Another new topic! already? Here we go

[Aud31]

Not selfish--it's a lot of work to slog through a ton of threads to find info, so I'll go ahead and summarize:

H and I met in high school and dated for five years (two years long distance). I thought I knew everything there was to know about him. We came from similar family backgrounds, same religion, were together nearly every free moment--compatible in every way. We married and built a house ourselves, worked long and hard hours for family businesses. After a couple years, I was ready for a baby, he didn't say much about it. It didn't just happen for us, but about three years later, we finally had our first baby girl. He started working for a new company just before the pregnancy. The job involved a great deal of travel, which I thought was cool at first--how exciting for him to experience new places, and I could go along sometimes too.

Baby girl was a life-changing experience, of course. I thought she was a normal baby, but he thought she was loud and a lot of work. (I didn't know he felt this way until later). He was leaving for two weeks at a time every 6-8 weeks at this point. I didn't go along anymore--too much hassle with a baby. I did my best to be a good mom, to keep our home running and to be supportive of him. Nothing exciting...but I thought we were happy. When baby was about 18 months old, I decided it was time to think about another. I asked him what he thought about that. He said, "Do whatever you want to do." (Should have been a red flag, but I admit to being a bit dense at this point.) So I took the fertility drug and baby #2 was on the way.

H seemed less than enthused about having another. He didn't say much when I asked him about it. We both come from big families, when we'd talked about how many kids we wanted, I'd always mentioned 3-4, he'd always said 1-2 in a joking kind of way...I didn't realize how strongly he felt about it, and I just assumed we wanted the same things I did. He kept traveling and started distancing himself. I've since found emails that suggest an EA was turning to a PA during this time.

Our son was born and H was distant, wouldn't hold the baby, was traveling even more. I didn't understand his aloofness and was devastated. He finally told me that he was struggling with anger at me for the second pregnancy. Couldn't stand to be in our home. I went to counseling by myself, learned about taking care of myself, agonized over his distance from me. I found an intimate valentine from OW a year later. Confronted him. He denied anything beyond friendship was going on. We went on a trip, I ended up prego with surprise baby number 3, and was devastated, sure he was going to be outta here. He was not happy, kept up his traveling, but didn't leave me.

When our new daughter was 3 months old, weird things started happening again, and I surprised him by following him to a hotel room he was sharing with a new OW 900 miles from our home. I figured everything was over at that point. We separated. In the aftermath of the bomb, a friend shared DR with me, and I tried to DB. I can't say I was perfect, but I gained a lot of strength and learned a lot more. He seemed perfectly happy with the situation.

After about nine months of separation I followed him in another state again...he was out with OW1. I told him I would be filing for D. I could no longer play along while he enjoyed a double life...part-time H and father here at home and playboy when he was on the road. He came home and decided that he wanted to move back in and work on us.

It's been a little over a year since then, and things seem mostly good. I mentioned the efforts he's put forth on my thread. He has not fully complied with any of the stipulations I put on our reconciliation: 1-no more traveling alone, 2-go to counseling, 3-end contact with OW...but he has made some baby steps. Baby steps combined with aforementioned efforts, I have felt that there has been enough forward motion to continue with our current sitch.

And that's it in a nutshell. Whew. I hate that I was so oblivious in the first place. And that he was capable of doing what he did. But I'm happy to be where I am now...my family is worth the challenge.

Hope that wasn't too much for ya.

[LoginName]

Hey Aud,
I've got a proposal of sorts for you. It may help both of us, since we're kind of in the same boat.

You say your H won't share, open up, and especially not discuss the tough topics.

Do you want to share you feelings with me? And I mean your feelings, not your thoughts, logical ideas, analysis, but how you feel. If you would like, I would try to share how I feel too, although it's hard to put into words (once I see them in words, I become judgemental and think I'm pretty stupid for feeling the way I do - but hey, the feelings are there and have to be dealt with, so they aren't silly).

I want to give advice, solve the problems, but I don't have the answers. I think I have to learn and understand more before I can figure it all out, or know what I can and can't figure out.

On a related, but not the same topic (really), what has your H failed to do from your list? IC is what I'm thinking. Maybe he still travels alone too. Hopefully that's it. How is he with the kids? How are the kids?

back to feelings. When I try to express how I feel to my W, how I want passion, I want to be wanted, chosen, desired, understood: she hears it as I want more sex. I can't seem to get my point across. I come across, to her, as needy and spoiled.

