infidelity

[hoosiermama]

Thanks--those are good points. I am doing IC, hope to continue that if we do MC but don't know if I can afford it, especially since D is seeing an IC as well. But I'm certainly going to try.

Here are my goals and strategies for MC next week, which I've been working on with my IC:
It's important that I begin the session, so that I can get my points across; H has a tendency to use a lot of "therapy-speak" and when we did MC before, manipulated the therapist. I'm fairly sure that this therapist won't be charmed by him, but at any rate, I will try to start the session. What I want to say is this:
1. lots of changes in the past couple of months for H, including:
medication change
job change
denominational change
significant personality changes
affair
separation/moving out
2. "everything is my fault" mentality for him
3. I want to work on the marriage with solution-based goals, not rehashing of how we got here--I want to work on this because I love him and I love our family and I believe it can be much better than it has been
4. I recognize that there is little possibility that we will be able to accomplish much toward healing the marriage as long as he has emotionally left the relationship
5. I also recognize that there will be no working on the relationship as long as he's having an affair
6. What is the therapist's recommendation about what we can hope to accomplish under these circumstances?

I know he won't hear anything that anyone says which doesn't support what he wants to do at the moment, which is to pursue the affair. I really don't know if anything can be accomplished in MC (as I said above) but I think it's the only shot I have right now to improve things at all. I really think I'm just going to have to ride this out; if and when he wakes up, there will be a lot of MC to be done and we might as well have this baseline with the therapist. I know he will blow up and throw a temper tantrum, because he will undoubtedly disagree with almost all the above. And it will be interesting to see what she does with his response.

So basically, I'm open. I don't think this is going to solve anything; I don't even know if this will be a beginning. If nothing else, though, I will feel a little less helpless. Even if she agrees that not much can be accomplished now, at least she will likely validate what I'm going to be saying.

[hoosiermama]

(Cut and pasted from MLC thread)
Do his colleagues at work know what's going on? I think some of them know he has moved out and that we're "having problems," and he's probably told them all kinds of craziness about me (I know he must have told a few others too, because I've been cut off in a few relationships). But I am fairly certain no one there knows about OW, or at least the extent of their relationship. I would think that some of them may begin to suspect, as he seems to be spending a lot of time in the NICU. My understanding is that after summer is over he'll be covering a different unit, but I'd be willing to bet that he'll find a way not to change. I would think that if co-workers and boss knew the whole story, it would be a big problem. However, since he's euphoric and has received a lot of affirmation there, he probably believes he's bulletproof against criticism. Have I thought about spilling the beans? Of course. I haven't seriously considered it, tho. Besides, he's apparently already thought about that and warned me never to have any contact with his colleagues. "This is my career! You don't mess with it." Okay, this is my marriage, family, life--and he's definitely messed with that! However, I don't think it would likely accomplish anything positive, realistically. Besides, if this thing ever does go to court, he has lawyers in his family; I don't want him to feel entitled to revenge.

Does his congregation know? No. I talked with his pastor, who's a friend of mine too, early on. Eventually, at the pastor's insistance, he talked with him too. He was livid that I had had any contact with him (isn't that a logical person from whom to seek help?) and said that they had agreed that the congregation doesn't have to know all the details of his life. He also said that altho he was initially afraid that my conversation with the pastor would slow down his process of preparing for ordination--note: not his behavior, but mine was in question in his mind!--that it probably wouldn't really interfere at all. I don't know if that's what actually transpired or if it's just what he heard. Clearly there's some guilt going on or he'd be more of an open book, which is what he claims to be.

I would think that, under the circumstances, the MC would have a hard time "encouraging" the affair. I don't expect her to discourage it, because I think she'll realize he won't hear her. However, he's really not showing a lot of integrity (i.e. what's going on inside matching what's going on outside) in regard to his professional or church life and relationships, and I would think that would be a factor--if only because his continuing his present course could be harmful to HIM in those areas. So, no, I don't think she'll DIScourage him, but I can't imagine that she would encourage him to escalate the affair.

