of coarse he's always right and gave me some similar advise recently) , once you strike upon the correct formula of nurturing that brings about the blossoms and fruit, then set back and smell the flowers for a while ... and enjoy a walk thru the garden ... then you will reap the rewards of all your efforts.
As I'm discovering, when I get down about the way things are currently, its a telltale sign it time for a change in pace. Time to find something new to do or try.
... and to help eliminate the resentment of being the first to change or the preception that you are working on it more ... remember ... the feelings you have right now are your miscontent. You own that ... not your spouse. Its up to you to find the solution to your miscontent, not your spouse's. You have to take ownership of your happiness and not burdent your spouse with having to try to provide it. Then the reward of all your efforts is in sharing your happiness her and have her sharing her's with you. Isn't this jethro, ultimately what you are striving for?
As a bit of a gardener myself I appreciate the analogy.
One thing I think I'll take care of FOR Jethro is this, tell me if I'm wrong Dude:
What J does before these "spurts" of his W's, is become so dispondent with her growing apathy that he REMINDS her that she needs to be working on the M. Right, J?
So it's not like he's just doing some day to day stuff differently that brings on these improvements. Now, that WOULD be frustrating, no?
Short term memory problems, can't remember what else I was gonna post!
Quoting LL:since alot of what you feel and hear from w is so very close to what I feel and hear from h I can kill two birds with one stone so to speak.
Yeah...I hear ya on that one...
Quoting KAW:You say your W returns it in spurts. What were you doing just before or during those spurts?
Well, I have to say that SB answered this pretty accurately: "What J does before these "spurts" of his W's, is become so dispondent with her growing apathy that he REMINDS her that she needs to be working on the M. Right, J? So it's not like he's just doing some day to day stuff differently that brings on these improvements. Now, that WOULD be frustrating, no?"
Yes, and at the same time I remind her I tell her I really dislike having to remind her.
So, yes she likes to coast. Thing is, like many people, she gets lost in the day to day stuff. Where I would buy a little gift for her or do something like you suggested, KAW, she won't...or just doesn't think about it. Now, to her credit, she does make a point of doing other things, but they seem more like a chore to her...at least that's MY perception.
Frankly, I just don't know where I stand any longer. She's more attentive than she has been for a long time, but she's a "hard" person that keeps "barriers." These barriers are real hard to break through...if I can break through them at all. She just has a general coldness...as though our R is business-like. Now, I have a feeling my perception is a bit more harsh than the reality of the situation, but... We have great sex, we laugh together, enjoy each other's company, talk (for the most part), but she doesn't "melt" into me. Do you know what I mean? It's that damn barrier.
For example, all day yesterday she was pretty cold. Not mean...just cold. Our day was busy 'cuz it was her mom's b-day and her folks were coming over for dinner...so there were preparations. I asked what was wrong and she said she just felt tense. Maybe she was tense about getting all of this junk together. Heck, it wasn't like I wasn't helping. However, she seems to very frequently feel tense...and she will admit this herself. Now, I try to probe, but she won't really talk to me about it...and I'm not sure why. It's possible she doesn't know why she feels tense, maybe it's about OM, maybe it's about being a W and mother with responsibilities, her childhood...who knows.
I suppose that this tenseness, keeps the barrier up, and thus, keeps me at a distance. I understand this is hers to deal with, but am I going to have to settle for this for the rest of my life...this coldness? This lack of intimacy? Ironically enough, she's frustrated with it too, but is only willing to do so much to rid herself of it.
So, I think this is where her apathy comes from. When I think about it, it's a vicious cycle, as her love language is acts of service. I perform act after act to try and reduce her stress, make her feel less tense, just so I can experience some "softness." I work hard at this, and when I see her apathetic about working on our R...it becomes frustrating.
You guys have any suggestions? 180s won't work here, as it's really her own sh!t that she has to deal with...as it has always been. The irony here is that she has always complained (her biggest complaint) about how tense I am (was), yet she's the one that continues to propagate it...as I have significantly mellowed out via DBing and such.
Quote: You guys have any suggestions? 180s won't work here, as it's really her own sh!t that she has to deal with...as it has always been.
perhaps the best 180 you could possibly do would be to recognize that it is HER [censored], remind yourself that it has nothing to do with you and get back to laughing and having great sex and all that other great stuff you mentioned.
Quote: Frankly, I just don't know where I stand any longer. She's more attentive than she has been for a long time, but she's a "hard" person that keeps "barriers." These barriers are real hard to break through...if I can break through them at all. She just has a general coldness...as though our R is business-like. Now, I have a feeling my perception is a bit more harsh than the reality of the situation, but... We have great sex, we laugh together, enjoy each other's company, talk (for the most part), but she doesn't "melt" into me. Do you know what I mean? It's that damn barrier.
Well put, and I've been feeling the same way the last few weeks. When you figure it all out, let me know, eh? Thanks.
God bless you.
, once you strike upon the correct formula of nurturing that brings about the blossoms and fruit, then set back and smell the flowers for a while ... and enjoy a walk thru the garden ... then you will reap the rewards of all your efforts.
) 
