And the day came ...

[sage]

What the hell did we women do to ourselves in the last gy enerations? Ok, now we can feel free to express the masculine aspects of our personalities and still struggle to suppress some of the female aspects to be able to survive in the workplace....

But when did we become afraid to be vulnerable? Why is it coming out sideways (in sarcasm and critisism, etc.) instead of outright and honest?

In my sitch, my career choice (totally male dominated) + a bitter, angry mother + a weak-willed father + my own relentless need to feel safe has resulted in my spending almost all of my time and energy creating an elaborate safety net for myself all the while communicating for h. a variety of things: you can't take care of me right, I won't let you take care of me, I won't let you take advantage of me, etc.

And what the heck have we done to our men? We've advanced in many ways, but they are lost...feeling like they don't know how to be men anymore.

"Men are from Mars..." was tremendous eye opener for me in terms of the things that I had done in my m. to essentially destroy my h's spirit.

We can't help them learn how to be intimate by demanding it or nagging them to do it. We sure can't show them how to be honestly vulnerable with us if we're showing bad examples of it ourselves.

So this is where I am right now...figuring out how to ask for reassurance w/o sending the message that he's doing it wrong + being vulnerable w/o being angry at him.

Sage

[sage]

So, my suggestion is that you try taking your H's advice that you asked for

Acorn -- I'm so glad to see you back!

I like your advice! (especially since it reinforces exactly what h. would appreciate, I'm sure).

I'll take his advice.
I'll be direct.
I wll stop taking everything so freakin' personally!

Sage

[lostlove]

I wll stop taking everything so freakin' personally!

this one has been a huge huge huge HUGE help for me.

it's not all that easy at first, BUT when you do realize that every little quirk, bad mood, distant feeling etc isn't directly related to how your spouse if feeling about you at the time...brings about a great sense of peace.

let's get back on track with some positive stuff here!! I'm sure if you look it's still there...just sitting uder the surface.

LL

[sage]

Happy1 --

Thanks so much for the thoughtful reply. I think that you've hit the nail on the head that something in my behavior needs to change in order to get things to be different. Simply put, I've been doing "more of the same" for months in terms of seeking reassurance from h. re. ow and it's just not working. As unfair as it feels to me (and whooboy does it, sometimes!), I'm really NOT getting what I want by my current actions AND I may be driving him away (or at least preventing us from moving forward) by my actions.

I'm not saying I'm not "entitled" (whatever that means) to reassurance. Or fidelity. Or sometimes him just giving me what I need because I've asked. or answers. or whatever.

"entitled" or not, I'm not getting the above by whatever I'm doing now. It's time for a change.

Basically, I am thinking that if I was your H, he is feeling that he knows about the OW and how wrong it was and everytime something goes wrong you are going to hang this over his head and pack bags.

well....I've only pulled out the suitcase once and it WAS after he threw around the D word...but I do see your point.

My fear is that h. is never going to feel forgiven. well, maybe my ROOT fear is that I'm never going to totally forgive.

I'm COMPLETELY unproud of this but my unforgiving nature is focused on wanting the ow to pay, pay, pay. AND, feeling as though if they are still in contact she is WINNING.

I gotta, gotta, gotta release this. I haven't come up with the magic bullet yet. I'm gonna figure it out though.

Until I can...I have to act "as if" ... stop dragging h. through the muck of my fears.

I know this is hard, but can you try to make it about his needs..the need to know you are not going to berate him. I know you aplogized before but your reoccuring actions totally deflate the apology.

Totally on target! My best DB success came when I was able to focus on his needs...and you know what??? My needs got met, too, they just weren't where I focused my energies FIRST.

What are his needs?
To be forgiven. To be trusted. To not be controlled. To be allowed to show me that he is trustworthy. To feel appreciated. To feel needed. To feel competent. To be loved. To be given the freedom to make his own mistakes BUT for me to have faith that he'll do the right thing. To feel as though what he's doing is good, is enough, is satisfying. To feel as though he is a good partner to me. To feel as though as though he makes me happy.

Can you ACT as IF for one week like you are honeymooners again? I mean really let it go the OW and focus on you both. Really try. I understand that you feel hurt and unappreciated and unloved to the level you deserve but to be honest you are not showing him any reason to act differently if is going to be the same thing over and over.

I am looking from H perspective and if you were to say to me I need your help getting over the A, I would say that is YOUR issue and that there in lies the problem. If you let it go then I can start to feel safe with you to know you love me and then I will show you.

I like your plan...I think it needs to be longer than a week, though....if only because we're recently coming off of this bad time...I think I need to build up more of a "reserve" -- though not so long that by the time I ask, I'm resentful and afraid and ...

If you show him strong and secure and that you are better than any other woman he may feel like reciprocating and THEN you can ask for more help from him. Now is not the time. Take a week or so to get the scene set and then ASK.

Ah, the essence of DB'ing. You've really got it!

Thanks again for the guidance.

Sage

[sage]

Sage, really, the majority of your posts prior to this last glitch have been amazingly positive. Are you SURE he's been reading them? If he has, how can he NOT see that that night WAS just a backslide and not a catastrophe?

hey SB -- I think my h. is really, really, really sensitive to not feeling trusted...to not feeling appreciated...to feeling as though I will never be happy, what he does will never be good enough. Why? I dunno. No doubt it's partly because of how I've treated him for our m. Does it go back further than that? Can't say.

I DO think it's gonna take lots and lots and lots of appreciating him, loving him, etc. to counteract a show of anger/frustration/untrusting on my part.

