What the hell did we women do to ourselves in the last gy enerations? Ok, now we can feel free to express the masculine aspects of our personalities and still struggle to suppress some of the female aspects to be able to survive in the workplace....
But when did we become afraid to be vulnerable? Why is it coming out sideways (in sarcasm and critisism, etc.) instead of outright and honest?
And what the heck have we done to our men? We've advanced in many ways, but they are lost...feeling like they don't know how to be men anymore. I really see it strongly in my culture because, even though we were more egalitarian than most cultures, it was only a few generations back that our men were protectors, providers, and warriors.
Now things have changed drastically. We've got to remember the best parts of being feminine--the ability to emotionally connect--and gor back to help our men along! We can't help them learn how to be intimate by demanding it or nagging them to do it. We sure can't show them how to be honestly vulnerable with us if we're showing bad examples of it ourselves.
There's a Dudley DoRight in every guy that wants to be a hero. I'm going to learn how to let myself be rescued every once in awhile ("I'll save you Sweet Nell!") and afterward, keep on with the gentle work of pulling that man out of himself so he can be more intimate with me.
And I think I'll show equal appreciation for both things.
two steps forward one step back two steps forward...
you get my drift...
it's okay sage. you apologized for your part ~ i know for me, apologies defintely mean more now than they have in a good long while...
every book i read says that reconcilitaion wont work unless the straying spouse is truly sorry and wants to make the marriage work
has H ever said these things? maybe he's going through some doubt? maybe what you said and did shook him up enough to rethink his part in the reconciliation...
Quoting charcoal: every book i read says that reconcilitaion wont work unless the straying spouse is truly sorry and wants to make the marriage work
has H ever said these things?
h has apologized on a few occasions. h has never expressed a recommitment to our m. in March, h said he wasn't sure if he wanted to be m. and, of course, two nights ago he brought up D. Not sure how serious he was about that or if it was for effect.
when asked what I did to contribute to his a. h said "nothing" -- but then he did intersperse some things in just general conversation -- I was angry all the time, he thought our marriage was over, that I didn't want it.
h. will not talk about what to do if he starts feeling those things again. No "gameplan" so to speak.
so that's where I am.
seems to me if we can't talk about what caused it, can't talk about a commitment to it not happening again and can't talk about what to do if we were to find ourselves in that sitch, how we'd get out of it...well...that's where I get stuck. The actions are wonderful...I want the words, too.
I want to hear that h. wants to be m. to me.
I suspect he doesn't know if he does. so, in that sense, I guess I'm glad he hasn't said it if it's not true.
Some babysteps last night....bought thai food for two (me), a surprise bag of whoopie pies (him). we watched a tv show together. a few caresses on my head. no kiss good night but I did give him a kiss this morning on my way out.
no response to the apology.
our internet is down at home. I think h. connected to aol with his laptop, though.
I'm at school today and tomorrow -- probably low posting days....
yikes. now I feel depressed for the stuff I haven't heard. rats.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
______________________________________ h has apologized on a few occasions. h has never expressed a recommitment to our m. in March, h said he wasn't sure if he wanted to be m. and, of course, two nights ago he brought up D. Not sure how serious he was about that or if it was for effect. ________________________________________
It's a quandry isn't it? One waiting to see if things get better before expressing recommittment and the other afraid because they don't feel safe until there is recommittment.
I'm not sure how to deal with breaking out of the cycle. I wish I could pass on something of value, but as you know, I'm in the same predicament.
For me the "let's see how it goes" business is more about their comfort level than ours. Working on our R before dealing with the huge issues in the aftermath of an A has often felt like we're painting the house up all pretty but ignoring the cracks still in the foundation.
Quoting talitsa: ______________________________________ ___________________________ For me the "let's see how it goes" business is more about their comfort level than ours. Working on our R before dealing with the huge issues in the aftermath of an A has often felt like we're painting the house up all pretty but ignoring the cracks still in the foundation.
when I'm having a hard time, I share this view about the painting/cracks in the foundation -- mostly around the fundamental issues that I mentioned this morning -- communication, the horrible cycle of needing reassurance/feeling as though that's controlling behavior.
when I REALLY look at the impact of DB'ing on my m, though, I'm amazed at the wonderful progress that we've made -- h is talking, sharing, participating -- I'm listening more, calmed down, etc. I actually think that we've managed to add to our foundation in a way that we never have before. I guess I just get impatient. and scared.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quote: when I REALLY look at the impact of DB'ing on my m, though, I'm amazed at the wonderful progress that we've made -- h is talking, sharing, participating -- I'm listening more, calmed down, etc. I actually think that we've managed to add to our foundation in a way that we never have before.
that sound just about right to me sage,
in dbing we've become better listeners...better partners...have gained an understanding of how a r works when it works well...we are practicing all these "new" concepts in the day to day...the mundane...the painting of the house...we are practicing with the small stuff (ie when h made something your responsibility, you at first were bothered but then came to accept and understand and appreciate it)
we have to paint the house...keep up with the general housekeeping...learn to simply peacefully coexist BEFORE we can tackle the "issues" sometimes the "issues" work themselves out in the interum...the ones that linger...if we wait to address them...we will have a stronger grasp on the day to day...we'll be more connected with our s and therefore will be in a much better place to deal with the "stuff"
I rambled an awful lot there...hope it makes sense to you.
Hi Sage. I know you've been going through a rough patch lately...and I'm sorry. I think, for now, you found a solution...
Quote: when I REALLY look at the impact of DB'ing on my m, though, I'm amazed at the wonderful progress that we've made -- h is talking, sharing, participating -- I'm listening more, calmed down, etc. I actually think that we've managed to add to our foundation in a way that we never have before. I guess I just get impatient. and scared.
