I apologize for what will be a blatant thread hi-jack, but I confess that the "MLC: Mental Illness or Not" debate is of interest to me, so I want to share some thoughts based on what MMF posted.
By the way, these are MY opinions and only that. And I will openly state that I am NOT an expert on mental illness.
Mental illnesses are medical conditions that disrupt a person’s thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others, and daily functioning.
My thoughts here are that my ex's abilities in this area appeared to be diminished only in relation to me. She certainly continued to function just fine at work and with her new circle of friends. As with much of this MLC mess, it seems the only one who truly gets the impaired treatment is the LBS and anyone who disagrees with what they are doing.
Mental illnesses are biologically based brain disorders. They cannot be overcome through "will power" and are not related to a person's "character" or intelligence.
So if this is the case with MLC, these spouses who have chosen to return home and make ammends for their wandering ways could only have done so through significant medical treatment. I don't recall that being mentioned very often. So my conclusion is to ask, is MLC a biologically based brain disorder? I don't think so.
The DSM-IV lists "social or vocational impairment" as a criterion in nearly all the major mental illnesses, and with good reason--otherwise, every perturbation of the person's emotional life becomes an illness.
Again, my take here is that the impaired ability socially or vocationally only seems to apply when the MLC'er is dealing with the spouse or someone who disagrees with them. These people for the most part hold down jobs, interact socially with people, in some cases even continue to care for children.
In addition, clinicians look for a recognizable pattern of signs and symptoms; a familial or genetic predisposition; an expectable or predictable course; and, in some cases, a predictable response to treatment, as general features of what we would call a disease, illness or disorder.
I guess we see some of these things in MLC. There is certainly some commonality in the behaviors and comments. If there is any familial predisposition, it seems like it would only be in the sense of learned behavior, not in an inherited "condition" so to speak. The real failing here I believe is that there is certainly no predictable response to treatment. In fact, I'm not familiar with any treatment for this disease.
Again, just my thoughts, but I think it's worthwhile to kick this around in debate.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
Jay, honestly, no one, even those who will claim otherwise, is strong enough to handle what has been thrown at us. There are many who have never been in a good marriage and had spouses that were either cruel or serial adulterers.
Others have had the proverbial rug pulled out from under them when, even though we didn't have perfect marriages, we completely stunned that our spouse says they have never been happy, never loved us and were biding their time until they could leave. Over and over again, people have been told this and I have read enough stories from people here (that are working on restoring their marriages) that their spouse either cannot remember saying those words or completely reject those statements as ever being true.
Some may have never been happy but they realized it was not the one they left behind that caused this unhappiness.
Jay, your story is very similar to mine in that my wife was a stay at home mom. This was a mutual decision and actually, she originally had to talk me into it. We sacrificed to make that happen. We were on the same team and made decisions together!
When she wanted to go back to school and work on her masters, I was completely supportive even though I had grown to appreciate her being home because the children were becoming incredible people. Caring, loving, and all around good kids. They got into trouble but it was all so normal stuff.
My W went to college, graduated and two months went by and (bam!) she said she wanted out of the marriage and never loved me. She started going out to all hours of the night, partying with her new friends from work. She started to dress sexy enough the kids actually got the courage to speak to her.
The next night after the kids said something to her, she moved out. Imagine how that made the kids feel? They felt responsible. It took me at least 6 months to help them realize that it was not them.
When she left, a month or two went by before she saw them. She would call them most evenings and speak to them for only 5 minutes (for all 3 of them!).
This is the mom that loved being with her kids.
Over time, it has gotten somewhat better. She wrote in her blog (she asked me to read it), she commented that a person in her life, she thought had become unlovable, she has recently begun to feel a sense of love for. She added that maybe someday that person would accept this love, even though it is not what that person would hope for. And, of course, my ego realizes that she is speaking of me. Not to mention, she said that I would understand a portion of it.
Does this disappoint me? No. Not at all. If she thought I was unlovable and now has a "sense of love" for me, then anything is possible. I remember I have no control over her and this situation. The only thing I can do is the right thing.
My point is that you don't know what is happening. You are hurting and your self protection is in full force. Plus, you are protecting your children and hurting for them. You see your W as this person that has betrayed you and has been deceptive.
Let me, let you on a little secret...she is betraying and deceiving herself. The happiness she is seeking cannot be found like that and her family is where she belongs. Everything else is a lie.
And as Jack has so accurately stated, she is not in her right mind at this time. At least probably not. Is it mental illness? Probably not in the sense of the strict definition but she is reacting in an odd way to her identity.
In my thought process, if my W is reacting incorrectly to what is going through in her mind, I do not want to make the same mistake by reacting to her actions and words. I will sit back and let her work through this and, God willing, she will want to come back home and be a member of this family.
For the first time in my life, I could care less whether I am told I am right or see her pay for what she has done. I care only about seeing my W make it through this and be an ear for her. Not a mouth, telling her what she did was wrong but someone who will do more than talk a good talk, and be her friend.
Not to scare you away, which since you are one of the few men brave enough (IMO) to be on a site like this, I would say you do want to fight for your marriage. The irony is that sometimes the best way to fight is to simply not do anything. It is to love your W from a distance and not seek her approval or have any type of expectations from her.
My W and have been married for nearly 18 years, dating for 22 years, with three children (D15, S13 & S11).
Keep the faith!
