Karen and I wanted your opinion on something in my situation. Can you check it out? I am really trilled that you can look at your H and hold your H and have the love for him that he so richly deserves. Bravo!! kat
Me-53(and learning!) S24, S21, D18, D17 Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming. Dory
Ok, here is my first moment to post today. I wish I knew how to do that thing where you show what people said in a box and then comment on it. COuld someone tell me please? This time I will have to do it the old fashioned way.
GoingForward- Yes, I have read the 5 Love Languages and so has H. But, maybe we should revisit it. Right now, we have about 4 books to go through. Thanks for the reminder about my H's feelings and how they will go up and down and that it is normal. I will need to be reminded that because this is tough.
Yoyo- You asked what made me decide to go back to H. Here it is: My H finally did something to work on us. He finally went to a counselor on his own. He began to do things that he never did: hugged me even though I cringed and didn't hug back, told me when I looked nice, rubbed my foot when we were talking, looked happy, made plans to work with a trainer on his own, etc. He started showing me affection. I got to thinking that he was starting to give me no reason to leave him and I knew that I would not be able to "feel" the love he was showing with the OM still in the picture. The OM was pushing for us to move to the next step and I knew I couldn't do it. The OM and I were having fights all the time over the fact I couldn't reassure him about the future. I started realizing that I didn't want to leave my H. I thought about my son and how I would rather die than have him part time. I had so much guilt about sinning, too. I was getting headaches all the time, and crying at night. I was tired of the limbo and wanted to finally do something. Since OM was pushing and fighting with me, and H was doing these "new things", and my son was on my mind, I decided to work on it with H. It wasn't the OM that I wanted to be happy with, it was my husband. BUt, is that possible? I told myself to be prepared to tell H if he ever asks about me and whether I've had an A. He asked something and I had to tell him. The minute I told him the OM had less meaning to me immediately. I told him to come home right now. He came. It was after 11 PM. We stayed up and talked and cried. I felt so awful about what I did. The very next day, I saw my priest and confessed my sins to God with him. I talked to him and prayed. Once you tell GOd and promise to repent, it is impossible to do it again, at least for me anyway. As much as I have thought about things, I know I won't ever have an affair again. I realize that is not the solution. I need to try everything to make this marriage happy. If, in the end, I am not happy, then I will divorce. But, I won't have an affair and then divorce. My mindset is that my H and I will be married forever, but we have a lot of work to do. I am putting a lot of hope in the retrouvaille that we are going to in July. I am trusting what people say about the OM feelings fading. I am reading books all the time to learn about my feelings and why I felt the way I did with the OM, etc.
Looking at your 3 choices of what author's say......the first one, the guilt trip....would never have worked during the first OM, because I felt like it was H's fault that I did what I did. By the end, I was feeling guilty on my own....I had to feel it on my own. I probably would have been mad if my H had tried to do it. HE was the problem, not me....is what I thought at the time.
The second one, the GAL method, is pretty much what my H did. I know I hated the "victim look". It pissed me off. I was much more interested in H when he was doing fun things and "happy". In fact, any time he did something with out me I got worried and jealous. Had he done that more, it may have stopped me sooner. I had ultimately made the decision on my own (knowing my H had made changes and went to a counselor to do something). BUT, remember, he didn't "Know" that I had an affair. He didn't WANT to know.
The last method, tough love. That's tricky because it would have been all about the timing. THere were days where I thought if he ever did that I was gone. There were other days where I thought if he did that I would have stopped all of my sh** right then and there. Early on, with the first OM, I probably would have left him. AFter that, if he had forced me, I probably would have chosen him because that is where I was realizing I wanted to be. But, he hadn't done anything until the very end.
hope4us- I got the "Not Just Friends" book finally and I see about the affair "losing its luster". I need to read more.
h4h- I agree. I am not going to tell how much I think about the OM. That will not help us. I will say (if he ever asks) that I still have thoughts of OM, but they are less and less and YOU are the one I want to be with.
CBK-thanks for the hugs and kind words. You have no idea how much they mean to me.
Klm- He didn't ask to read the letter. Thank God.
Puppy- You are right, my H IS a keeper. AND thank you for thinking I am, too.
Sara- I will be burning the letter as soon as I can. I haven't had time to myself yet.
