Swimmer.... insightful as always.

You bring out some fabulous points. One of which is the commeraderie in advsersity. I have become close at different times to individuals and groups while in adversity. I worked for a company that treated its staff poorly and we individual staff members became very close and brotherly.

Also, in the "Recovery" community of which I am a part.... we get very close when any or all of us are in crisis. After our lives level out.... we are less close and frankly, even engage in more common human relational dynamics like gossip, envy, positioning, and other manifiestations of selfishness.

I suppose when the bullets are flying (whether literally or figuratively), there is little time to be petty, selfish, jealous, etc. We need our community and a certain unification of effort in our struggle in order to mutually survive. Once basic survival is achieved.... then I suppose we move on to other things like personal gain.

We, the human race, are a pretty shallow bunch are we not? As you mention, the Muslims you have experienced may very well be much the same in their organizational behaviour.

Again I re-state my fondness and respect for the 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous. They are hard-won lessons on how a group of people can interract together and minimize the "wolf effect". We do this by keeping our purpose single and simple.

It is far from perfect. Lots of wolves sneak in. But it has worked successfully since 1939 such that it has spread the fellowships of AA, NA, Alanon, NarAnon, Alateen, OverEaters Anonymous, and many, many other fellowships around the world in abundance. Run only by the people it serves for the people it serves.

So for now I am conent and refreshed with this fellowship the way it is.

We could probably share a million stories mutually about people infriltrating church groups for financial gain, relationships, etc, etc. We do see that in my fellowship as well. Fortunately, the consequence of error is much higher in the recovery community (relapse = death.... in many cases) so we do tend to be protective of such things.

Thanks again for contributing to the thread.

Ciao.

Chazz