ms ladybug SQUISHED!

[ms ladybug]

I think if the marriage was good, if I trusted him, if he would step up and HELP out with the kids or the housework, or ANYTHING then I would feel like I could move anywhere with him. But, he thinks I'm using our marriage as an excuse not to move. It's not an excuse...it's a reason.

[Sara]

You have a communication gulf. He doesn't hear, or want to hear, what you say, and you don't hear, or want to hear, what he says. And you are locked in a power struggle. Right now, you are winning the power struggle, because he is not moving. So that must really bother him. I get the idea that he is the dominant male type.

You really need to learn to communicate effectively. To really listen to each other, and to put the information into a format that the other can listen to. Not the ranting that you got from him. But I don't know that what you say is presented any better. And I know he is not listening, because I saw the reaction to your last letter.

It seems to me the choices are to stay locked in this battle of wills, which no one will win, or agree to find a counselor who you can work with. And I know that you offered to go to counseling in your letter. So you have to wait for him to come back around to the conclusion that if he wants to get out of this repetitive argument, then he needs to go.

[Dom R]

. But, he thinks I'm using our marriage as an excuse not to move. It's not an excuse...it's a reason.

ladybug.. i think that you really do not understand what your husband thinks right now.
Making assumptions about "he thinks...", are probably incorrect assumptions.
They're not particularly useful, anyway. How about letting go of assumptions of what you cannot "know" for sure, and focusing on what you DO know for sure.
Focus instead on his email to you?

And I know that you offered to go to counseling in your letter. So you have to wait for him to come back around to the conclusion that if he wants to get out of this repetitive argument, then he needs to go [to counselling].

Sara: Her husband has already chosen a way out of "this repetitive argument". He has chosen "Divorce". And ya know what? it will work for him.
From what he has observed of his wife, he prefers divorce, to living in a marriage like they have had so far. Particularly given that the expectation currently, is "no change". Told directly to him by his wife, in no uncertain terms, and backed by years of experience of it.

If ladybug wants a different conclusion to things between them, it is now on her shoulders, to show her husband, that she CAN, and WILL change. To show him that being married to her, will no longer be like the past. Otherwise, he will divorce her.

I hear retrouville is great for "communication". The thing about communication, though, is that it is only a means to an end. It is usually supposed to culminate in action.
A large, significant chunk of communication has already happened. Further "communication" will have little results. It is now time for action.
(with the slight adjustment, that "making a commitment", can be considered "an action" also)

[Dom R]

PS:

I know it's about showing him that I've changed, but after this much time, he's not going to beleive anything. He's given up.

There's an old saying: "Seeing is believing".

When he SEES change in you... THEN he will believe.

action... consistent over time...

when and if he has reason to believe in changes in you... then and only then, does he have reason to not give up any more.

[Sara]

I was hoping that if I was patient enough and tried everything there was and prayed hard enough that you would see my efforts and and understand that I loved you. I asked God to change your heart and make me a better man and husband. You haven't made any effort to treat me any different than you did when we first got married. And as a testiment to how pathetic our marriage has become after eight years we still have unresolved arguments that date back to when we first got married.

Here's one example of non-communication. She says she wants help with the kids and the house. He says he tried -- he prayed hard. I'm sure he thinks he did something. And I'm sure she thinks he did nothing, because he could have prayed while sweeping, mopping, vacuuming or chasing after kids. They have the same arguments they had 8 years ago. That's nothing. My husband and I had the same argument for 28 years. That's not communication. That's being stuck and needing help.

Yes, action. Agreement to go to counseling and making it better. She can't just say "I'm sorry for being me. I will be the servant you want me to be." We women do have a gag reflex, and that's one of the sentences that triggers it.

[TwinDad]

Hey Lady Bug, Just catching up from the weekend. I'm sorry you didn't get the response you would have liked from your H but it sounds like the luncheon afterwards went well. I know it seems sad when you are just looking for any little sign of hope (like a making eye contact). But what you have to consider is that he is likely very guarded in what he is doing, so any little sign is likely a conscience decision.

Your H seems very frustrated and I think Dom is right, he is looking for validation and has felt unvalidated for a long period of time. He also said a lot of good things in the e-mail in that he must most upset because all of the stresses in y'alls life had an adverse impact on the ability to spend time with the people he loves the most (you and your children). It sounds like he wants a better life for all of you. I don't know how your day to day life was like so I am not looking to be judgemental.

His letter says to me he wants to be able to support his family in a place where there are good morals, little crime and where the cost of living is such that he doesn't have to work overtime and can spend the maximum time possible with his W and children.

I think you do have to make the first step and shwo him how you have made changes. Heartfelt changes, consitency and time will win this battle. Also, if he sees changes in you he will likely change as well. Just like you will backslide he will likely have some times were he becomes verbally abusive after he seems to get better.

I would even consider going to conseling on your own, bring that letter and see what the MC says about how you can show changes in your current sitch.

I don't think for a second that your M is over, despite what your H might say. Many people have heard those words over and over again and yet they reconcile. I have heard it myself several times in the last 6 months yet I have slept with my W for the last week. He is responding to you because he still cares!

We are here for you!

[ms ladybug]

No response this morning and I know he checked his email last night. He always checks my email (used to be ours) then his own.

I don't know if that's good or bad. I guess what I wrote to him didn't elecit a response. We'll see if he says anything when the kids call tonight.

I wasn't making an assumption about what he thinks. He's told me in those exact words that I'm using our bad marriage as an excuse not to move to TN.

I'm back to work today after a three day weekend. Putting on my happy face...

[Dom R]

I guess what I wrote to him didn't elecit a response
Probably as I said, it didnt go far enough to evoke one

I wasn't making an assumption about what he thinks. He's told me in those exact words that I'm using our bad marriage as an excuse not to move to TN.

ah. k...

Meanwhile, the 3 people who write most to you, have suggested, to varying degrees, that you should take some kind of action.
You didnt comment on that, but instead write about how you are waiting for HIS action/behaviour, on a phone call tonight?

[cat03]

Your husband still loves you. He's giving up on you, because he doesnt believe you love HIM, enough to give him what he needs. That hurts him, so he's taking actions to cut away the hurt.

Don, her H is mental at some degree, why should she apologize? if you've read her first posts on this board you'll see how he used to yell at her face and put her down in from of other people. The verbal abuse is just unbelievable.
I do agree that what she said to him last week was not the thing to say, but it doesn't put all the blame on her.

I have learned that to have good communication one must drop all sarcasm, drama, baits and any other games. It is hard to do but it is a must in order to deal with the core of the problem.

This is not about how she is unwilling to change, it's about him picking some stuff that bothers him and making it all about her and how she is not trying to change.

She actually went to a psychiatrist to prove him she doesnt' have a mental condition and what did he say ? "so you are being a b*tch on purpose". He has MAJOR issues and is unwilling to admit to anything.

Again, I dont' know her life nor how it used to be,she admits what he wrote on his emails was true, but since then she admitted to her wrong doings, he WON'T, he just blames her and her alone.

What about he level of pain she is going through? having being in that sitch, in which all I did was put my H's pain/issues above mine I realize now how I lost sight of myself as a woman/mother/person.

[cat03]

His letter says to me he wants to be able to support his family in a place where there are good morals, little crime and where the cost of living is such that he doesn't have to work overtime and can spend the maximum time possible with his W and children.

when he first suggested this it was either his way or the highway, that she had to go under his terms and that there'd be no negotiation at all.
Of course she didnt' move an inch! thank heavens for that, what woman would follow such a man?