Jeff- I liked your idea of planning a trip together. You are right, we need to make some new big memories together. I hope you are right that our life together will be wonderful. I'm still worried. I really want to get there, though.
Kat- Ok, what did you want me to give you an opinion on? I'll help ya if I can.
I feel bad asking now because we all look to you so much. I just wanted to get your opinion. About a year ago my H was telling me how I should put off any big thing until this, his 40th, birthday. H was also dropping hints about how the apt. he was staying at had a balcony( when we were in college had a few hot s*x times out on the balcony) and I knew that was what he was eluding to. Why would he be bring this stuff up? Is he just messing with me or was he thinking of me and wanted me to know it? It was said better on my own thread so you check there if you want. Thanks. kat
Me-53(and learning!) S24, S21, D18, D17 Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming. Dory
Don't ever feel bad about asking me my opinion. I soooo need all of your opinions, and you have been so supportive of me. Let me go to your thread and respond.
Hi whatdidido....looks like I missed some crises. My apologies.
Anyhow. I will toss out some points that were touched on or haven't been :
1. I mentioned Not Just Friends by Shirley Paige a short time ago, and I suggested that along with Divorce Remedy, good to see you picked it up..its a book worth keeping.
2. If the OM tries to contact you again, save the communication and turn it over to the OM immediately. NEVER contact the OM even to tell him to stop contacting you.
If you DO that and your husband catches you, then you are back at SQUARE ONE and the climb is a LOT steeper. NEVER NEVER NEVER have a private communication with the OM EVEN if you PLAN to tell your husband the whole thing later. Your husband will be TOO HURT TO TRUST that you would have told him and he likley wont give you a chance to prove it.
You took a SERIOUS risk talking to the OM without letting your husband in the loop..please NEVER do that again!!! I KNOW your heart was in the right place, but that is a VERY SERIOUS RISK you took, you are just VERY LUCKY your husband didn't catch you before you told him. If your husband had walked in and saw you having that coversation, that may have been the END of your MARRIAGE, RIGHT THERE.
I had a talk with my gf about this, she insists the OM is "just waiting", but the OM is talking to her all the time. The OM KNOWS he's interfering and terrorizing our home, the OM KNOWS he's a huge influence on her. YOUR OM should have signed off as soon as he found out you went back to your husband. He NEVER should have written that letter. He's interfering, even if you were still separated and confused.
As soon as a separated person even HINTS that they are having doubts about leaving the affair partner must LEAVE and NEVER contact the spouse again until all contact with husband is over and the divorce is final.
Sorry but the OM again should not have written any letter, he put your marriage at risk writing it and he KNOWS it. He never should have had the convo with you on IM. If you drop out of contact with him, he needs to just find out safely some how through athird party or something wher eyou are at.
Sorry, but this guy really is trouble and he needs to realise that. Him pushing for closure like this almost put your marriage and your family into a grave.
The BEST way to communicate to the OM is as a COUPLE. ANY letters you send theOM should be written with full visibility of your husband and read and signed by both of you. NO PERSONAL commentary in there. Just write "we wish no further contact..." etc Always use "we" and sign both names at the bottom.
Your husband must view your efforts as a couple and you two must face him and any interference by him as a couple. If your husband does not WANT to read the letter then at least let him KNOW you are writing it as a couple and putting both names on it.
Sending the OM messages as an individual sends the OM mixed signals, ESPECIALLY done in SECRET you silly girl... lol
When you send the OM a secret message like you did, you are telling him you stil have feelings, that he's special and that you still have some love for him etc. You CANT DO THAT or your marriage is in SEROIUS jeapoardy.
Sorry, I know your heart is in the righ tplace, but NEVER do that again.
As far as your husband wanting to know when you think about the OM.
I would suggest you ask him to talk to his counsellor about that. I would also ensure this counsellor is solution oriented and is using the approaches in "Not Just Friends"...his counsellor could be counterproductive here...Michele Davis has said herself that marriage therapy can do a LOT of damage if it isn't pursued wisely.
If I were you I would tell him "I will tell you if he contacts me, but other than that I would rather try to focus on YOU, my husband. I am not trying to hide anything, but the more we focus on that, the further we are from a happy marriage. Please let me move forward and love you as much as I can. Talking about unpleasant things makes them more unpleasant doens't it? That life is DONE and OVER, its never coming back.
