W and I piecing this M back together #2

[Rob1231]

Hi sandi, Boy, that's a tough one! But I'll give you my two cents.

First, I should tell you that I already DO know a lot about the affair. Lots of this from what was outwardly visible, and a lot more that I learned by snooping, back in the worst part of my sitch. I know many icky details of it, and I can say that I wish I didn't. But, that's from hindsight - if I did NOT know those details, would I still want to? So hard to say.

Next, here's my take on my own W's feelings about her A. She did this in the middle of a classic MLC, when she was depressed and lost. She built up OM into a romantic figure, then reality hit hard, and she eventually had to face it that she had pinned her hopes on a moody, obnoxious, self-centered a$$hole. (No editorializing there, eh?! ) So, she almost chucked her future out the window for THAT.

Today, I think her feeling about the A is lots of regret for a huge variety of reasons, from a huge helping of regret that she almost destroyed her family and her M, to (gulp) some very tiny part of her which regrets that she picked her OM so badly and regrets that it didn't work out. On top of that, add a really big helping of guilt and embarrassment.

I can only tell you what has worked for me in my sitch, and that was to let W dictate her 'terms' for coming back. In my case, that was to confess to the EA after it was over. The PA was never acknowledged, and I have never brought it up again. Because putting it behind her was what it took for W to move forward, with ME. I applied the test from Michelle, Will digging into the A get me closer to my goals, or push me farther away? And the answer was, I needed to move forward and let go of the past. I'm glad I did.

[sandi2]

Interesting comments. I hope some more will reply b/c I have read a lot of complaints from LBH about how their WW did not do or say whatever it was they wanted from them they returned home. So, I was curious as to what standard or model they had in mind that a WW should do and for how long, etc.

Rob and GIF has handled their stitch well, I think, by trying to understand the condition their W's were in, etc. Maybe some more will join in with their two cents. Hopefully, this could turn out to be helpful for several people if we could get enough to join in.

Sandi

[Lanzo]

Hi Sandi,

I'm not sure why, but the subject matter of this post where you are trying to generate a debate on what we LBS's expect got me quite riled maybe cos it sounded a bit flippant, maybe cos of the way my current sitch is going at the moment so I hope or would ask that it gets moved elsewhere. But anyway as you are looking for everyone's 2 cent here's mine

As a LBS I know what I want from W, but I know I won't get it , life is not fair but that's how it goes, so I try not to harp on about it. However if there was one small thing I could ask from W would be a modification in her behaviour.

For whatever reason she had she stepped out of our M and ok now shes's returned, she's not even acknowledged any wrong doing. Right, I accept and deal with that, but her behaviour towards me now is still the same as it was before the bomb, the only thing going in our favour is I can see things and I react differently so we don't get back to those days , weeks even months of not talking. And guess what I can't even talk about it with W cos that's classed as raking up the past. Really now I see situations develop and they are like pre-planned ambushes, I now see that arguments we get into are set up. It's really weird cos now I see things and its not me it's all about W. Someone tell me I'm wrong.

So if W had come back and said lets wipe the slate clean and move forward ok I'm big enough to deal with it, gritt my teeth and get on with it , no need to look back just keep going forward. But to be faced with someone who has come back and wants to ignore any misdemeanours and then carry on exactly where they left off is hard to take. So as I've said before it's not about a full confession from W, it's not about begging for forgiveness or it's not having to pay penance for years and years. For me it would just be a simple "I'm sorry", then move forwards as an equal partner in the R. I'm not seeing any equal ness at the moment.

I'm sorry if I sound a bit off at the moment but I see a person in front of me still consumed in their own self. I mean to have W say to me she doesn't know where I stand on our M really peed me off. And then out of the blue to accuse me of accusing her of planning to meet OM. (WTF, censored).

Anyway it feels like I'm swimming upstream at the moment, I probably need a long rest.

