You and the other ladies are absolutely correct. There will be limits as to what I will and won't allow her to do and I can do it w/out getting nasty and ugly w/ her.
I also decided to use some of your advice when she posed her 1st question about our R and we've been discussing things ever since. It is interesting and who knows where it will end up. I think you've been right however as she's needed affirmation from me and the chance to speak and know that she's being heard and listened to.
Again, I could be setting myself up here, but I'm not doing anything to give away the farm, but I am answering her questions and I've taken a few chances w/ my responses tonight.
300 was the last movie that W and I saw together without the kids. I loved it but she did not like all the slicing and dicing. There sure were a lot of great quotes in that movie. Those were the good old days.
Alright, you may have read on my reponse to ellie that I offered to support her in the event her parents pass away and shortly after that came the playful texts then the R texts.
Now, before you read, note that I addressed my issues and faults here. This is not the forum for me to begin to attack her for the issues she has. That forum is in front of a marriage counselor, but not here. Not now. I also take a few chances that maybe I shouldn't have taken, but I was feeling that I needed to be honest to keep the dialogue open. We haven't had this type of discussion in a long, long time and although you can tell W is still angry, she's still talking, asking questions, and looking for answers.
There may be time in the future where we address all of this further, but it isn't now. Also, I'm pretty sure I'm not giving anything away that will come back to hurt me legally. I'm fully fine w/ saying all of this during a deposition.
Here is how they started and where we are w/ them now.
W: I want what is best for D RTL: So do I.
W: You have NEVER actually trusted me. RTL: I've never known you've felt this way. I've never intended for you to feel untrusted by me. I will always be available for you to talk about this if you would like.
W: u never trusted me or my love for you. Just admit it 2 urself. RTL: I never trusted me.
W: Did you ever trust me? Did you ever know me? RTL: I'm sorry if my actions caused you to think I doubted you. I didn't, but I'm sorry if it made you feel as if I did. I really am. RTL (addition): Yes I trusted you. Always have, but I didn't trust me. I'm learning to trust who I am now, even though it is a bit late.
W: You destroyed me. It is difficult for me. RTL: I'm destroyed as well. I never wanted any of this.
W: U couldn't have trusted me. U would have relaxed. RTL: It isn't about you. If it was, you are right, I would have relaxed. I didn't understand me. I am getting to know me now and we seem to be getting along fine. So I've got that going for me...
W: I never wanted this. I couldn't take anymore. RTL: I never wanted it either. I'm sorry you felt you'd reached your limit w/ me. I wish I would have been able to do more sooner, but I couldn't fix what I couldn't see. I see it now, so I can fix it.
W: Still killing me. Glad u r happy. RTL: I never said I was happy. It is still killing me too.
W: oh good. Glad I am not alone. RTL: No you are not alone.
W: I was afraid of u. RTL: I would never hurt you or D. Not then, not now, not ever.
W: u did RTL: I didn't understand. I wasn't clear about me, so I couldn't understand. I swear I never did anything to purposely hurt you.
W: eventhough I told you that you were destroying me? RTL: and for that I'm truly sorry. I didn't know I hurt you. I would never choose to do that to you.
W: but u did hurt me RTL: I couldn't see it. I didn't know. I was in denial about me which blocked out everything else. I told you early on that therapy was like having a cloud of fog lifted from around me and for the 1st time I could see the effects of anything and everything I did.
W: u knew you hurt me. How could u not? RTL: I couldn't fix what I didn't understand. I only wish I'd known more sooner, but I didn't. I can understand things now, but I can't go back and changethe past. I wish I could, but of course I can't.
W: no, you can't. I wish you could RTL: So do I. More than you may ever know or understand.
W: ok. crying. I need to put D to bed. RTL: Funny and ironic as I'm crying too. I am always available to talk to you about this or anything else. All you have to do is ask and I'll be there for you.
