God, Booze, Drugs, Pain & Divorce

[Bworl]

This has become a great discussion. Thanks for starting it.

I too experienced that "the Church" was ill-equipped to deal with real problems of real people.

When my ex and I began to have some problems years before she ever wigged out and left, the congregation that we had been part of for nearly 7 years pretty much bailed on us completely. During those 7 years we had led the youth group, I had taught adult sunday school, led worship, led a weekly small group, and been elected a deacon. They were wonderful people and we had grown enormously while in that body. But boy, when REAL trouble began, the body could NOT handle it.

The Pastor of the church shared our struggles with some other members of the church (breaching our confidentiality) and soon everyone knew. Wasn't long before we realized that no one was really comfortable with us around anymore.

That little experience kept me out of church for nearly 10 years.

When the ex embarked on her World Tour (as in, the world revolves around me and my happiness tour), it was only a return to my faith that kept me from making some hugely harmful decisions.

The faith was different this time however. It was personal, and honest, and real. Though protestant since my salvation, I began attending morning mass at a catholic church in town. My motivation was not wanting to be roped into service, as many protestant churches do. Mass was a balm for my wounded soul. There I could focus on my God, cry out to him, and try to hear whatever it might be that He wanted to say to me.

I would often follow these 7:30 am masses up with going to a local park with my Bible so that I could walk and talk out loud to God. So much of the weight in my soul was soothed and released during these private moments. These were the things that moved me back to my God, and I will cherish them forever.

There is much wrong with the established church today. Most of it centered around being able to be REAL to the people that gather there. I don't believe God ever called us to gathering together just to say that we did. I think He expected a spirituality to be present that was less about ME and more about HIM. So little of that today.

And I think often of the new church in Acts and how that really should be the model for what a "church" per se is supposed to be like. It's not a weekly event. It's a community of people, who have everything in common, and who do for each other whenever there is need. Faith becomes real there. The word of God becomes real there.

In that environment, real problems from real life are EXPECTED and are handled. Not by telling the one with the problem, "Oh just pray to God and He will take care of it." They are handled by people reaching out and meeting each others needs. God is in the center of that place I believe, and that is what I desperately want for me and my boys.


Great discussion.


Blessings,

Bill

[No_More_Dodo]

Dodo... your point about both giving it 100% for prolonged period to try to save it before finally packing it in really rings loudly in my heart.

So many people, including my ex's parents, advised us of this. Including but not limited to also people we knew who had survived affairs in their marriages.

My ex's family even offered to pay to send us to Gary Smalley's "Marriage Intensive" at his counselling centre in Missouri. A majorly intense program for couples in dire distress. My ex would have no part of it.

Even Dr. Phil on his web site and in his book, "Relationship Rescue" advises strongly that before you pack it in you sould read every book, take every course, leave no stone unturned. Basically you need to prove to yourselves beyond the shadow of a doubt that it will not work. And even so, if you cannot leave the R without bitterness or resentment, then you still have unfinished business. Powerful advice. FEw have the courage to follow that through.

I am sure Michelle W-D would concur. It is just too doggone easy to walk away under the entitlement exception.

I know mine did. She was entitled to happiness and me and our marriage were in her mind the reasons she was not. It is now up to her to find happiness which it does not appear that she has yet. But whatever.... that is her journey.

Love the lively dialogue.

Chaz

Chaz,

For me, I wanted to be 100% CERTAIN I had tried everything to save my M........ I NEVER wanted to look back and regret anything...

That is very interesting you mention Relationship Rescue.... When the sh!t all started, I bought exW and I copies of the book..... She never read it... I also wanted her to go to one of those "Marriage Intensives"... Of course, she wanted nothing to do with it.... Her loss....

MAN, do I know about exs finding "happiness".... My Dodo exW said the following:

It is MY turn to be happy!!!!!!!!!!

I was just standing there thinking, WTF!?! When is MY turn to be happy!?!

I honestly think my exW will regret her actions some day as well.... She will at least regret not giving things a chance..... Oh, well, I gave it my all and gave her numerous chances...... She has another 40 or so years to think about her actions......

Take Care,

NMD

[Reincarnated]

NMD--I could have written your post.

