Ya Dodo.... I can relate to that perspective. Perhaps not as clearly defined as your experience but I do see more tolerance for the WAW than the WAH. Perhaps given the expectation for a many to be the "Spiritual Head of the House" it is more an abdication of responsibility in this context. In addition, I can't help but believe that some women can portray themselves as the hapless victims of their "opressive men" (sorry ladies... I am not painting all with same brush... just giving a narrow viewpoint of some I have experienced).
I think some women have an easier time rationalizing themselves and being viewed as vicitms. I am probably ruffling some feathers by stating so. I am speaking largely from my ex's perspective too. She rationalized this way. "I got married too young. He is never around. He changed since we first got married. etc, etc." While none of these are necessarily incorrect, they do not represent a balanced perspective.
Again.... sorry ladies if this is offensive.
I simply agree that there appears to be more empathy and less judgement for a woman walking away from a "Christian" marriage than a man.... in my experience anyway.
Chaz,
Very true..... I KNOW that is the card my exWAW played..... It is funny how everything is fine..... Then, in a moment, they have been unhappy for years and have a myriad of complaints.... Yet, no one is sane enough to ask, "Did you ever talk to him about your feelings? Did you ever ask him to go to counseling? Why did you just leave?" They just accept what they say as truth.... No thought, no logic......
When it comes down to it..... When you ARE a Christian, give me scriptural reasons for divorcing..... If they are NOT in the Bible, they are just excuses NOT reasons.... As you well know, excuses are like a$$holes.... Everyone has one and they all stink.....
I guess from a more Liberal view, I could potentially see a "Christian" couple divorcing after really trying, going to counseling and giving 100% to making it work for years..... There may be some cases where it will not work..... HOWEVER, the real catch here is BOTH parties must be giving it their all.... NOT looking around.... NOT dating...... REALLY working on the M.... This is certainly NOT the case with WASs.......
Take Care,
NMD
Last edited by No_More_Dodo; 05/09/0803:48 PM.
"Chains do not hold a marriage together. It is threads, hundreds of tiny threads which sew people together through the years. That is what makes a marriage last --more than passion or even sex!" - Simone Signoret
A couple of things I feel compelled to share with you. After separation from the stbx, I gave in to depression (I was diagnosed with bi-polar disorder during marriage counseling) and enveloped myself in a booze and drug induced coma. While wallowing around in the darkness of my despair [read: self pity] I found the Lord.
I knew he was always there, I just didn’t take heed. I wanted things my way; not God’s way. My simple presence on these boards tells you how my way worked out for me. I have now found that God is bigger than this pain and that I can give it all up to him if I only ask. I believe, slip, falter, doubt, and believe again. I admit that sometimes I get angry at God for what I am going through. How could he have let this happen? If this is what is best why did he let me get married in the first place? The answer, of course, is that I have free will. I wanted things my way. I now have to lie in my own bed.
Second thing. If there is a night that I haven’t drank since separation back in January, I don’t remember it. I don’t always get hammered, but I almost always have something. My 3 significant backslides during Dbing were always preceded by copious amounts of alcohol. Drugs, check. Pot is always available and blow is only a matter of hanging out with certain people. I think you are familiar with that particular crowd. I’m not sure why I’m telling you this. I started reading up on your sitch after reading your post to Germ’s thread. I can see you have navigated some of these particular waters. The funny thing is, I know exactly how slippery the slope is, I just don’t care. Anything to dull the pain. Anything to dull the damn pain.
I just came here from Newbies; my thread here is titled And so it begins… if you would like to stop by.
Me: 35 WAW: 28 Bomb: 1/13/08 S: 1/14/08 D filed: 2/24/08 D final on 7/07/08
Do your damndest in an ostentatious manner all the time. -George S. Patton
My Sitch http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1405138&page=0&fpart=1
If the Word of God was as literal in application as (we) Penetcostals profess.... there would, for example, be far less death due to illness and certainly less divorce. We could just stand by faith and "whatsoever we ask will be given to us".
Yes, very true, the resources are there, the scenario you mention could very well be happening, the problem is, people simply don't believe so God can't bless them as He wants to bless us. Then again, somethings happen which we have no idea why, (D, death) and one day God will show us why some thing were allowed to happen or how God took a bad sitch and turn it into a much better one. I believe God gave me all I need, not all I asked because perhaps I asked for something that wouldnt' be good for me. He's given me so much, if stbx decided to walk away and not treat his mental illness and will file for D, that was not God's doing, that was stbx's free will at work. God has bring me out winning out of all this mess, despite and maybe because all that has happened to me I have a closer R with God. A christian life is a constant journey, we constantly grow in Christ, not even the apostles thought they had achieved perfection.