W: F@ck! Where were you before when my husband ignored and abandoned me? RTL: Lost, scared, and blinded by a fog. I'm still the same guy, but now I'm not afraid of who I am and where I'm from. You still have my heart. I always wanted it to be yours.
W: Not fair. U destroyed me and my love for u...and us. What r u saying? RTL: I'm stil here. You are still my Boo and you always will be. Maybe some of your love for me still exists somewhere.
W: (Expletive). How can I ever trust u again? I gave u everything and u pissed on me...again and again. RTL: That is something only you can decide. I have issues of trust w/ you because of this divorce, but I'm willing to try to trust you again. You are worth it to me.
W: ur only saying this bcuz of the deposition RTL: No. I'm not afraid of the deposition. I have no problems admitting where I've erred. Is this what you are referring to?
W: yes RTL: If I made mistakes, I'll own them. They are mine and I won't run from them. If I do, what type of example would that set for D?
W: You raged in front of her. What kind of example was that. RTL: A poor one.
W: u ignored us. U only want me to come back 2 - what? RTL: There is no going back. Only going forward. I won't return to the past.
This is it so far. I'll let you know if more comes in. Maybe I made a mistake here. I'm not sure. I only know that she was asking for answers, so I did my best to honestly give them to her. She says she doesn't trust me, so I felt I needed to be honest as actions speak louder than words.
I won't be pushing her for more information and discussion that she isn't willing to give. She brought it up, so I'm obliging her.
I'm interested in your feedback here, so I'll be eagerly checking in.
I really liked 300. I also liked the ability to imagine being able to take your anger out on others w/ a sword like the good ol' days.
I was watching National Treasure 2 when the texting w/ W started. I like these types of movies as a history teacher b/c they make me wonder "what if?" Anyway, if W and I are done for the night, I'll go back and finish it. If not, then I'll keep it on pause, I guess.
Thank you for checking in and giving your input. I'm glad to know you think I did well. It seemed like the right thing to do at the time and as I re-read what I put down, I still agree w/ it as I'm owning my faults and will continue to do so.
OH MY GOD!!!!! That bought tears to my eyes !!!!! Thats amazing Rob, just incredible. I'm conviced now, shes single, the Snake is long gone (do you think so too?). And I'm sure she still cares.
Soooo...when you were in the R, you basically never trusted her and were suspicious (and controlling?) becuase of YOUR insecurities (as you said in an earlier thread) and it did what often happens, it drove her away. Seems like thats the crux of what she is saying. Although she is clearly deeply deeply stuck in her hurt and she is very angry at you, becuase although you kept explaining, ok, I get it now, it was wrong, but I'm addressing it in T, she kept saying "but you hurt me". I guess you may have to apologise over and over again for that and keep saying yes I did, and you are right and I take full responsibility for my past actions and have learnt some very hard and valuable lessons since you walked out. I guess you wouldnt have got to this point, or seen the light, or done soemthing about your behaviour, or got T if she hadnt have walked out?
I loved this bit, it was amazing, well done!
Quote:
W: ok. crying. I need to put D to bed. RTL: Funny and ironic as I'm crying too. I am always available to talk to you about this or anything else. All you have to do is ask and I'll be there for you.
W: F@ck! Where were you before when my husband ignored and abandoned me?
This is like where the book says, dont tell them you have changed, SHOW them your changes and even then, they have to be consistent over time and the WAS takes a LOOONG time to begin to believe it.
So, broken record technique, if she brings it up again?.. I'm sorry, yes I behaved badly, I am learning to not behave that way...I am always here for you ... etc
You did really really well, I'm impressed and I wouldnt worry about the deposition thing, all you did here was own up to behaving in ways that lots of R suffer from, lack of trust in her due to your own insecurities.. I can think of 3 husbands I know that are behaving exactly the same (and their W are at the end of their tether and thinking of leaving). I think under that kind of oppressive love, it makes you want to go out and have an affair, as they are so convinced you are anyway! Its perverse, but its human nature. It wasnt the way to solve the problem though, she should have just talked to you (maybe she will realise that in time), but I think you should work on the forgiveness for her EA/PA(?) it sounds like it was a desperate act to just get out of the R, because she felt so hurt and betrayed by your lack of trust in her.