What I CAN do is come to you and love you if things get difficult for me, so know that I am coming to you when I need someone. I don't have thoughts of him, only of regrets and the time we lost, but I am happy now, and I am thankful that we have each other again. I will feel sad from time to time for a short while, but I love you, and my sadness is only for what we missed, but what we now have back."
Anyhow something like this above would be good I think.
I think rather than just looking at it as "thinking about the OM", look at HOW you are thinking of him, and share THAT part.
if you are thinking about the OM, push yourself to think in ways that make your husband your source of romance, and the OM the intruder to that thought instead. You just have to PUSH yourself, but you can do it.
I am trying to understand what your husband meant when he asked you to tell him when you are thinking about the OM. I am trying to understand in what context this makes sense.
1. He means that he wants COMPLETE warning when you are having any doubts about your marriage so you go to your husband first and don't get lead astray...I like this one, it makes sense in this way.
2. He means he wants to know where HE stands with you relative to the OM. He wants to know you love him MORE than the OM and is using how frequently you claim to think about the OM to gauge how you feel about your husband. Its good to know where one stands, but this isnt' a goodway to gauge how you feel. Again try to let your husband know how frustrated you feel and how happy you are that you have found again what you lost for a short time.
3. He may be feeling vulnerable and still doenst' trust you, so he wants to know what's in your head at all times. Again, being fully transparent and an open book to him is what he needs to trust you again. If you tell him you are fantasizing about the OM that won't help either of you.
He just wants to know he can trust you...so tell him the only times you think about the OM are thoughts of what was lost, which fade over time. He wants you to be an open book, then be the open book, but you choose HOW you open it for him ok? Don't just blurt what comes to mind...think about what he's looking to hear.
Those are some ideas as to what he meant by that request...again read NJF it has TONS of great ideas on how to heal a broken marriage.
In addition to the book, i would rent "Unfaithful", its a great film that came out in 2002. It has Richard Gere and Diane Lane in it. Do NOT share this with your husband...have a girls night with some female friends and rent this or something...do NOT share this with your husband, it will upset him, but it WILL HELP YOU get past the OM...guaranteed. Go spent the night with some female friends...call in to your husband and let him know where you are, that you are thinking of him etc...call him lots.
But find some time to get to see that film but DON'T expose your husband to it. That would NOT help you...educational film for affair participants, bad for the betrayed spouse. You will see in the film how both you and your husband are victims of an affair, and how intrusive the OM in affairs really is. Watch it as soon as you can.
Thanks, Mark. As always you give me some good things to think about and act on. I'm going to get that video, and I'll be sure to watch it alone.
You are right that I should have made my H more of a partner in the decision of what to do about the letter, etc. It's kind of strange, really. My H says he trusts me, and I really see that he does. He knows that I will never do it again and that I will always tell him if OM contacts me. He knows I will do the right thing. I really feel like the "trust building" is something we don't need to focus on as much as others. I know that seems strange, but he knows me....he knows I am extremely remorseful. In fact, if it weren't for me reassuring him on my own, he would never ask me to. In fact, if anything, I seem to be all of the sudden worried he will do it back to me. It's all in my head.
The thing he has the most trouble with are the flashes of thought with me and the OM, and working on our marriage as a whole. He was pretty guilty himself during the last 3 years. He, unlike the rest of the men on here, did NOTHING to try to save our marriage the last 3 years up until about 4-5 months ago. He didn't know I was having an A. We barely talked. He moved out. He was more upset about the change it made in his schedule...not about being away from me. He came to the home every day to be with son, I usually left or went upstairs. Then, when son went to bed, he pretty much left. It became his new routine. You can see how things happened. He knows he is equally at fault. What I did is a sin and the ultimate in betrayal, but what he did was pretty awful as well. He knows this. I had told him over and over what I needed/wanted. He did nothing. I realize that telling him didn't communicate the way he needed me too, but goodness. He didn't tell me anything he needed. He tells me now that he was waiting for me to come to him. Power struggle? For 3 years? He knows he is passive-aggressive. He finally went to a counselor and the counselor helped him see that he needs to do something. He finally did. Because he did, I was finally able to "come back to him". Why didn't I go to him? Work at it and work at it? I should have. I should have forced him to go see a counselor sooner. I should have told him before I had an affair and tell him that I was close to having one. There are many things I should have done. But, at the time, it felt like I had done everything to tell him over and over what I needed and he didn't do anything. He put everything else in front of me. I was last on his priority list. Anyway, to say all of this doesn't really help I guess. I had the A, and I shouldn't have. Now, not only all of the other many problems we have, we now have the A to deal with on top of it all. But, I try to look at it as a wake up call, and I hope that after retrouvaille, we will be able to move forward and be happy.