H is a new episcopalian, having left the Catholic church; also, he recently left a Catholic hospital and is working for a less denominationally-oriented system.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

I think you should strongly consider exposing the affair to both his employer, and any elders in the congregation. Your husband is in a position of authority over others, including others' moral decisions, and they have a right to know the character of the man that they're putting in that position.

The fact that your husband has reacted so strongly to the possibility of that indicates just how strong of an impact such a bold move could have.

Do NOT do this if you'd merely be doing it out of vindictiveness, or if you don't feel you can handle the blowback (which will be considerable). Do this ONLY as a means to try to exert pressure to restore your marriage.

Exposure is controversial, and reasonable people disagree on both sides. But it's a proven technique that has worked for hundreds of thousands of couples, including me and my wife.

Puppy

[MP53]

Not sure how I feel about that advice, Puppy. Can you give examples of how it restored your marriage?

[sgctxok]

I know this has worked for Puppy.....but if you want hope of your H also coming back to the church as well as you....I don't think wouldn't do it. YOU'RE dealing with a man with an ego. And QUITE an ego at that.

ALTHOUGH, I'll bet you're going to say folks already know.

Puppy has some good advice in lots of place, and they revolve around setting limits and holding to them.......and I think that's a good idea for you.

Spend your time on getting yourself back. I KNOW YOU'VE GOT WHAT IT TAKES.

And I think he'll have enough ego that if it isn't impossible, he'll want to prove himself.

At that point, you might not want him, so you might have to also work on compassion and real forgiveness....which you know enough that it isn't as easy as it sounds.....so having your friend do the HT on your is a GREAT idea.

You go girlfriend!


btw--- I LOVE YOUR DISPLAYNAME!!! I WISH I had thought of it!!!

[hoosiermama]

Let me clarify a bit, because I may have been confusing.

H is in the very very early stages of preparing for episcopal priesthood. He is really in authority over no one in his congregation at this point or any time in the near future. I've talked at length with his pastor and the pastor's wife, so they are aware of the situation. Where it actually stands in terms of him moving forward, I don't really know because I only know what he hears and then what part of that he wants to tell me. At the very least, he has at least a couple of years before he would be ordained, with a lot of preparation in the interim. So I kinda think that's been addressed as much as is appropriate. I wouldn't really know who else to contact in his congregation anyway.

Regarding contacting his colleagues--I think that's very very risky. I would have to be absolutely sure they'd completely take my side and confront him almost with an ultimatum--and I just can't see that happening. They know him far better than they know me, and would likely believe him over me. The blowback from the exposure I HAVE done (pastor, a friend or 2, and his brother and SIL) has been really awful. Yes, I did it absolutely NOT from vindictiveness but from the perspective of anticipating those people to step up and say "WTF are you doing, H? Get your head out of your hiney and think about what's at risk." However, not only did that not happen, but several folks have cut me off--I imagine because of what dreadful things he told them about me to bail himself out and be the victim. They're now supportive of HIM. So it backfired in all the practical ways, and it also made him so angry that he became verbally abusive in front of D. I understand why it was so threatening to him, but the blowback was very painful for no gain at all. Right now everything seems like pressure to him, so exerting pressure deliberately--especially in this way--seems a no-win situation.

How did it work for you? Any other folks willing to jump in with an opinion?

[hoosiermama]

Thank you again. I think you must know him!! Yep, it's all about the ego for him--and really, this whole MLC has been about feeding his inflated ego. In retrospect, I think the seeds were planted about 6 months ago when he essentially got screwed in his old job--just happened to be in the way when a VP was looking to vaporize another person in his department, and she had no problems jerking him around in the process. That was very humiliating. I was as supportive as I know how to be at the time (altho he doesn't remember any of that), gave wise advice and reality checks when he was having anxiety attacks. Not long after, he was approached about a corresponding position at a competing facility and he jumped at it, getting a lot of affirmation in the process. And the rest is history--it seemed to set off a chain of ego-feeding, narcissistic behavior.

The thing is, I don't think folks know what's going on. I think he realizes that there are significant risks. Those who do know have cut me off--so I imagine he has made sure I'm at fault in their eyes.