If I go back and really think about my sitch, our R (post-A) redeveloped in very gradual stages... Every so slowly, each day, she became more present and showed me (without really saying) that she cared. It was like, day-to-day there were subatomic steps with big steps every once in a while (funny...I get this picture of a line graph in my head...must be the ANALyst in me ).
In any case, I saw previously how you were jealous with my recent breakthrough. I remember feeling the same way some months ago about Lisakate's breakthough where her H had to pull the car over to the side of the road because he FINALLY realized what he had done with his As. My point here is that everything takes time. I know you want vindication, reassurance, etc., but I simply think it takes some of our Ses longer to come around than others. Heck, it took six months after finding out about my W's A for me to have this breakthough, but she's been in WA-mode since 10-01...
Really, I see similarities between your H and LL's...cringing at R talks, not reading books she suggested, not wanting to go to a C. It has taken her (and her H) some time to get to the point where they are today).
So, I guess I'm suggesting that you continue to be patient for a little while longer. But that is part 1.
Part 2 is a question: May I ask why you apologized for the other night? I mean, it's entirely reasonable that you ask to talk about the A. It seems from your past posts that whenever you bring up a sensitive subject with your H you end up apologizing for it later because he reacts in a way that tells you NOT to bring it up and it disrupts the flow of things. It's like you're gun-shy (not that all of us aren't). My concern is that even though you are justified in bringing up some of these issues, when you apologize your H gets the message from you that you shouldn't have brought it up in the first place and that you're sorry for even broaching the subject. As a result, he gets ticked every time the subject comes up...even if you approach it in a reasonable way. Does that make sense?
It will be uncomfortable, but can you simply tell him that you need to talk about this...that it's the only way to get through this crap and move on? Given his previous reactions, he'll push back, but maybe you need to push too? Frankly, it is NOT okay that he had an A. It is NOT okay that he's unwilling to discuss it with you. I guess we all have to face our demons, Sage. Maybe your H gets defensive with you because he's yet unwilling to face those demons yet?
Quote: Maybe your H gets defensive with you because he's yet unwilling to face those demons yet?
not meaning to denounce what youre trying to say jethro as your words are often very wise...
since you pointed out the similarities you see in sage's h and mine..I will share a few things here...
at first (when h first came home that is...NOT first after disclosure of ow) or talk was open game...r talk was open game...ow talk was open game but a tad uncomfortable for both of us.
as time went on or talk was not taken well... r talk ok if delivered in a positive manner..reinforcing..thank you for this or that..it makes me feel good when you this or that..keeping I don't like this or that's to a minimum
r talks became a bad thing...seemed to push us further apart..h would get defensive...I would feel unheard..bla bla bla yuck...I wanted to talk about it..felt like I needed to talk about it and figured it would be best to talk with h. h didn't see it that way. so I talked to my c...I talked to you guys...and on occasion delivered the talk in his direction...needless to say it still wasn't taken well.
in focussing on the positives and letting h know that there are positives he has become more comfortable and talks are more comfortable for him...in asking about things..I do not accuse or imply accusation and I tend to get more positive from him than I bargained for.
here's a though...lesson learned from 4 year old son... if he wants something from me..and asks nicely and is happy when he asks I am happy to obliged and do my best to meet his request...when he is whiney, grumpy, frustrated etc...I am not as happy to meet his request. works kinda the same way in the adult world no??
shhhh...I'm sitting in class! we're doing stuff on our laptops so I'm under cover here...
I really do think that building up the positive stuff will eventually have a positive impact on the overall health of my m. I guess the issue is that I get impatient ... well...that and terrified as I've mentioned a bunch of times! I think that's what happened the other night...I've been feeling impatient for h. to "overtly" participate more fully coupled with anger and fear over thoughts that the ow is still present.
AS for the apology -- well, to be honest, I wasn't apologizing for needing reassurance OR for needing to talk about the a. what I was apologizing for was the timing of my outburst and a few things that I said and did -- pulling out a suitcase, etc.
I know for certain that I need to learn how to bring up my needs for discussion and clarity in a much better way. Problem is, that my need for reassurance is an emotional response...it's not when PMA is high and I'm feeling aok. It's in the darkness of night...when I'm down or demoralized. Hmmm...maybe h and I should be addressing these q's before things come to a boil.
anyway, I was heartened to see some babysteps last night but I'm missing h -- no calls, no emails for a couple of days now...bummer.
Sage
PS I'm so happy for both of you re. the positive movement in your sitchs. In both cases, it seems to me to be a byproduct of patience and looking at the positives and great DB'ing!
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Oh dear, Sage, I think I kind of "spoke" out of my a$$ this morning with my post, as I forgot about YOU packing the suitcase! AHHH!!! Bad me...I apologize... You know, I'm at work, doing stuff in between, so sometimes I miss certain things.
Quote: no calls, no emails for a couple of days now...bummer.
In any case, I wouldn't worry too much about not getting an overt response from your H, as it does take a few days for our Ses to process certain things said. I noticed a pattern of my W acting distant for a couple days after having a deep R talk, but then she'd come back even stronger.
I suppose it comes down to you holding off for a bit while your H processes everything that's transpired. Soon enough, I expect you'll be able to hear and talk more about what to do to heal things even further. Patience sucks, doesn't it?!?!
Quote: I'm so happy for both of you re. the positive movement in your sitchs. In both cases, it seems to me to be a byproduct of patience and looking at the positives and great DB'ing!
Thanks...but our Ses must get some credit too! I am fortunate in that my W is really willing to examine herself, her motives, and read and do what needs to be done to move forward.
AHHH!!! Bad me...I apologize... You know, I'm at work, doing stuff in between, so sometimes I miss certain things.