Bill-I agree about trying to find a gathering of people, a community, who won't bail, who have commonalities, and who are there for each other, in good times and in bad. I feel fortunate to have recently found a place like that. It just happens to be a church, a denomination which I did NOT grow up with. It is supplimental to my own growth, my own journey. But it helps to know that there are people there who care.

As a young adult, I was very turned off by the constant demand to tithe, and being chastized if the amount you put in was not "worthy of the Church." All while they were defending themselves from heinous-acts lawsuits.

This is not the atmosphere where I am, at all. And I am glad for it. Honestly, I don't now if I would have found my way back to my spirituality if the crisis hadn't happened in my marriage.

[cat03]

"amount of faith" = "likelyhood of desired result "

there are so many things we will just not understand, all the tragedies you mentioned to good people. Job's friends never did understand why all that bad stuff happened to him, at one point they even told him it was his fault.
My point is, as almosthopeful says, we just don't know the story behind each life: so a believer Ds, chances are he/she didnt' want the D, the other spouse did. Here again is free will at work.
God has 3 answers, yes, no, and wait. I could have faith as big as a mountain, but God in his infinite wisdom might decide to say no to some of my requests, because he knows better.

Have I prayed like crazy for the healing of my M? yes, did it happen? no, did my faith on God waivered or did i doubt him? no, I've had my bad moments, but i believe my future is bright, H or no H in my life.

I have found tremendous joy and blessing. I have found the peace of God that passes all understanding.

and this is what really counts

[Chazz]

Braveheart... great to cross paths again. Been a while eh?

Thank you very much for your addition to the thread. So many things you posted I connect with.

First point you made.... we often refer to the "yets"... meaning in reference to the notion that anyone would 'never do drug or drink, etc'. .... to which we in 12-step encourage people to finish the sentance with the word "yet". Why? Because so many of us ended up doing things we never imagined!

My drug of choice was a street drug. I was 37 when I finally picked it up. I was essentially a yuppie with 3 kids, beautiful home, professional employment, nice car, etc. I t was highly unlikely that I would ever have got hooked to somehting like that. We just do not know where pain will take us. Thanks for emphasizing this matter.

Also... the notion of other addictions like food, shopping, entertainment, sleep..... Man... I did 'em all. I have enough clothes for a small country. This was from my post-substance era. When I was in treatment a few years ago, I worked out daily and came out of the program completely buff. Which actually was part of my downfall. I had not grown in recovery by working out. In fact, it gave me another avenue to manifest my unhealthiness. Frankly, I am glad that failed too.

Thanks again for your contributions.

Chaz

[Chazz]

Almost....

I have observed the same thing.... people who do not believe exactly the way the organized church seems to want us to believe.... or difine God the way they want.... yet we see people who have a concept of God as the understand him and live incredibly loving, authentic and giving lives... we see them blessed.

I beleive there are universal principles that God has set in motion and whether or not we give God specific recognition for them.... they still work.

With all of that said, my conclusions keep steering me to recognize God as Jehovah as the Bible describes him. And although I can't quite get in full agreement with the outlooks and standpoints of many Christians and churches, I can't see that Jesus was not who he claimed he was.

His teachings are amazingly valid in my life. The Bible is amazingly true. It is funny it took a journey away from "God's People" (as so many call themselves) to come to believe this on the level I feel I do.

Thanks for the lively dialogue.

Chaz

[Chazz]

So Bworl.... did you borrow my life while I wasnt looking?

Wow... what amazing parallels. Thanks for your reply. Very meaningful.

Specific thoughts...

But boy, when REAL trouble began, the body could NOT handle it.

Ditto in my sitch. Which leaves the big question in my mind... Why? I do not want to be critical of the individuals of my church experience because they are wonderful people. Somehow though... the sitution they are involved in has becomne irrelevant to the situations in my life.

Could it perhaps be because there are other underlying agenda of the organized church other than true care for the believer and true sharing of the "good news". Could it be that selfish agenda (which any of us can be side-tracked by) have woven through our church efforts and congregational behaviours? Such as creating conformity of behaviour and appearances rather than truly sharing the gospel?

Or perhaps feeding the machine of the church organization (building, reputation, salaries, positions, programs, etc, etc) has actually become paramount such that a person in genuine pain cannot find help?

If that is the case... .this has drifted far from the Jesus I read about in the Bible. Jesus was a very practical man. He dealt with many people one-on-one exactly where they were at. He intermingled with people in their situations of sin, pain, and calamity and did something practical about it. Does that discribe our church experiences?

