The aspect which really blew me away was the "Christian" double standard.
Wife leaves Husband = Ok
Husband leaves Wife - NOT Ok
I talked to several Christians about it... It is PERVASIVE.... I even had a pastor say, "That has happened to a lot of guys......" I was NOT asking the pastor to condemn her to Hell or anything ... But...... That response is way TOO accepting...I would have said.... "When you get married, you take a vow before God and man. It is too bad she did not live up to her obligation...."
Remember, if a guy does it, they want to hang him by his testicles.... He is a dog.... If a woman does it, she is "unhappy"............. The sad part is my OWN sister, who is a professor at a Christian college, DEFENDED her this way!
NMD
Last edited by No_More_Dodo; 05/08/0808:19 PM.
"Chains do not hold a marriage together. It is threads, hundreds of tiny threads which sew people together through the years. That is what makes a marriage last --more than passion or even sex!" - Simone Signoret
I guess I was venting there a bit..... The past is the past... I would not go back for anything.... EXCEPT.... If I could marry my new wife at 22 years old..... Wishful thinking....
It is really troubling to see Christians accepting of any old thing that comes down the pipe... Again, we can compare one's actions to Biblical truth without condemning the person.... But, if Christians accept anything..... What is the difference between Christians and the World?
Take Care,
NMD
"Chains do not hold a marriage together. It is threads, hundreds of tiny threads which sew people together through the years. That is what makes a marriage last --more than passion or even sex!" - Simone Signoret
Great thread, so interesting to see how your thoughts are being received. My response to 12 step programs is very similar to yours, and similarly positive.
IN a very crude way, I actually think of the DB "program" and 12 step programs as having much in common. Both encourage total focus on SELF, as opposed to criticizing and complaining about the OTHER. And both have an action orientation, and encourage acting differently than we used to act. Simple and amazing how that all works!
About the churches. I subscribe to the view that churches are spiritual organizations BUT they are also economic and social insitutions. They benefit by controlling resources and acquiring status. I think evaluating them as economic institutions gives a pretty good idea as to why they so vigorously compete for being the "only one" with the "right answer".
It is truly sad that some churches are downright harmful in their counseling with regard to divorce and recovery. But it may be worse that they disdain other approaches, outside the church, that may actually help relieve suffering. WWJD, indeed!
I have a book you and fig might like....The Spirituality of Imperfection. I forget the author, but it is really fascinating I think, and very ecumenical in its appeal.
Lots of good thoughts here. Easy to understand how some of the "literalistic" congregations out there just don't work for lots of folks. Of course there are several others who take a more interperative look at scripture.
Our connection to God or Christ sometimes becomes conflicting when we try too hard to do this with our literal mind instead of our interperative heart. Since the bomb and subsequent D, I have worked hard to speak and listen with my heart more while I rest my mind. The mind tends to scamper around, easily distracted, and getting hung up on words. Many of us have learned how much pain a wounded heart can create. An uplifted heart can bring a calm peace and even new joy.
Yoga and meditation helped me learn to listen more with my heart, and focus my faith on faith. Everyone must find their own path for their own journey. What matters is that pick a path that is right for us rather than avoiding choosing altogether. Of course when I say right, I mean "right" ... not simply easier or more adventurous. Those paths already seem to be full of WASs and I hate long lines.
Our connection to God or Christ sometimes becomes conflicting when we try too hard to do this with our literal mind instead of our interperative heart. Since the bomb and subsequent D, I have worked hard to speak and listen with my heart more while I rest my mind. The mind tends to scamper around, easily distracted, and getting hung up on words.
Oh i love that w2s. I still struggle with giving my mind a rest...but I can tell I have more peace when I can come at life from the direction of my hear. Seems to me acceptance without judgment comes more from the heart, and acceptance is the only way we make it sanely through these struggles.
Ya Dodo.... I can relate to that perspective. Perhaps not as clearly defined as your experience but I do see more tolerance for the WAW than the WAH. Perhaps given the expectation for a many to be the "Spiritual Head of the House" it is more an abdication of responsibility in this context. In addition, I can't help but believe that some women can portray themselves as the hapless victims of their "opressive men" (sorry ladies... I am not painting all with same brush... just giving a narrow viewpoint of some I have experienced).