Lan

[sandi2]

Oh Lan.....I'm so sorry that I have upset you. I should not have posted that on your thread b/c even though it was not about you and your stitch......(remember what I said)

I am not directing this to Lan, even though it is on his thread.....it is just an open question to any of the men and I'll go find my bullet proof jacket before hitting the submit button.

It was not about you and your wife! I knew I would probably get attacked by some, but it was late and I was too tired to be posting b/c I had been reading too many other threads......and I was wanting to know what some others thought or expected from their WAW's upon returning home.....but I was not referring to you b/c I know how hard you have tried. It was b/c of everyone's frustration that it was on my mind (and especially my own frustration that caused me to post what I did). But, I should not have taken it upon myself to do it on your thread. If I had been really thinking about what I was doing at the time......perhaps I would have realized that it would hurt you for me to say all of that on your thread.....and sweetie, that is the last thing I would do to you. After all this time, I assumed (which, God help me...I have got to stop doing that) that you knew how much I have been in your corner all this time pulling for you and wanting your M to work out.

Forrest Gump really let me have it over in smartcookie's thread and even though he and I can't seem to understand each other, or maybe we are saying the same thing and I can't see it......the point is, he was right (as bad as I hate to admit it) that your thread was not the place to post this. I don't think that is exactly his words, but I think that he said there was another place on the board to do that.

Anyway, I am crying my eyes out now b/c I have hurt you and I am so sorry, honey, I would not do that for the world. I look at you as one of my own here on the board (and I hope you understand what I mean by that).

I have learned a lesson and that being that I should not post so late at night and especially after reading so much "stuff" b/c it will come out of me at the wrong place and time.

I know I'm repeating myself, but again, please know that none of that part of the post was meant to be directed to you or about you. I apologize and if I knew how to go back and delete it I would.....or if the moderator will do it for the sake of other's feelings....I wished they would. I want to be here as your friend as I always have been......not to get you discouraged, or riled up. I know you are struggling and doing everything you know how to do. I am not ALWAYS on the WAW's side of the stitch.

I don't know what else to say without repeating myself. I am sorry and I hope you can forgive me for hurting you.

Sandi

[Lanzo]

Sandi, no need for tears.

Look, what you were trying to do was to spark a reasonable discussion or debate on a subject matter a lot of us are close to. But my reasoning was that you started it in the wrong place, and certainly at the wrong time (for both of us). So all you need to do is say to yourself "Oopps, won't do that again in a hurry". Don't cry and certainly don't worry that you've upset me.

So as far as I'm concerned that matter is done with, we move on as friends cos we've both got a lot of work to do on this site and on ourselves.

Lan

((((((Sandi))))))

[Forrest Gump]

Hey Lan..

I came over here the other day to catch up.. and I saw Sandi2 post. Now you know me I was all ready to write some stuff down. I typed it out.. it was true FG style. Just as I was about to click submit.. something said don't do it. It just felt wrong.. I don't know why but it did. I just let it go.

Then I come and read today. I read another stitch where Sandi2 had posted. She indicated that she had upset someone. I knew where to read next.

I am a little concerned about you.

"I'm not sure why, but the subject matter of this post where you are trying to generate a debate on what we LBS's expect got me quite riled maybe cos it sounded a bit flippant, maybe cos of the way my current sitch is going at the moment so I hope or would ask that it gets moved elsewhere"

I have been a few steps ahead of you most of the time. I have walked thru alot of the same things.

"And guess what I can't even talk about it with W cos that's classed as raking up the past. Really now I see situations develop and they are like pre-planned ambushes, I now see that arguments we get into are set up. It's really weird cos now I see things and its not me it's all about W. Someone tell me I'm wrong."