Well, I'm tired of saying I'm wrong, that I want to much, that I shouldn't be needy. I do have needs and wants and I'm not going to settle or be a martyr. I'm going to figure this out and make it work.

I don't know what making it work means. I think I do, but it could have more to do with me learning something about myself and changing instead of more passion in my M/R. I could mean my W and I go our separate ways.

It will take courage. I don't want to lose my W, or see my family split. It hurt worse than anything when she left. I'd rather not go through that again. But if I have to go through pain to be healthy, I'll do it. I'm afraid of her rejection, of her leaving, of her not being able to be the passionate kind of woman I desire, of me truly being a spoiled needy sexually obsessed guy. I have to push myself to face those fears and keep exploring, asking, and pushing.

I'd love to get this process done in a week, but I'm guessing it's going to take years. I'm hoping my W will stick around and go through it with me, regardless of what deep, evil things might pop up. I'm guessing she has a similar journey to go on; in parallel hopefully.

I don't know Aud, what do you think? What do you feel? What are you afraid of? Can you picture the worst thing that could happen, face it, and keep standing? If not, what will you do?

You want passion and closeness too. Are you needy? My guess is your not, but is anybody who wants something more needy?

How does it feel? To me, it feels like rejection. I'm not good enough, or I'm defective in some way to even want what I want. It's hard to feel that way. But you know, she left, for OM no less, and I'm OK. I like me. That feels good. I know I'm strong. I know I can make it, and thrive, on my own.

But I want someone with me on the journey. I'm not willing to sacrifice myself to have that someone, but I would like to have a companion.

My wife is a good person. I want her, I chose her, to be my companion. How do I make that work? How do I, or better yet, we (I'm shouldn't be doing this all on my own), merge our two independent lives?

aaaaaaagh. At one time it was easy. That was so long ago, so many years ago.

And, in closing :-D things continue to be pretty darn good. It's hard being physically separated as we are, but we talk, we connect (just not as often or as deeply as I'd like). I have a lot of hope.

Does any of this mirror what you are feeling and thinking, Aud?

[Aud31]

Yeah, a lot of what you say mirrors what I'm thinking and feeling...when I let myself go there. I'd be happy to discuss feelings with you.

You say your H won't share, open up, and especially not discuss the tough topics.

I don't know what really goes on in his head. He usually cops out and says 'nothing' when I ask, (I need to say here that I have a grasp of the concept of the male ability to actually be able to think about nothing) but he has to have some feelings about what we've been through and where we're going. Beyond that, I've taken his positive actions as declarations of his feelings for me and his desire to keep things together.

what has your H failed to do from your list?

-H has cut his traveling by 90%. He has invited me to come along on some trips, but has still had to do some traveling alone. He went to dinner with OW and her current significant other both times he was on his own--by his own account. I hate that, but as far as I know, he's being honest about it.
-H went to counseling with me two or three times and was obviously not willing to participate. He wants no part of it.
-H is still in occasional contact with OW via phone/email/text. Despite my several attempts to let him know I want to be in the loop, he does not volunteer information, but does answer when I ask (which I don't like to do, and don't do often)...he gives me all kinds of info at that point. It sounds friendly, something I am not comfortable with, but I don't see what I can do about it.

Writing those things makes me feel angry and disappointed that he can't/won't follow through on what to me are simple and certainly reasonable requests. And fearful that I'm a fool for allowing the possibility that he's still cheating on me. However, I decided a long time ago that there are more important things than my pride (as long as I recognize my own value and refuse to be abused) and I know my perspective is just that: MY perspective. He's home most of the time, connects with me in many ways that were absent for a long time during his A's. Truthfully, we never had the deep connection I am looking for before all the turmoil. It was always just an easy companionship.

Can you picture the worst thing that could happen, face it, and keep standing?

I think that I've been through most of the worst things I could imagine as far as H and I go. And yes, I can face it and keep standing. So far so good.

Are you needy?

Yes and no. Aren't we all in some ways? I don't think having needs makes us needy--it's more about how we approach them. I see it like a teeter-totter: On one side there's self-care and responsibility, on the other there's whining and feelings of entitlement. And our level of neediness depends on where we're standing on the board between the two ends. Make sense? Enough about me.

When I try to express how I feel to my W, how I want passion, I want to be wanted, chosen, desired, understood: she hears it as I want more sex. I can't seem to get my point across. I come across, to her, as needy and spoiled.