I think some women have an easier time rationalizing themselves and being viewed as vicitms. I am probably ruffling some feathers by stating so. I am speaking largely from my ex's perspective too. She rationalized this way. "I got married too young. He is never around. He changed since we first got married. etc, etc." While none of these are necessarily incorrect, they do not represent a balanced perspective.
Again.... sorry ladies if this is offensive.
I simply agree that there appears to be more empathy and less judgement for a woman walking away from a "Christian" marriage than a man.... in my experience anyway.
Ya Lost.... the church as I have experienced is just not prepared to deal with many issues of the day. But that is ok. God shows up in some of the most amazing places. I ran into him all over the place out in the drug world.
God does not need us to tell him where and when to show up. Eh?
One of the most amazing realizations of church I had was a pastor I really liked and helped me a ton walked away from a prestigious position with a mega church.
One day he realized that he was just a part of a big machine that produced conformists rather than doing work of God. So, so SO many resources went to keep the machine running... building costs, salaries, programs, etc. He finally got to asking himself if there was much meaning left over. The answer was of course "yes", much work was being done, however at what cost.
He actually rationalized that here he was in a Bible belt town with a congregation of about 3,000 in a community of about 80,000. The resources that went into putting on the Sunday service was like putting on a major production.
Yet he ovserved that there were over 46 AA meetings in that same town every week. If you added NA and Alanon, it would be closer to 60. Yet there were no salaries, titles, buildings, budgets, positions or even leaders. It was run by the people for the people it served... not unlike the early church?
So basically he quit and went back to practicing law which is where he came from in the first place. He wrote a book called "The Church Corporation" I do not believe it has been released yet but keep your eye out for it.
This man is not some theorist. He is a businessman and experienced lawyer... would be in his mid-50s has adult kids and has worked in a few different parts of the world.
This drove me all the closer to my program of recover.... and frankly rooms like this. I read very little of the commercial stuff from Michele. I did at first but my real healing came from the fellowship of these dialogues.
Being overly literal about the Bible... interesting one. On one hand I believe we heave a sincere motive to embrace accurately the "inspired" word of God. Which in my mind, no doubt, the Bible is God's inpired Word. So to not take it literally would be a tough thing for any sincere and devout believer.
Yet... I am left perplexed at how some scriptures have or have not manifested in the expected results. And therefore leave me wondering if we indeed have been overly literal.
My background includes a lot of Pentecostal, Word Faith, and Charismatic envivornments. If the Word of God was as literal in application as (we) Penetcostals profess.... there would, for example, be far less death due to illness and certainly less divorce. We could just stand by faith and "whatsoever we ask will be given to us".
To be as simplistic as possible... I gotta say.... after having tried to stand on that scripture and many others, I have come to the conclusion that there has to be more to these scriptures than the simple literal translation.
An eye-opening teaching I heard one time was by Philip Yancey.... author of What's So Amazing About Grace. He refers to the Sermon on the Mount where Jesus teaches that to hate is the same as murder and to lust after another is the same as adultery.
This scripture has been used, in my experience, to beat the everlovin' crap out of poor wanna-be compliant believer. If it were that literal, there would be no hope for any of us. Yancey asks the question, could it not be perhaps that Jesus was speaking of God's ultimate standard as a guidepost to work toward? Fair question I feel. Yet this is only slightly less literal.
I can tell you... if only the literal were true, then there is no hope for me. Yet I believe deeply that there is.
So what is the right interpretation and what is not? Well ain't that the $64,000 question? It should keep the church divided into mulitiple sub-denominations for years to come!
For me, just for today, God has given me a beautiful day, happiness, a wonderful new wife, fabulous kids, health, employment and a lot of other wonderful things. Thats enough for me to interpret literally, "This is the day the Lord has made, I will be happy" (slight paraphrasing... "rejoice" is just to churchy for me).