God, it never ceases to amaze me lately how much hurt we can inflict on another person because of love.
Ali x
Me:40! H:37 Together: 12yrs IDLY & left 11/07 ADs 03/08 OW 8/08 Reconciled 05/09 now married! my thread
Rob, I am not at all surprised by the conversation. It was inevitable. You mentioned MC, are you 2 presently going or is that something you hope for in the future? From my point of view all your W's anger and accusations were not coming from someone who is done with the M , but someone who was furious at you. i hope for your D's sake your W has the good sense to delay the deposition to save money. If you decide to try to work things out , you will need it to repair the financial damage of the legal costs. Your W probably feels you put her through it, so she will do the same. However she needs to understand that you did not accuse her of rape and child abuse. You didn't trust her and drove her away? The court could care less, just the L's because they get paid to discover it. You could use the money to take D on a trip if you get back together, LOL. If you talk to W again maybe try to veer the conversation to what will be not what was. It may get her to focus on where she wants to go from here. BTW, you were amazing in that conversation, if that does not bring W around then there is truly nothing there. Yes there are many issues between you but you did manage to bring a child into the world together and both seem to love and want her. I think deep down you both want the same thing, to have your family intact and have the joy of raising her together, and to recapture was what once between you. I am so hoping this break in the ice will not refreeze!
Thanks for the support. I'm glad you think I did this pretty well. As for the OM (aka the Snake), I'm not so sure he's completely gone. I think he's still around, but for some reason, not as strongly as before.
Yes, I didn't have a clue I was behaving in a negative way until I went to therapy. In fact, when I first started therapy, I was still resisting it as I was convinced that W needed to change, not me. I didn't think I had any problems at all.
However, I did discover I'm a bit obsessive and a control freak of sorts b/c of my scattered childhood. I've also learned that I've been consumed w/ a fear of abandonment since neither of my parents were emotionally or physically available. I carried over this fear to my marriage as I would be terrified that W would leave me and thus would act in a controlling way toward her. Again, I didn't have a single clue I was doing any of this whatsoever until therapy. So, the therapy is a great move for me regardless of what happens w/ my M.
I too think I'll need to continue to be remorseful of hurting W and continue to show her I'm different now that I understand what it was I was doing that made her feel this way. My actions will have to prevail and it will take a considerable amount of time for that to happen. I'm willing to continue to work and be patient. Now the question is whether W is willing to do so as well.
As far as forgiveness of W, I can forgive her of all that she's done, but only if she's willing to retract the lies. We can work out anything together, but I can only meet her 1/2 way. She'll have to show that she wants to come the other 50% for it to work for us. Yesterday was a bit of a movement, so we'll see where it leads.
BTW-you said:
Quote:
it never ceases to amaze me lately how much hurt we can inflict on another person because of love.
I so totally agree, especially when we don't love ourselves 1st.
I'm glad you think I handled that well. I was nervous responding at first, but then I said "this may be a true DBing opportunity, so I should look to take it." I did bring up R stuff w/ her, but only after her leads. I'm still going to continue to let her drive the train on R talks.
I spoke w/ her tonight when D called and she brought up her father again. It seems as if he's getting worse and may have colon cancer to go along w/ his NHL in his blood. She's a wreck and she started talking about Christmas and I told her to go ahead and take it as well as Thanksgiving this year as it may be the last ones w/ her father. I know I'm not supposed to give things like that away, but under this circumstance, I felt it was appropriate. I also restated my offer to support her through this as she needs me to.
Finally about finances, I'm in deep and can't wait to move the house to pay my load down substantially. If we don't D, we'll still have a massive train wreck from the process that will take a few years to clean up. I'm ok w/ where I'll be, but I'd really rather get it moving - the house sale, that is - so I can get what I owe into a more managable sum.