I still worry about the feelings I have for him. I feel, at times, that I married him so long ago because I knew he would be a good Dad, provider, my parents would like him, Catholic, etc. I don't remember the "in love" phase with him being very strong. I remember it being fun and exciting and new. But, not the passion, etc. I always felt as if something was missing from Day 1. The thing that held us together was our belief in no divorce basically. I'm hoping I'm wrong, and lately, as the OM gets less in my thoughts I do see feelings emerge , as little as they are. I love so many things about my H. I just wish we had something to look back on. We both have said we dont have any memories to try to get back to. We just never had that passionate, love stage.
Ok, this is getting long.
I'd appreciate any thoughts anyone has about this. Or , even reiterating things that have already been said. Sometimes I just need to hear things over and over to believe/understand them.
OK, all this guilt and mea culpa is a little strong for my stomach. Especially in the morning.
Retrouvaille can only help you, cause they don't make you do this stuff. You talk about what you did wrong briefly, apologize and move on. It is garbage, the worst kind, and it breeds unhappiness the way garbage breeds flies. You have to stop dragging it around with you everywhere you go.
As for your memories, I believe you will find them too. I forget how long you say you were married. But I'm sure you have a wealth of good memories -- you just buried them. It does help when you have an affair, not to have good memories of the marriage interfering. And this is something you should at least start to touch on at Retrouvaille. But it would be a good thing for you and your husband to discuss things like -- What was the nicest thing you and I did together? And how do I feel about that? Or, Think of a time when we were really happy together, how did it make me feel? These are better thoughts than all this guilt.
You've got a long time til July. You will have to move your thoughts out of all this sifting through the sewage of your lives and into the good times.
I was explaining my thoughts so that others can understand where I am coming from and where my H is coming from.
As for keeping the garbage around. I may have incinuated that H and I are discussing this back and forth and playing the blame game, but that is not so. We are only doing things for the future, and having talks about the future. I just brought those things up in hopes that others having my whole story would help with advice giving.
We are married 12 years. We have nice memories. We both agree that we can't think of a time we were both laughing and bursting with happiness. Even at the very beginning. The nicest thing he and I did together? Hmmmmm.....every good thing has a bad thing associated with it. The wedding- he was focused on his mom the whole time, the honeymoon- on our 7 day cruise we had sex 1 time, camping trip- went through the motions no romance, I could go on and on.... I cannot think of a time where we were truly happy together...I mean TRULY happy. I can think of LOTS of times we were content and comfortable, kind of like a close friend. He agrees with this. Maybe there is something blocking it, but then it is blocking him, too...because we both can't come up with anything.
I know my thoughts are counterproductive and you are going to tell me to knock it off, but this worries me. I can say that I am going to think all happy happy thoughts and everything is grand and wonderful and woo hoooooo but it just is not true. We have a lonnnnnng way to go. Most couples have SOMETHING To look back to. We don't. It's hard to believe, but it is true. We didn't have the "in love stage". It was almost like an arranged marriage.
I'm really having a hard day. I suggested that I come to have dinner with H today. He works late. He said that he already made his dinner, etc. I said that didn't matter, etc. Then, he said to come. After more talking, he admitted he really didn't want us to come...breaking his routine, etc. He doesn't get happy thinking about seeing me. I'm just in a really depressed mood. Am I feeling sorry for myself? Yeah, probably. Do I have a right to? No, probably not. But, that's how i'm feeling. Yeah, yeah...garbage self talk. I should be more positive. I should be more understanding about the way he is and understand that just because he didn't want to see us today doesn't mean he doesn't love me. I should understand that just because I feel fake most of my time with him, that actions will breed feelings. Sorry I'm not so inspiring today.
Thanks for the reminder about my H's feelings and how they will go up and down and that it is normal. I will need to be reminded that because this is tough.