You had time to look back on the stuff you did.. you had to come to terms with it. She has not had to do that. She has moved from place to place with all her stuff intact. Things are changing and the key point.. you guys being together.. you see eye to eye on. Keep that in mind. I am a little different than you.. I don't need to know. If I did I would have to use my Advanced DAM skills and come up with a solid way I could get her to come to me on the subject. You have to do something to keep it moving forward. You guys are not communicating effectively it one feels left out. We know what happens if this continues. I have had to many times bite my tongue on things and say to her.. I need your help here. How do I approach this subject. The second I see her balking I slow down. Then continue on asking her for input the whole way. The more I do this.. the closer we become. The more we work together. I have not had to walk thru the discussion you are trying to have.. so I don't know how much I can help. If you want to throw up some specific situations.. I'll get my spin mode working for you.

Keep looking forward. Let me know if I can help.

And to Sandi2.. Thanks for all you have done. We are not that far apart. I appreciate all the advice you have handed out. I have no ill feelings toward you. Again.. I have a post that would be great for your discussion. If you want me to put it there.. let me know. I again am curious what some of the answers may be.

[Lanzo]

Hey FG,

I am not trying to have "That" conversation with W I'm beyond that now, I know what I know, I even know more than I should know so I'm way, way, beyond needing to get everything out into the open. I don't talk about the past or anything like that but it's like I have to watch everything I do or say cos it W somhow turns it round to being me raking up the past. That is why I go WTF !! it's probably easiest for me to sit in silence and don't move then the past can't be brought up.

Let me give you example. We are talking about decorating the house together. W asks me when do I think we should start so I start suggesting days, well on these days shes either, having her hair done, having her nails done, out shopping with MIL, or going to a party with b/f. Ok I now know in woman speak that she wants me to do the decorating on my own and she checks in on me from the hair dressers or wherever she is but remember we've discussed this and we're doing things together. So when I suggest rather than go to the party we should be decorating, well that was it, W turns that round to me accusing her of not going to the party but going out of town (to meet OM) because she is the designated driver that night. WTF, I didn't even know she was gonna drive. Then she adds the party is not in the town where she met OM but if she wants to go there she can and I'm not gonna stop her. All I said was lets decorate rather than party and I get all her guilt laden troubles dropped on me from a great height. [ W T F in great big capital letters]. Her past is her past, I avoid it but she puts it in front of us and gets me to trip over it. And as I said be for I can't discuss it with her cos that would be me raking up the past.

Anyway we've got over that little spat but that's just one example of how I feel I get set up, trapped in to an argument.

I am a little concerned about you.

Why ?

Things are changing and the key point.. you guys being together.. you see eye to eye on.

We don't always see eye to eye but then again it wouldn't be a marriage if we agreed on everything.

You guys are not communicating effectively it one feels left out.

Exactly the point. But I can't say to W we are not communicating effectively cos that will have some reference to the past and she doesn't want to talk about the past, so in some respects we just move blindly forward. And yes I know full well what happens then.


So at the moment I'm not stuck in my own troubles looking for advice I just lettting you all know that it's [censored]hard work piecing this [censored]M back together. And it feels like I'm doing it on my own.

Lan

[Lanzo]

PS to the above

Sandi you can still talk to me, you input is still very much apprieciated.

Lan

[Rob1231]

Hi Lanzo, I really can appreciate where you are right now. Before getting into specifics, let me just remind you - Time and Patience. They got you this far, stick with it.

For whatever reason she had she stepped out of our M and ok now shes's returned, she's not even acknowledged any wrong doing.

Hmmm, I wonder. Yeah, she hasn't thrown herself at your feet and begged for forgiveness. (Geez, wouldn't that be nice? I honestly mean that!)

But from what you've said, she is still acting very guilty - even to the point of acting irrational about it. To me, it seems that even if you have forgiven her, she hasn't forgiven herself. My guess is that this would be a pretty tough thing to carry around inside yourself.

Right, I accept and deal with that, but her behaviour towards me now is still the same as it was before the bomb, the only thing going in our favour is I can see things and I react differently so we don't get back to those days, weeks even months of not talking.