The Pastor of the church shared our struggles with some other members of the church (breaching our confidentiality) and soon everyone knew. Wasn't long before we realized that no one was really comfortable with us around anymore.

Oh man.... have I experienced this one. A pastor telling someone's story of life-destroying calamity from the pulpit and thinking it was OK by simply leaving their name out.

Or after I get back from treatment.... which I was naive enough at the time to believe was confidential... I had members of a particular congregation come up to me and openly discuss my problem with substance abuse. And of course they only found out about it because someone phoned the organization so they could "pray for me". Which in my experience is again thinly veiled weak human behaviour disguised as "ministry". Not meaning prayer is weak human behaviour, but more so that the tendancey to spread the gosip on the guise of sharing the need for prayer.

The lawyer I mentioned in one of my other posts who left his pastoral position.... one of his key issues was the total lack of true confidentiality by others in his corporate church experience versus confidentiality as a Lawyer or Doctor may know it.

Anyway... I do not mean to beat up on the church so I will leave my reply at that for the time being.

These are my experiences and I suppose some of my hurt and disagreement with certain behaviours is coming through in my posting. So I will go back to my orginal message that I believe I was trying to make....

I have found TREMENDOUS, MEANINGFUL, RELEVANT healing on these message boards and other venues that encourage rigorous honesty and a deep, deep examination of self. And of course a method to then deal with what you find. I am glad to find it and grateful to live in the blessings it has provided.

I believe these blessings are available to all who are willing to do what it takes.

Thanks again for your great post.

Chaz



My ref

[Chazz]

Dodo, Brother.... ya ditton on feeling confident I tried everything. Now, years later, there is much comfort knowing that I did indeed try everything... including the 180 thing.

I gave my ex (STBX at the time) a copy of Dr. Phil's web page where he talks about earning your way out and trying everything and turning every stone. She handed me back a brochure on collaborative divorce and said that she would read my information if I would read hers. It was very hurtful.

But whatever. I wish I could tell more newcomers to circle the wagons early so they arent hurt and disappointed. 180s can happen and DBing works, I just question how often.

I feel absolutely certain there was no changing my ex's mind.

So onward and upward. Life is unfolding amazingly well and can use the marriage saving stuff in a more pre-emptive way in my new sitch.

Thanks for the lively dialogues.

Chaz

[Kimmie Lee]

I too question how often DB works. I think it actually works in very few cases.

[No_hill_for_a_Swimmer]

Hi Kimmie
I think it's like sinkin a hockey puck. How many goals / attempts but the average is better than the usual methods. I believe the marketing is a bit oversold but that's marketing and you walk away either win or loose a lot richer in wisdom. The alternative is to walk away with nothing.

Chazz.
Most churches espouse to lower your defenses or boundries to eachother in your church family but are less successful in keeping away the wolves or beating down what the bible calls the old man. I've seen what you speak of and one of the Mega Churchs who's pastor wrote "Purpose filled Life" had many parisioners bilked out of their savings from wolves in their midst. (The pastor had no involvement here)

I do not go since I would find myself asking them why would I go along with all the associated trash and open up myself up. Every time and I mean Every time I entered in any business relationship with someone who espouses publicly their faith I got taken to the cleaners. I now realize doing that is akin to eating a bowl of stupid in the morning. Thus in that culture my responses taking wolves behind the woodpile and discussing their misdeeds in a proper military manner is not looked favoribly upon by the flock so I'll spend my time in other ways. My last time was listening to some deacon espouse the healthy wealthy christian life syndrome by praying for a car with a nonstandard engine and color scheme and god gave it to him I have to leave in order not to yell out the cross between a Bulldog and Shitzu. I guess down here that is standard. It is tough for any flock to be diciplined when the the goal not physical and the rewards are after you pass on.

In war a squad of servicemembers open up to eachother but don't cross boundries. They end up knowing more than the spouses however if one cross boundries with someone whom they may need to save their lives is a true deterent to misdeeds. However back in the states when the immediate threat is removed I've seen former warbuddies do eachother like you report in your former church.

I noticed that birds of a feather worship together. It is often a culture thing on doctrine and often a smaller version of how that culture conducts itself in the secular world. No one is immune. From what I saw in the Middle East and discussions the Muslims have similar complaints.