I get your feelings here...I feel the same way often too. Any ideas what it is about your approach that encourages her to see you as needy and spoiled?

To me, it feels like rejection. I'm not good enough, or I'm defective in some way to even want what I want. It's hard to feel that way.

It IS hard to feel that way. It's fear. And you said yourself that you made it through, that you like who you are. So, why do you still feel this? Or, why do you still allow yourself to feel like this? Just curious. (I have similar feelings from time to time, but I find them to be non-productive, so I try to accept them for what they are and just let them drop.)

things continue to be pretty darn good. It's hard being physically separated as we are, but we talk, we connect (just not as often or as deeply as I'd like). I have a lot of hope.

I could have written this myself. Hope you have a nice day.

[LoginName]

wow, quite a reply. thanks.

Have you read men are from mars, women from venus? It talks about how men don't don't, and what to do about it. I think there is some value in this idea, but limited. Still, you might want to look into, if you haven't already.

Seeing his other ways of communicating is good, like his actions. Good thinking.

At least the OW has a new significant other. And your H seems open about what he is doing. I don't know why so many people won't go to counseling. If your having trouble with your golf swing, you go to a pro. We aren't born knowing how to do everything in life, like how to be married. Somethings wrong, why not go to a pro, or coach. Makes sense to me. Even if everything is really good, you might learn something that would make it even better.

Of course, I've heard there are a lot of bad counselors out there. (Maybe people think they're bad 'cause the C tells them things they don't want to hear?)

I don't think we're needy, or, our spouses are just as needy.

Any ideas what it is about your approach that encourages her to see you as needy and spoiled?

Not really. I know I hate the way the dog will follow me around, with those stupid eyes, begging for what he wants. It pisses me off. I really hope that's not what my W thinks I'm like.

Here's an idea. I express a need and ask, in a way, for her to help me satisfy that need. She feels inadequate and is afraid she will fail to meet my expectations. Her fear of failure makes her not want to help me, and it makes her angry. Or, maybe, subconsciencely (spelling?) I do try to manipulate her, guilt her, into it, so she resents me for that. Or, because she has always, in her mind, done for others and to please others, she is resentful and I am the person she feels secure enough with to express that resentment and anger. Or.... ???

And you said yourself that you made it through, that you like who you are. So, why do you still feel this? Or, why do you still allow yourself to feel like this?

If I said to hell with it, I want a divorce, I'm going on my own, then it would be easy. I have to face the feeling of rejection, have the courage to do it, have the courage to ask for what I want, express my feelings, risk rejection, in order to build the marriage. I can stand the feeling of rejection. I can deal with it. But it's still scary and difficult. I'm thinking facing those fears, taking a chance, is the only way. What do you think?

I did have a nice day, as far as my W and me (work was a typical Monday).

What intrigues me most is you've said a couple of times that you feel the way I do, that you could have written the same thing. I've felt that way about stuff you've written. Someone else feels like I do and is facing the same issues. Maybe we can crack this nut. At least I know I'm not weird in feeling the way I do, and wanting more than just my W coming back.

Time, patience, have always been good tools in DB. They are hard to use though. I get impatient. Maybe the lesson is in having patience and the answers won't come until I really understand how to let go, relax, and wait.

Thanks for the great responses. I hope you had a great day and will have a great evening.

[Aud31]

Yep, I've read Mars/Venus...it's been awhile, might not hurt to dust it off and refresh some ideas. In all my spare time.

OW and significant other...yes, seems good. H says they're married, but their myspace pages say different. (I know, I know...bad place, but it's the max of snooping I'm doing now, and I feel the need to make sure she's off the radar every once in awhile.) I still don't like the whole 'friendly' thing they've all got going on. But, it's not anything I have control over, so I try to not let it bother me.

I feel the same way as you about counseling...but again, his feelings are beyond my control.

About the needy/approach thing, this is a toughie, but it seems that whatever you have been trying is a cheeseless tunnel. Might be a good area to experiment with some 180s. Sometimes it takes a while to find a 'win-win' scenario with the 180 concept, but I believe it's possible. Just takes a lot of thought.

I admire you for being willing to look at the hard stuff instead of just stuffing it and taking the 'easy' road. I think I tend to think just as you said:

Time, patience, have always been good tools in DB. They are hard to use though. I get impatient. Maybe the lesson is in having patience and the answers won't come until I really understand how to let go, relax, and wait.