Be not afraid...I will repay you for the years the locusts have eaten Joel2
30something 2kids survivor of S, MLC, A, D I have peace in my heart, at last.
Yet he ovserved that there were over 46 AA meetings in that same town every week. If you added NA and Alanon, it would be closer to 60. Yet there were no salaries, titles, buildings, budgets, positions or even leaders. It was run by the people for the people it served... not unlike the early church?
So basically he quit and went back to practicing law which is where he came from in the first place. He wrote a book called "The Church Corporation" I do not believe it has been released yet but keep your eye out for it.
Oh that story is sad, in terms of the loss to the church. I'll look for the book, though, it sounds interesting.
Your thread is getting some good talk, it's refreshing.
Dodo... your point about both giving it 100% for prolonged period to try to save it before finally packing it in really rings loudly in my heart.
So many people, including my ex's parents, advised us of this. Including but not limited to also people we knew who had survived affairs in their marriages.
My ex's family even offered to pay to send us to Gary Smalley's "Marriage Intensive" at his counselling centre in Missouri. A majorly intense program for couples in dire distress. My ex would have no part of it.
Even Dr. Phil on his web site and in his book, "Relationship Rescue" advises strongly that before you pack it in you sould read every book, take every course, leave no stone unturned. Basically you need to prove to yourselves beyond the shadow of a doubt that it will not work. And even so, if you cannot leave the R without bitterness or resentment, then you still have unfinished business. Powerful advice. FEw have the courage to follow that through.
I am sure Michelle W-D would concur. It is just too doggone easy to walk away under the entitlement exception.
I know mine did. She was entitled to happiness and me and our marriage were in her mind the reasons she was not. It is now up to her to find happiness which it does not appear that she has yet. But whatever.... that is her journey.
One Light.... man you sound like you're at where I was at a few years ago. I too just didnt care. I just wanted reprieve. The fact that it was chemical was not a big deal to me.
Dont worry.... I wont preach at you. You, no doubt, have some awareness of the dangers and downfalls of drugs and booze. To me, that reads between the lines of your post. I get the sense that you would probably rather not be relying on them. I may be wrong.
In my experience, I have not seen that it is likely that a person will cease using or drinking until the pain of continuing exceeds the pain of ceasing. It is that simple. Until there is an inward WILLINGNESS, drugs and booze will always have a green light in a person's world.
Brother.... I believe you would find some interesting insights and fellowship in the rooms of some AA or NA meetings. There is no requirement to stop using or drinking to attend. And the only requirement to actually be a member is a desire to stop. What I found in the rooms of AA and NA was an opportunity to stop and find a way to deal with my grief, depression, anxiety, and misery. As you read in my post on germ's thread. I gotta tell you.... the freedom is awesome.
My ex can scarcely hurt me anymore. Even though she does the same things that once used to flatten me or send me into an emotional tailspin or drinking or using.
It is my experience that God, more often than not, delivers us THROUGH the challenges of life.... rather than delivering us FROM the challenges. By doing so, we gain the ability to have courage under fire. We become veterans of lifes battle such that when the bullets begin flying in another life issue, we dont panic or hide. We face the battle and even some times lead the charge to defeat the battle. We dont just do this for ourselves, we can do it for/with others. It has been revealed to me that Gods purpose for me is so far beyond just making my life better and more comfortable. It is for others too.
That is perhaps what the purpose of positng on these boards is. Giving back. Carrying the message of recovery from life circumstances... in this case our common circumstance is the pain of divorce. And for you and me it is drugs and booze.
By having gone through (and still going) what I went through, it has given me the strength to pass along what has so freely been given to me. And many people gave and gave and gave... and continue to give.
I am over 2 years clean and sober.... and more importantly... exctatically happy and free from anxiety and depression. It is amazing. If you are interested in these things, am happy to continue to share with you... and I would suggest trying a meeting. takes way mroe courage than drinking or drugging.... but the rewards are so much bigger. Infinitely. And as you are likely aware, I know of what I speak.
people simply don't believe so God can't bless them as He wants to bless us.
I am not able to see this statement the same way. I was spriitually raised to believe in a linear way. The more you believe, the more you are blessed. Yet I did not see that work out in practice. One of the deepest believers I know died tragically of heart failure and suffered with diabetes his entire life. Another has been praying and believing for his daughter who is now in her 50s and clearly has a mental/emotional illness. I could go on and on and on. Including people who were in my obersvation completely believing for their marriages. And the marriages never came back.
