I was a virgin when I got married, and my husband was an out and out hedonist. Once we were married, I had great problems with sex - no orgasms, very unfulfilling, basically couldn't work out why anyone would want to do it. This really went on for 10 years (I cringe as I think of what I put him through), with sex maybe upto 5 times a years, mostly ending in tears.
H was abused when young, and terrified of becoming an abuser, so me crying near the end of sex saying 'I can't do it...' affected him horribly. He said he turned off any sexual relationship with me then to protect himself. I saw numerous counsellors along the way
At the time we were both Christians, I still am, he gave up 2 years ago. I think he stayed with me because it was the 'Godly thing to do'.
In the last 5 years, I have discovered what it is all about, what to do, and have really started to get a libido! I'm quite adventurous now, and I feel my sexual side of me now matches the personality I had when I met him.
Sadly, he says it is too late.
He sees me as a sister-figure, and a great friend. He stopped having sexual feelings for me a long time ago (even though up to the bomb we were having sex, although always me initiating and only once a week if that). Recently I have tried the underwear, nice meal beforehand, talking dirty, different positions etc etc but he feels I am being too desperate. It's just not there for him.
Is there any hope at all or is this the thing that will kill us off?
Me:36 M:16 D final: 08/09 Ds:10&5 Ss:8&3 Bomb 3xPA 200 sexual encounters 15/06/08
What happened five years ago for you? Has he not noticed the change over the past five? It would seem odd not to percieve the difference between routinely crying in bed during sex to the partner enjoying it.
Have some patience here, there will be some good advice come along here at some point (much better than me). Do remember, Rome was not built in a day nor can 10+ years of damage be changed over night. I have been through this myself (the process of de-sexing the relationship with my wife). Your husband has been at this much longer. On the plus side, you have already resolved some of your issues.
No you don't have an "impossible" situation, but a very difficult one. It will take some hard work on both you and your H's part to work through things to a happy relationship again. Your enthusiasm and desire to roll up your sleeves and do something about it is a great start: like many others here, the hardest task in front of you is to convince your spouse that
(a) there is hope for salvaging the relationship and making it a happy one, (b) you are dead serious about working hard to achieve that goal, and (c) they need to step up to the plate also, realize their own contribution to the problems, and work hard too.
You wrote:
Originally Posted By: happycamper
I was a virgin when I got married, and my husband was an out and out hedonist. Once we were married, I had great problems with sex....This really went on for 10 years....H was abused when young, and terrified of becoming an abuser, so me crying near the end of sex saying 'I can't do it...' affected him horribly. He said he turned off any sexual relationship with me then to protect himself.
You have taken a major step here, in recognizing the original source of the problem, how it affected him, and where he is now: deep inside of a very thick, protective shield. The abuse he suffered has saddled him with a huge amount of victim's guilt that he must overcome in order to allow himself to be sexual. Your previous reactions have, unfortunately, added to that guilt, so that now he has even more to overcome. It may take a period of regular (weekly) counseling with a good therapist before he is willing to make himself vulnerable to both you sexually (to your potential reactions/rejections) and to his own male sexuality.
Speaking from my own experience, male sexuality is a tricky 'tiger' to work with, particularly for a man who was brought up in a Nice Girls Don't and Nice Boys Don't either atmosphere. Most of us learn to keep that tiger on a very short lead, and only fantasize about actually letting it roam free, even within the boundaries of our marriages. Our wives, brought up in the same Nice Girls Don't atmosphere, can be both terrified and turned on by that tiger, and often at the same time. If you think that your emotions/desires are confusing to YOU sometimes, it's far worse for the poor guy on the outside, trying to figure out what the 'right thing' to do is at some given moment. Again speaking from my own experience, it takes confidence in oneself as a man, and a great deal of trust between the man and woman in the relationship to overcome these old Nice Girls/Boys Don't barriers and truly connect and enjoy each other as a couple.
Your husband has, in effect, locked his 'tiger' in a secure cage where no one can get hurt, either him or you. It's going to take some serious work to convince him that it is now safe -- for both of you -- to let it out again.
Originally Posted By: happycamper
At the time we were both Christians, I still am, he gave up 2 years ago. I think he stayed with me because it was the 'Godly thing to do'.
As I did with NearTheEnd, I'm going to recommend a book to you, and hopefully won't be seen as 'advertising.' It's called The 5 Sex Needs of Men and Women, by Gary and Barbara Rosburg: a well-known pair of 'Christian couple' counselors. Their advice dovetails very nicely with Michele's The Sex-Starved Marriage (SSM), but is geared toward addressing specific gender differences and overcoming the old sex-is-sinful mindset that many Christians carry with them (and allow it to hurt their marriages).
Originally Posted By: happycamper
In the last 5 years, I have discovered what it is all about, what to do, and have really started to get a libido! I'm quite adventurous now, and I feel my sexual side of me now matches the personality I had when I met him.
Most excellent! Keep exploring and enjoying your sexuality, even if by yourself --> your husband will benefit from it, either now or later.
Originally Posted By: happycamper
Recently I have tried the underwear, nice meal beforehand, talking dirty, different positions etc etc but he feels I am being too desperate.