Forgiveness has never been my strong suit. Not that I haven't wanted to be forgiving, just can't always accomplish it. I also have a history of being so compassionate with him that I lose myself (comes from being an ACOA) so as this progresses--if this progresses--I will need to work on good boundaries.

Glad you like "hoosiermama!" Must have just been a flash of inspiration.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Not sure how I feel about that advice, Puppy. Can you give examples of how it restored your marriage?

Sure. I exposed my wife's affair to our adult daughters (then 18 and 20), my wife's parents and siblings, MY parents and siblings, OM's parents, and my wife's/OM's employer. More than anything I did, I think it was the pressure brought to bear by two people that got thru my wife's stubborn, entitled fog:

My D18 and my mother-in-law. My wife's reaction to their disappointment and disapproval was palpable, and she told me after she came back to me that she respected what I did, and while it made her very, very angry at the time, she knew why I did it -- to try and save our marriage, and to fight for her.

It's not for everyone, but the main idea is that affairs thrive on secrecy and fantasy, and confrontation and exposure removes both -- in a hurry. The lovebirds are then left to deal with the painful reality of the mess they've caused, and suddenly the affair doesn't seem quite so romantic and special.

The other main concept behind it is that others have a right to know, and then to do for themselves what they choose. I would certainly want to know, if the situation were reversed.

Puppy

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Regarding contacting his colleagues--I think that's very very risky. I would have to be absolutely sure they'd completely take my side and confront him almost with an ultimatum--and I just can't see that happening. They know him far better than they know me, and would likely believe him over me. The blowback from the exposure I HAVE done (pastor, a friend or 2, and his brother and SIL) has been really awful. Yes, I did it absolutely NOT from vindictiveness but from the perspective of anticipating those people to step up and say "WTF are you doing, H? Get your head out of your hiney and think about what's at risk." However, not only did that not happen, but several folks have cut me off--I imagine because of what dreadful things he told them about me to bail himself out and be the victim. They're now supportive of HIM.

HM,

I should have mentioned something important: I would ONLY advocate exposing their affair -- if you even decide to go that route -- if you had ironclad proof of it. It really strengthened my hand to be able to say to my in-laws, for example, "Look, I know this is upsetting to you, but please know that I wouldn't be telling you this if I wasn't absolutely sure of it, and had proof."

Puppy

[hoosiermama]

Oh, I have proof. I have several emails that give a nice timeline of the beginning of the affair (while it was still EA), which I got before he changed all his passwords and stopped bringing home his laptop (and then moved out). I have those printed out, in case he ever gets into my emails.

I have the email I received from OW in answer to one I sent her; doesn't explicitly admit an affair, but it is quite implicit in what she writes.

I have D's report of H freaking out when she was looking on his cell/blackberry for a digital game, then yelling at her to "never ever look at my email." Okay, that isn't explicit either, but kinda supporting evidence.

And I have my bank statement, which lists the times he has stopped for wine and take-and-bake pizza near her home--which is far on the other side of the furthest west suburb of Indy; we live on the east side, don't know anyone else out that way.

So nothing explicit except for emails, but those give a clear picture of how it began.

I sent those emails to H's brother a few weeks back, for the very reasons you suggest. Initially the brother was shocked and supportive, but after awhile H talked to him, and he and his wife have cut me off. His parents don't know yet; they will have a cow. I have thought that probably he should tell them, but he'll probably tell them whatever he's told everyone else. Either way, they're Italian; blood is thicker than water, he's the baby boy and can do no wrong. They won't be happy--no divorces in his family, going back several generations--but they definitely won't change his mind. And the common enemy will be me. With my bil and sil, the damage has been done, and even if things work out for the best, my relationship with them is fractured.

I also sent the emails to his pastor--for the same reason. When I talked with him, he was quite supportive and very disturbed about the MLC. I don't know what happened when H and pastor talked, but he did express things were okay "once he was able to explain himself."

I do wish I could do a tiny bit of info gathering, for this purpose, and find a very explicit love note; given that it's undoubtedly a PA now, I would imagine those notes are being passed. But I don't have any way to do that. And it's probably just as well; it would be hard for me to read.