It is so easy to get impatient. But so far, this method seems to be paying off. Slow, steady, with some fine tuning here and there.

[LoginName]

Aud,
Have you read any, many, of the books on recovering from infidelity? I've read parts of at least 3, and I've received some emailed newsletters. Some say share everything, be totally honest and transparent. Others seem to say that might not be important.

I know for me, I prefer to trust and not delve into a daily watch of my W. I found a phone # I didn't recognize on my W's phone, with an area code from where the OM lives. So far, I've decided not to ask about it. I don't think it would help. If I ask, she could be defensive. It could be nothing. If it is him, it could be any number of things. Maybe she made a last goodbye. Whatever. Obviously, I think about it, but I don't think I believe 100% honesty, knowing everything she is doing, is good.

Also, the books seem to be split on how much you need to know about the A. I think it depends on the person, and the time. I'm willing to listen if my W wants to tell me, but I don't ask. Maybe I will someday.

Trust isn't as hard for me as forgiveness. I can make a blind leap of faith and trust my W, because what does it matter. She either is or isn't in an A. I can't control it. She can always fool me - it's not hard.

I too have checked my W's classmates page. That's where he found her. She has changed her password. But I haven't asked her about it. Obviously,I think about this sometimes too.

But, now I sound paranoid or cockholded. I don't think I'm either. I'm making choices for me. I may not know everything, but my eyes are open, I know what I'm getting into and I'm making choices.

I keep thinking of going back to our MC, as an IC. I think I will before too long.

doing a 180 is a great idea! I think I was getting stuck in a rut (cheeseless tunnel). Maybe I lack the imagination to think of a 180, but I'll try. Also,I'm not really sure what I was doing in the first place. Was I speaking my mind and showing my feelings and needs too much, or not enough? The way it felt to me might be totally different than what my wife preceived it as. Great stuff to think about. Sometimes I think my W gives me clues too. And boy, am I straining my listening muscles trying to pick up on everything, trying not to miss the communications that I think I missed in the past.

is this still sounding similar to your sitch? What are you trying? Are you doing any 180s?

Thanks for writing and sharing.

[LoginName]

today, riding my motorcycle home from work, I thought of how she had left me, and the kids. Riding a motorcylce in rush hour trafic is not a good time to be thinking those kinds of things. I tried to put it out of my head. I made it home safely, but the thought kept poking through. I got my son fed, had some fun with him, but the thought keeps popping up.

I need to write it out, to get it out of my system.

Forgivness. Is that what I haven't done yet, even though I thought I had?

She left. I'd started a new job, she left me and the kids. I could have lost my job. I was so lucky to have a job were I could work flexible hours so I could see my kids off to school and be there when they got home. What if I hadn't been so lucky? She didn't know that I would be able to arrange it the way I did. What if the job and the kids wouldn't have worked out? What if I would have lost my job? Would she have come home to take care of the kids? We could have lost everything. My kids have so much, and have so much opportunity. All of that could have been lost, and for what?

Did I forgive her, or was I so glad to have a second chance that I purposfully turned a blind eye to what happened?

Am I angry and do I need to process that anger before I can really move on?

How could she have done it? I really don't get it. How?

OK, now, trying to give both sides, as much as I can....
1) she must have been really miserable with me to do what she did. It couldn't have been just lust, could it? (if she were so miserable that she could leave her kids, how was she able to come back?)
2) she has said that she could not have left if she didn't trust that I would take care of the kids. That is a vote of confidence and even a sign of love (but can I trust her now?).
3) We were lucky, those terrible things didn't happen. Maybe I should move on and not think about it.

I can understand not being happy (I wasn't happy either), I can understand having an affair (I, shamefully, had one too), I can't understand risking ruining your kids (I was tempted to leave, and I didnt'. I ended the affair and, shamefully, resigned myself to my unhappy marriage for my kids sake, and for my W's sake as well).

I don't know. My W and I are different people. She did what she did. She can't change it now. Can she make amends? Should she? How could she? Is there anything she could do to make it up to me and to the kids?

The only thing she can do is live right now. The only way she can make up for what she did is to be authentic, truthful, trustworthy, and her own person, from now on. No more games, keeping feelings inside, doing what she thinks she should do for duty's sake until she can't take it anymore and explodes.

And the only thing I can do is work on forgiving her, and maybe myself as well.