He may never be at the point where he can respond to my need for reassurance w/o feeling as though it's an attack. OTOH, I've been deeply wrong before about his "limits" (goodness, how 'holier than thou' I was!) for loving me, connecting with me, etc.

I need to love him with all my might. And I need to love myself too -- reassure myself -- shore up myself -- strengthen myself. I'll show him my vulnerability but not from anger -- from the place that it's so true -- that he is capable and just the right person to alleviate my fears. If he recoils, well, I'll comfort myself.

In the meantime, I need to figure out how to ask for what I need without it always seeming like a judgement...

Sage

[sage]

let's get back on track with some positive stuff here!! I'm sure if you look it's still there...just sitting uder the surface.

So...the weekend straightened itself out. As I mentioned before, Friday was not great re. h. Saturday he called my cell while I was in class which I took as an opening...called him back, left a message and asked if he wanted to go to a movie that night. He did. We were still a bit tentative with each other but things have progressed well from there...spent a bunch of time together yesterday afternoon and last night, too.

what went well:
1. h. made a bunch of positive comments/compliments to me yesterday

2. h told me he loved me multiple times on sat

3. we enjoyed our afternoon and evening yesterday despite all the horrendous rain.

Sage

[Caz]

Sage,

I'm hoping your week will go better starting today. How was class? I'm sure you need a few hours to recoup from all of that intensive training.

I read Happy1's suggestions. Part of me agrees with what Happy1 recommends, but the other part of me rebels. I would lean more to trying the suggestions of acting as if and meeting H's needs. Since this is a different approach than you would normally take, maybe the results would be more apparent.

Sage, why do we have to forget about the OW in our H's lives? Were you insecure in your H's love before OW? Or did the insecurity start after? I think this is key to how you approach handling the insecurity.

Question for Happy1. Why is the OW or insecurity 'Sage's" issue only? My H said something similar to me a while back. That I needed to deal with my insecurity regarding OW's. I don't understand. H said that, he came home every night, his paycheck went into the joint acct, he paid the bills and I should be concerned about making him "want" to come home. Is this a gender difference? Thanks.

Sage, I'm thinking of you today. I hope your PMA stays upbeat and you try the new technique.

One step closer. Caz

[sage]

Here's my horoscope for today:

From today, everything is going to be different. You are waking up from a dream and that, all on its own, is a change to celebrate. Suddenly, your head is clear, you can distinguish fact from fantasy and you are no longer living in false fear or false hope. That though, is only the half of it. Now look at what you're waking up to! There's something you have almost forgotten yet it is something exciting, innovative, meaningful and important. Make that the focus of at least your next few days, if not much longer! All the recent drama has been happening for a reason, as soon you will see.

Sage

[sage]

Caz -- Hey! Now that I'm back at work I have access to the net again...I'll send you an email later today.

The class was fantastic -- I have 1 more this coming friday plus a bunch of work to do in the meantime. I'm getting my MBA ... this class was about evaluating companies as "triple bottom line" -- that is, on the "business" side but also the societal and environmental impact that the company has....my career goal is to move out of engineering and apply my business skills to improving the efficiency of non-profits...I've been volunteering at different jobs for more than a decade and in general think that many non-profits could serve more of the needy population and with a higher quality of service if they were taught to apply financial and managerial models. Problem is is that most social organizations are SO BUSY doing their jobs (understaffed, underpaid, etc) that they don't have time to strategize.

wow. can you tell that I'm passionate about this??? I am.

Sage, why do we have to forget about the OW in our H's lives? Were you insecure in your H's love before OW? Or did the insecurity start after? I think this is key to how you approach handling the insecurity.

Caz, I was VERY insecure before ow came along...questioned my h's love for me...his ability to love me in the way that I needed...questioned his fidelity, etc.

I put h. through a lot.

That's why I've sometimes compared my healing process to taking a drink from a fire hydrant...I have to learn how to trust and heal and forgive in this crappy sitch NOT having the sense of trust to fall back on from before.

Or would it have been worse if I had trusted and then been betrayed????

Why is the OW or insecurity 'Sage's" issue only?

I don't think that Happy1 is saying that it is...I think Happy is reiforcing the DB tenet that I can only change my behavior + not doing more of the same. In other words, yah, in a perfect world, h would be doing exactly what I'm asking him for...reassuring me...whatever...and I'd be healing on a faster pace...maybe even his timetable...whatever. Point is, I'm not getting what I want through my current behavior...it's time to make a change.

I used to feel as though h. never opened up to me...never did stuff for me. I complained and complained and complained and never got anywhere. Then I found DB'ing and tried some new stuff (listening more, not always making plans, etc) and voila -- h opens up more and more...makes plans for us...etc.

I think that the reassurance stuff could fall into the same category.

Have you read "men are from mars..."? It might help you understand your h's stance more...

Sage

[Jeannine]

"1. h. made a bunch of positive comments/compliments to me yesterday

2. h told me he loved me multiple times on sat

3. we enjoyed our afternoon and evening yesterday despite all the horrendous rain."


I'm also glad to hear that you are not going to dismiss your need for reassurance but instead work on a different way in getting it.

I know that the unhappy incident that occured the other night is being referred to as a "backslide", however, in my opinion, I see it more as an event of powerful proportions.

It's kind of like unclogging a stopped up drain. It's a bit messy and it will make you sweat, but when it's over, the water begins to flow.

I think that the real danger here is in what happens after the "unclogging". You both seem to be handling it well and hopefully your H will be a little more sensitve to some of your needs now.

Jeannine