Me:56, W:51 D:26,S:24,S:22 Married:18 Bomb 9/27/06 Separated 11/27/06 Divorced 10/6/08 Leaving it up to God
Bill, I wasn't disagreeing with you. In fact, that is why I provided comments that were based on accepted psychiatric opinions. The fact is that I think we may use the word mental illness too broadly (I am guilty of that) when it may be something that can be a depressive episode not brought on by a physical condition. The fact that many of our spouses experience severe depressive episodes leading up to the bomb, has a tendency to help me believe that their may be a number of spouses the mental illness that is undiagnosed. My W is now on depression medicine and has had been classified as having a disorder of sorts although I still do not go so far as saying she is mentally ill.
Also, considering the number of spouses that have needed significant therapy (which is also a course of treatment mentioned on the site, separate from using a prescription based therapy) before they have been able to entertain the decision to go back to their marriage, I would say we may be surprised that a statistically significant number of our spouses may have varying degrees of mentall illness.
I know from reading many of the threads here that a decent number of posters have commented that their spouse is now on some sort of medication for depression or other disorder that is classified in the DSM-IV.
But, I do believe that some of our spouses are making a conscious decision to their actions. In those cases, I believe environmental factors play a larger part in their decisions, whether it was childhood issues such as abuse or neglect or whatever.
I, for one, think that many people will use an excuse when the truth is, they have lack of moral character. For those that have changed their personality more dramatically, either the person was truthfully leading a lie the whole time, doing what was expected or there is an emotional imbalance within themselves.
On the other hand, some people may not be good at making value judgments at some time in their life. I don't know of anyone who hasn't made that mistake in their life, myself included.
Jack provides an excellent example of his W who was in so much pain (it was real to her) that she chose how she felt would remove that pain. Whether she would be classified mentally ill or not, there was something wrong. And whether the experts feel that it is impossible for her to overcome such an illness, it is still more theory than science. The fact is, she is working on her family and her relationship and not off somewhere else being narcissistic.
Some may never confront their demons.
Bill, again, please do not think I am disagreeing with you. Most of what you have said, I agree with.
The one area that I find incredible to believe but I have read of cases is where people who are in the throes of insane behavior can hold down jobs, have friendships, still be a decent parent (I would use that term loosey if the parent is running around acting like a teenager without restraint).
The one thing I have to remind myself, is that no matter how similar a situation, my story will not be identicial because my W is a different person than someone else's H or W.
Me:56, W:51 D:26,S:24,S:22 Married:18 Bomb 9/27/06 Separated 11/27/06 Divorced 10/6/08 Leaving it up to God
Even the experts, the people with all the cool letters at the end of their name, not all of them believe in MLC. Some do some don't ascribe to it.
Like Bill I am not an expert.
My vibrant wonderful wife was crushed with something that made her abadon her children, have an affair, and turn into the selfish creature. Seemingly overnight (Not true).
She still talks about the hopelessness she felt and the absolute loss of control and overwhelming despair.
I do not believe in the 'Devil made me do it." But the person my wife became was so opposite the person I knew, the only other explaination would have been a changling.
Our son turning 10 trigger something in her and she went bat shi t crazy.
Not attacking anyone's postion here.
I believe in MLC as an illness, temporary or otherwise, because that is what I needed to do to get through to the point I am at.
I am fully capable of saying I used it to protect my ability to stand as long as I did. Placebo or not, and I'll likely never know.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
MMF, No worries, I was not thinking you were disagreeing. Just wanted to continue the conversation. You posted some interesting stuff.
And Jack, know that I was not belittling anyone who does feel the MLC is an illness. I walked in that camp for some time myself, and it certainly would not be unfair to say that my opinions today are colored by my own experiences.
I really think the reality of all this is that however you feel about MLC, it really should not affect what is in your heart to do in response to your spouses actions.
I know that some want to know the odds are good before they commit themselves to a long stand. Personally I think that's hedging your bets - something I think would be off the table when dealing with something as significant as your marriage.
You hold on to the possibility of healing for as long as you think it still exists. We each have to decide that on it's own. I think it was Jeff223 who first told me that each of us should have to EARN the right to give up our stand. That kind of idea resonates with me.
It's up to you and me to decide when we've earned that right. No one else gets to make that decision. But if we're really people of integrity, we don't need someone watching us and letting us know when that time is - we will know.
Great conversation. I hope it helps Jay in some way.
I'll close with this Jay. If you took your marriage vows seriously, if you truly meant "in sickness and in health, for better or worse, till death do us part," it seems to me that there ought to be some labor involved, some hard work, some painful work even, before we are ready to pronounce the marriage dead.
And by the way, it was NOT the act of infidelity that signaled the death of my marriage.
Blessings,
Bill
"Don't tell me the sky is the limit when there are footprints on the moon."
Wow I like that; it really resonants with me. Yeah, honest. I think thats why I get upset at some, who give over a seemingly trival effort and throw up their hands in defeat.
Thanks Bill, BTW never thought you were attacking me...just seen too many times a debate get too heated and old friends fall out.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
When I said I was sorry, I meant I'm sorry your French. :P
All kididng aside.
You do what you have to do for yourself, but have no regrets later in life for your actions today.
MLC has a high fall out rate. Men in particular I don't think are designed for the patience in many cases, and that is a generalization, and speaking from my own experience, because my wife came back right when I was ready willing and looking forward to moving on.
Experience is a brutal teacher, but you learn. My God, do you learn. - C.S. Lewis
Life is usually all about how you handle Plan B. - Jack3Beans
Listen without defending; Speak without offending - FaithinAK