Don't underestimate the power of what you just said! I can't remember if this idea came from MWD, Dr. Phil, or some other R guru, but I have always liked it. [i]A relationship, by definition, is the interaction of two people. And if one person changes their role in the R, the entire R must change as a result.

And guess what I can't even talk about it with W cos that's classed as raking up the past. Really now I see situations develop and they are like pre-planned ambushes, I now see that arguments we get into are set up. It's really weird cos now I see things and its not me it's all about W. Someone tell me I'm wrong.

You're not wrong - you nailed it exactly. It is all about W at this point - you've been doing some serious learning and growing to reach where you are, while she went spinning around in the crazy land of MLC. Now that she's coming out of that - well, she's got some serious catching up to do. It will take a while. And although you've set a good example for her, keep in mind that she has to learn to trust this path as she puts herself upon it.

So if W had come back and said lets wipe the slate clean and move forward ok I'm big enough to deal with it, gritt my teeth and get on with it, no need to look back just keep going forward. But to be faced with someone who has come back and wants to ignore any misdemeanours and then carry on exactly where they left off is hard to take. So as I've said before it's not about a full confession from W, it's not about begging for forgiveness or it's not having to pay penance for years and years. For me it would just be a simple "I'm sorry", then move forwards as an equal partner in the R. I'm not seeing any equal ness at the moment.

Even if that's what she wans to do, you W can't come to you and say "Let's wipe the slate clean". She can't believe it's that simple, and that forgiveness and new beginnings are that easy. (If she could, she would not have been off in MLC Land, right?)

I'm sorry if I sound a bit off at the moment but I see a person in front of me still consumed in their own self. I mean to have W say to me she doesn't know where I stand on our M really peed me off. And then out of the blue to accuse me of accusing her of planning to meet OM. (WTF, censored).

Anyway it feels like I'm swimming upstream at the moment, I probably need a long rest.

Lan

You seem to be seeing this pretty clearly, Lan. Now you just need to realize that this is how it works - no quick fixes at this stage either! Hang in there and try to give yourself and W some slack to keep making baby steps. I've said this before about my own sitch, there are no Big Hollywood Moments - the slow, steady path of DBing continues.

[Lanzo]

Hmmm, I wonder. Yeah, she hasn't thrown herself at your feet and begged for forgiveness. (Geez, wouldn't that be nice? I honestly mean that!)

See Rob, Sandi said the same thing on my thread and it got me a bit riled (No Sandi I'm not mad at you I'm just mad at the subject matter) same again here Rob, no I am not looking for W to throw herself at my feet begging for forgiveness. I know that won't happen. A simple sorry would have been nice, at the bare minimum acknowledge something went wrong and actually say lets try again. W hasn't even said that, so if I was a bit thick and I didn't understand we would be in deep do do. So cos she hasn't said anything I have to go off her actions, mainly positive I would say, but sometimes when she talks to me like I'm a POS how should I react. The words and the actions don't always match so it's easy to get confused, frustrated angry etc. But me being an advance DAM (Yeah Forrest) I know how to act and react so things don't get out of hand.

All that being said today W has been feeling sorry for herself a little bit and wanted plenty of hugs and TLC cos one of her many ailments was playing her up. So I gave her great big hugs and kisses and I got an IRRLY (I really, really love you) the first this year, this should really be a special moment, something to hold on to, something to carry me through the coming week. But later in the day cos I couldn't get her mp3 player working the very instance she asked for it she was very short with me and talked to me like I had sh1t for brains. WTF, Well that used to be a trigger point for me, but I just let it slide. That my friends is what I now call a WTF moment, one minute nice the next very snappy with me. So when I said on a previous post, I think in response to Sandi, that I just want W to modify her behavior a little bit, this is just one example.

Overall things are ok cos I'm learning, learning, learning and not letting myself get caught up in the old arguments, but sometimes I feel I'm bending too much to keep things afloat when really I could do with a little bit of help from W. I can't see that coming just yet.


Lanzo