If he's seeing you as "desperate," then it's probably time for a course change -- this isn't the impression you want to make. Michele also talks about this in The SSM, where a pattern in which one of you is always the pursuer and the other the pursued (who usually says No), then you may need to back off and work to switch roles. I know it's hard to do, especially when you're trying to prove to him that you've changed your sexual stripes from that in years past, but appearing needy or desperate is the wrong signal to send right now.
In a very real sense, you will need to court your husband's attentions again, rediscovering and displaying the woman that he was originally attracted to 15 year ago, albeit a more mature, wiser version of that woman. This is a hard thing to do, especially when it comes to tossing out or at least burying the "baggage" that has since piled up between you, but Michele's books and these forums are a great resource for doing just that.
Again, welcome aboard -- I hope you can find some friends and good advice here.
Best regards,
Bagheera
Me 50, W 45, M for 26 yrs S25, D23, S13, S10 20+ year SSM; recovery began Oct 2007
Bagheera is giving you excellent advice, as always. And near the end has brought up a great point - if you have been making changes to the sexual situation for 5 years, hasn't he noticed that by now?
But...I will give you my two cents...please prepare yourself...
I think that one thing people in your position need to do, is to look in the mirror and just say to yourself "self, you might have blown this thing".
You see, it is a normal thing for human beings to try to say "but what about when he said or did this or that" when we are accused of something. We try to deflect. We try to rationalize our behavior. We try to attach reasons to our behavior to prove that it was a reaction to someone else's behavior. We grasp at any straw we can in order to not look into ourselves and admit that we may have blown it and have no one to blame but ourselves. It is so painful for humans to do this, that we rarely ever do it.
But...you really need to do that. You need to accept FULLY the consequences of your past actions that caused your husband to withdraw his attraction toward you and then later, withdraw his love for you. You don't need to dwell on negatives or specifics. You just need to take yourself squarely by the shoulders and realize that you may have lost him forever, due to ONLY your own choices and actions.
I know this is difficult and entirely sad and depressing, but if you keep clinging to "but I have changed" or "but what about when he did this or that" you will never really GET IT.
You need to really GET IT in order to really change for the positive. So you basically have to go forward with an attitude like this:
"I get it now - I pushed him away and I may have lost him forever as a result. I cannot blame him or anyone else for my own actions. When I talk to him from here forward, I will do it from a position of someone who is contrite, but not desperate. I will not desperately pursue him. What I WILL do is accept the consequences of my actions and accept that he is withdrawn from me and doesn't feel he loves me anymore. This is the bed I have made and must lie in. HOWEVER, if God gives me another chance to make this work, I will do it right this time. And I know I will do it right, because I already learned how to do it wrong and how to take responsibility for that".
Please really think about what I am saying because you really won't make any progress until you do that.
I know this because during my marriage (am divorced now) I did something essentially similar to what you did. Anyway, by the time I had blown it, I still was expecting my husband to be the one to step up and see and admit HIS mistakes. I was so arrogant and felt so justified in what I had done that had made our marriage suffer. And actually, I probably WAS justified. But what did that matter, if my actions made him shut down from me? And by the time we separated, I couldn't figure out why he wouldn't pursue me and try to make it work again. Well...DUH DanceQueen, you made it clearly obvious to him in the first 10 years of marriage that you never wanted to have sex with him - how can you expect him to want to pursue that?
Anyway, in my arrogance, I never really understood that I had to take full responsiblity for my OWN ACTIONS and forget about his contribution to the failure of my marriage. Otherwise, you cannot learn and grow. You will just be bitter and angry if you keep focused on all the ways we use to deflect ourselves from blame. But the moment you just own it entirely without trying to make excuses, is the moment you can begin to get another chance with him.
As for the sex and trying new things, etc and him saying you appear to be desperate - -
Just totally stop all of that for now, please! You cannot appear desperate, this is the biggest turn off of all. You must appear contrite, responsible for your own feelings/actions, sorry for the fact that he has been hurt, but STRONG in your self-conviction to try to change for the better.
At this point, good sex isn't going to turn him back around toward you. There is a lot more work to do before he turns back around, if he ever does.
I thought for a while that getting divorced was the hardest thing I ever had to do. But I was wrong. The hardest thing I ever had to do actually was when I had to look within and see that I was the only one to blame for my own actions.
But after that painfully hard discovery, I could then truly change for the better. I'm still changing with a lot of hard work behind me now, and am engaged to the love of my life. So it did work out for me after much pain and turmoil - but I'm telling you right now, I could have saved myself a lot of the pain and turmoil had I just laid down my pride and admitted that I put myself in the position I was in. Me and no one else put me there. If I didn't like it, I could only ask myself for answers.
After that - everything get better - slowly but surely.
Guys I am so grateful for your honest responses - I got up early this morning to see H off to work. Now he has gone I just thought I'd check in here. I have to get the children up now and get ready for school, but I will come back later and reply properly.
Thanks!