I have not been able to see that the 1 to 1 relationship of "amount of faith" = "likelyhood of desired result " works. This may sound grossly pessimistic. Yet the results are just not there.
Furthermore, in my experience it puts a whole performance-based nature on our relationship with God.... thats how it feels to me anyway.
If God were this linear, why do even some of the biggest faith preachers suffer advsersity such as divorce, financial loss, or premature death. One of the biggest names in the faith movement has a divorced daughter.
I am not trying to corner your theology. I am simply stating that I at one point tried to believe this way and all it got me was a lot of unmet expectations and feelings of unworthiness and failure. I deeply believe that this is not what God wants for us.
I am not saying anyone is right or wrong. I am just saying I dont see it. Yet in what I have found to work, I have found tremendous joy and blessing. I have found the peace of God that passes all understanding.
Oh that story is sad, in terms of the loss to the church.
I actually think it is a good thing. This Pastor went on to minister in the way that perhaps God called him. The organized corporate church was not his specific area of ministry... perhaps.
I believe we will see God show up and fellowship show up in a lot of atypical ways. As per my original post.... I really do not see that the church of today is poised to meet or even meaningfully address or accept some of the bitter realities of current age.
Divorce is on the rise and the church is right in line. Drugs, booze, eating disorders, sexual stuff, the list goes on and on.
My faith is in God. Not the organized church. He will do what he wishes through whom he wishes. Hey.... Jesus was not a part of the establishment of his day. He was a cultural revolutionary. He was God's new way. Maybe he will find a new way for his people to fellowship and serve him. Who knows. I am sure we will soon find out.
Excellent discussion going on here, so I had to jump in! Chazz, its amazing where you started and where you are now! I really admire you for having the courage to defeat your demons the way that you have. Some people might look at Chazz and say, "well no matter what happens I wouldn't drink or do drugs" I say that you don't know what the hell you might do given the right type of circumstances. I wat to also point out that there are many other types of addictive behaviors. Overeating, smoking, watching t.v., excessive shopping, sleeping too much. All of these and more can become excessive behaviors all doing one thing, helping the person cope with a tramatic event in thier life. I can tell you that I was seriously depressed when this first went down, I didn't want to do anything, didn't want to go anywhere, felt totally overwhelmed, abandoned,you name it. How did I deal with this you might ask, by eating and drinking. I drank and ate WAY TOO MUCH! I didn't become dependant on drinking, but lets just say, I don't want to get that close to it again! I also ate like a pig, knowing in my mind it was bad for me, but I did it anyway. I have always prided myself in being in excellent physical condition, I abandoned my weight traning during this time, I signed up for karate, and although I enjoyed it, my heart really wasn't there. I woke up one morning around Christmas time, looked at myself in the mirror and faced the truth about myself. I was a fat pathetic slob! That was a HARD FACT to face! I told myself it stops today! I started dieting hard, exercising hard, and living right. As a result I am in better physical shape than I have been since I was in college. In saying all of this, Chazz is absolutely correct in saying that an individual has got to WANT TO DO BETTER before they will. I think this is true for any situation. People who leave a marriage most of the time simply do not want to try to make things better, for whatever reason. Most of the time its due to the involvement of another person. People have it in thier minds that it will be better with someone else. Is it? Well statistics will show that its not so. 60% or more of all second marriages fail, 97% or more of affair based relationships fail. These numbers are very real IMO, as you have the WAS who doesn't change themselves, even in entering a new R and the LBS many time has too many scars and wounds to really develop a strong R. As Dr. Phill said, too much unfinished business. I have been D for over a year and S for over 2. I have not entered a new R, not because I am waiting on my X to come back, that chapter has closed forever in my life, way too much hurt and mean things said and done for me to ever get past, but I am not ready to put my all into a new R. Until I am, I will not commit, its not fair to the other person. I do hope that others on here will heed this advice, as I feel you will complicate matters in your life if you have not totally healed before starting a new R. Sorry for the long post!
people simply don't believe so God can't bless them as He wants to bless us.
I am not able to see this statement the same way.
Ooh, ooh, ooh. I've got to reframe this a bit too...
I think people who don't believe in God don't RECOGNIZE their blessings. I believe wholeheartedly that what you guys call God blesses us, and believes in us, whether or not we believe in her/him. For me, to believe otherwise makes God sound like a Western Capitalist...you give me something and I'll give you something equal in exchange! My HIghwer Power gives to us regardless of our shortsighted and frequent lapses of belief.
I also know a lot of people who say they don't believe, but who ACT like true, loving, authentic believers. \Aamazingly their lives appear to be full of blessings.