[Aud31]

Hey there...those are some heavy thoughts and questions. ((hugs))

It's late, and though I logged on to answer your previous post, my brain is a little too fried to get too deep into this, so take this all with a grain of salt, because it's my first reaction to your post.

I still cycle through some anger/resentment/disbelief at H's betrayal (though it's becoming much less frequent and intense with time). I think it's normal and part of the healing process (at least for me ). I think I'd still feel these things regardless of ANY of H's current actions. This process is mine to deal with--nothing he does or says can change that.

In my book, forgiveness is a choice and a continual process. Don't go tripping yourself with the thought that maybe you haven't forgiven when you thought you already had--you get to make the choice every time the emotions blind side you.

What does processing anger mean to you?

[LoginName]

Aud,
I just needed to vent that anger. I don't think I've allowed myself to process it completely yet. I'm getting there, as I tried to show at the end of the post. It is tricky, especially since I have always had a problem with anger - showing it that is.

Thanks for the wise words. Forgiveness is a continual process.

I don't really know what processing the anger means. Do I need to show my W my anger? Do I need her to see it? (she has been so afraid of my, or anyone's anger, even though I am so incredibly un-angry and mild). Do I need to throw a fit? Do I need to talk to the IC? Maybe some kind of ancient ritual involving fire, pain, dancing, and maybe the blood of small furry animals?

I'm not an angry person and it comes and goes quickly. Feeling that my kids could have suffered, much more than they did, because of her actions, angers me more than what she did to me. And, it's just hard to understand.

Anyway, Passionate Marriage is really speaking to me in ways the other books didn't. DB was and is good.It's very practical and quick acting. Passionate Marriage is more "why" and more long term, in my view. Although the book is mainly about sex, it's really about life, and relationshiops. One thing he say is that marriage is supposed to be hard. We shouldn't expect to "get it" and then never have serious issues. Marriage is one of the best places for us to grow as people, and growing hurts, often. And it can lead to real intimacy and passion - which is what I'm aiming for.

Based on what I've read from you, in posts to me, and to others, and on your own sitch, I think you get it. I think you have or are growing. I hope your H grows with you.

In the worst of my sitch, I came across the idea of embrassing your pain, owning it. Also, as the healing has started, I felt my pain switch from an evil, nasty pain to a healthy healing pain. I think with work the pain of growth and finding intimacy and passion can be that kind of clean, healthy pain. And the rewards and joys are worth it.

You still gowing to respond to my previous post?

[Aud31]

Yikes! Sorry it's been a few days...the week's gotten away from me! Okay, so here goes:

Have you read any, many, of the books on recovering from infidelity?

I have read SO MUCH through this whole thing. The books that demand complete transparency, I understand and agree with, but they make me cringe, because I don't have that. For me, I can't say that I fully trust my H, but I'm still watching actions, and just leaving it where it is seems to be working for us right now. Will that blow up in my face someday? Sigh. Maybe. But I can't see how a power struggle now will be productive. Wish I were more clear on that one.

the books seem to be split on how much you need to know about the A. I think it depends on the person, and the time. I'm willing to listen if my W wants to tell me, but I don't ask.

I think this is a personal decision as well. I used to ask TONS of questions, and H answered most of them. But even then, I can't trust that he was fully honest, so I'm back to just taking everything a day at a time. Sometimes I want to ask something, but the voice inside me tells me that more than likely I don't want to know, and then again, how can I be sure he's telling the truth? So I try to not go there. By the same token, every once in awhile a comment will just slip out...about H, OW, etc. I always feel bad afterwards, because I don't want him to think I'm holding any of this over his head, or that it is a light matter.

But, now I sound paranoid or cockholded. I don't think I'm either. I'm making choices for me. I may not know everything, but my eyes are open, I know what I'm getting into and I'm making choices.

Could have written this myself. What makes it okay for me is that I'm not making choices out of fear, I'm doing what I want to do. So if it does go bad, I can't say it's all his fault. (I think that scares me more than being 'the fool'.) But I think in the end, I'd rather live an imperfect connected life than walk around with an invisible wall to protect me from outside attack--I think the opportunities for loving relationships (with everyone) outweigh the risk of betrayal.

doing a 180 is a great idea!

Any ideas where you want to start? I'm sure a good C can help you map out what you'd like to do. I probably need to do this too, but I've got a lot on my plate right now with my little family. I'm not currently working on any 180s...just enjoying H's mini 180 of coming home most nights and being more available to me. I'm so easy to knock off track...