Me:36 M:16 D final: 08/09 Ds:10&5 Ss:8&3 Bomb 3xPA 200 sexual encounters 15/06/08
What happened five years ago for you? Has he not noticed the change over the past five? It would seem odd not to percieve the difference between routinely crying in bed during sex to the partner enjoying it.
NTE
I had seen 4 diffent types of counsellors who suggested various things, and the last one I saw asked me if I had had an orgasm (no). What about through masturbation (I didn't). She said well there was really no hope for me unless I found out for myself what worked.
In the end I became so desperate to solve the situation that I tried it, forced myself to. And I kept on forcing myself to until I came to the point of understanding why people did it in the first place.
The problem with H is that on so many occasions I was pushing myself and hating every minute of it with him that when I was more comfortable he didn't really believe me. I think he has initiated sex maybe 3 times in the last 5 years? He just doesn't trust me that I'm not forcing myself.
Me:36 M:16 D final: 08/09 Ds:10&5 Ss:8&3 Bomb 3xPA 200 sexual encounters 15/06/08
Your husband has, in effect, locked his 'tiger' in a secure cage where no one can get hurt, either him or you. It's going to take some serious work to convince him that it is now safe -- for both of you -- to let it out again.
Thank you very much Bagheera for your lengthy reply and your encouragement. I can certainly understand what you mean about locking the tiger up. Before I met him, before he joined the church, his tiger was very much loose, so to speak (in fact I think he had a whole ambush of tigers and every one of them was running around very free!! LOL). I'm sure that was a reaction to the abuse he suffered. Once he became a christian, tiger was in the cage, and then we married and the padlock put firmly on.
I'm wondering if this is why he wants to be free at the moment - he wants to return to his old way of life which would not be something I could tolerate.
Originally Posted By: Bagheera
If he's seeing you as "desperate," then it's probably time for a course change -- this isn't the impression you want to make. Michele also talks about this in The SSM, where a pattern in which one of you is always the pursuer and the other the pursued (who usually says No), then you may need to back off and work to switch roles. I know it's hard to do, especially when you're trying to prove to him that you've changed your sexual stripes from that in years past, but appearing needy or desperate is the wrong signal to send right now.
I didn't realise I was being desperate - I thought I was being the dream wife! You're right though, and actually I can see that pattern very clearly. The more confident and adventurous I got, the less he seemed to notice. The less interested he was. I guess at the moment then I need to back off completely? Well, I already have as he's made it quite clear that it is off limits.
Someone else also said I needed to return to who I was 15 years ago... I am certainly trying. What I can't be is the kind of person who he hung out with before he met me - I'm wondering if that is who he thinks he needs now.
Me:36 M:16 D final: 08/09 Ds:10&5 Ss:8&3 Bomb 3xPA 200 sexual encounters 15/06/08
"The problem with H is that on so many occasions I was pushing myself and hating every minute of it with him"
Good God woman! This is almost the worst thing you could say to a man! (or if he figures out how you feel) This is basically asking him to cut off his member and throw it in the bin! If my wife told me this or I thought this, I would either slit my wrists or leave!
Sorry for the rant, but I want you to understand how critical this is. I am at a loss for a female equivelant.
At the risk of sounding crude, what cues are you giving him during the act that it is no longer forced?
For a man, this is huge. There are a number of very uncomplimentary terms among men for women who are non paticipatory or non reactional during the event. A man can not feel like a winner in bed unless the partner is giving some feedback suggesting she is enjoying his attentions. Faking is totally out here as well. Same as lying and far more damageing when it is found out.
My wife frustrates me greatly during sex. I know she doesn't fake, but she is grumpy and always acts frustrated when providing feedback during. Most guys really don't mind some correction, in the right manner. It further indicates that you are interested in and enjoying the process. It would be like having the wife come home with the Kama Sutra and saying "Let's try all this stuff, and I got beer!" No higher form of seduction..
Just some thoughts. I don't really have many answers, but I can provide some perspective from the other side.
Thanks DanceQueen for your reply and your honesty.
I do understand what you are saying. I think both of us acknowledge that it was a very unfortunate start to our marriage, more so given H's past. It is not something that either of us can be blamed for and God knows I endured enough horrible counselling trying to find out the answer. I guess the only thing I would say is that if I knew the effect it would have on our R I would have probably have forced myself to masturbate much sooner.
It's only in the last week or so have I realised the relationship of the first 10 years to his current position. And I have to tell you, as I have told him (but not too much!) that I bitterly, bitterly regret the impact it has had and the way it has affected him personally. As much as I can accept responsibility, I do, and I can empathise with how he feels at the moment.
You know the really sad thing is, one of our issues is his over-spending. And what does he buy? Designer underwear, designer ties, nice clothes, male grooming stuff. Why? Because he wants to be attractive to someone, even if it isn't me.
Me:36 M:16 D final: 08/09 Ds:10&5 Ss:8&3 Bomb 3xPA 200 sexual encounters 15/06/08
which would not be something I could tolerate.
You're right though, and actually I can see that pattern very clearly. The more confident and adventurous I got, the less he seemed to notice. The less interested he was. I guess at the moment then I need to back off completely? Well, I already have as he's made it quite clear that it is off limits.