The flame is flickering out...

[Nutty Chick]

Are you saying her fear of losing the children has caused her to tell lies that could possibly result in her losing her children?

Yes. But like I said, I don't know if it is lying or just a lack of familiarity with reality.

[/quote]

I think she may be reviewing the past through hurt eyes. There must be a lot of pain in her heart and that is intensifying what she is feeling.

I don't understand the question. Her "fears were real." you mean, she was AFRAID that I would want 50% custody of my own children? Ok, if that is what she was afraid of, then yes, the fears were well founded. But is that a reasonable fear? I mean, come on, it's a divorce. It's 2008. What does she think will happen to the kids?

yes I do mean that. I would not allow my son to live my H 50% of the time. Very few mothers would. Very few courts would allow that. I don't believe that would be in the best interest of the child. Yes they need 2 parets but they need continuety and routein more. I can't believe you would think it Ok for your children to live half and half with you and your wife.

And what do you mean, was I "just trying to scare her?" ??

Yes, I really expected to get the kids 50% of the time. And I still do. And I disagree with the implicit premise in your question - you asked Did you really expect her to let you have the kids 50% of the time ...? It's not her decision, is it? The kids are not hers to award as she sees fit. They are my kids too, are they not? What does it mean to speak of her "letting me have the kids" ? It is not her prerogative. The children are not her possession.

I think the children should have some say in where they go.
In the Uk you would have very little chance of getting your kids with you 50% of the time if your W did not agree.



What I meant about scaring her was, were you trying to make her behave in a way you wanted her to by threatening to take her children away.

There is ZERO contact allowed. I am not "showing her" anything. Zero contact is zero contact.

Come on, you know as well as I do you are getting to her through friends, family and your kids.

.

Lies? or Delusion?

or denial ...?

I don't know.

me neither ...


But it is a pretty elaborate thing for your W to do if there is NO truth here.

Nutty.

[Nutty Chick]

SirPrize. I really don’t think you are lying .. I really don’t think your wife is lying either. You clearly have different perceptions of the same event.

I think her perception is as equally valid as yours.The way she felt about the way you behved is valid. You may not have wanted her to feel afraid but I believe she did. Why else did she join an abused womans group?

You have strong views and opinions, but are very ridged in your thinking. It must have been hard for your wife to have a discussion with you and get herself heard, as you seem to find it difficult to empathise and accept another person’s point of view.

Nutty

[Nutty Chick]

In the letter you wrote split time was the worse thing ever ... now you are saying you expect the kids 50% of the time??


What is the truth?

I mean, come on, it's a divorce. It's 2008. What does she think will happen to the kids?

And what do you mean, was I "just trying to scare her?" ??

Yes, I really expected to get the kids 50% of the time. And I still do.

You wrote that I tried to keep you from seeing your kids again. For my part, it was never a thought that crossed my mind. Honestly. After all we’ve been through, I think you may not feel very trusting of me now. You will choose to trust my words, or not. But here it is: I never had a thought that I wanted to get the kids away from you, I never tried to separate them from you. I see who you are to them, I see you are their mother and they love you and want to be with you. I see that you love them and want to be with them. I love all of that. I cherish that. I am glad you are their mom. and I never want to interfere with that. This seems like a horrible misunderstanding. I think it may have been related to my proposal to move back to Pittsburgh, and re-occupy the house there. I explained in email what that was about. It was not an intention to keep you from the children. For me it was a practical approach to the difficulties we are in. An idea to consider. I always expected you and I would be in Pittsburgh together. It would be a way we could spend more time with the kids, live more affordably, and be nearer to familiar adults and extended family who could support our kids through this difficult time for them. I never wanted to keep you away from the kids. In fact I think the separation between the kids and each parent, that occurs as parents “split time” is the worst. I would not want to make it worse that it will already be for them.

Your note also said you were scared that I would hurt you or kill you or kill myself.

She was in fear of her life SirPrize.

Thats how scared she was.

Nutty.

[SirPrizeMe]

Hey Nutty,
I know that she was afraid. I know.
I heard her. But I never threatened her. I didn't put that fear there.

I would not allow my son to live my H 50% of the time. Very few mothers would. Very few courts would allow that. I don't believe that would be in the best interest of the child. Yes they need 2 parets but they need continuety and routein more. I can't believe you would think it Ok for your children to live half and half with you and your wife.

The laws in the US are not like that. The preference is for 50/50 time in my state. That's the way it is now. The mother does not get to decide. Also, the kids do not get to decide, not until they are 13,14,15 years old, and then their opinion is weighed but is not the final arbiter.

She can be "afraid" of splitting time with the kids, just as she can be "afraid" of her own financial independence. But that is not me "scaring her". It seems more to be "not liking the consequences of her decisions."

On the "I cherish that" - I do! I do cherish her bond with the kids. But I also cherish my bond with the kids. I think splitting a family is terrible. Divorce is hell. But I will not surrender my time with the kids, to agree to her wishes. Me giving up my kids does not "unsplit" the family. NO. For me, that's not what empathy and compliance is about. I'm sorry. I don't care how un-empathetic that sounds. I won't do it. It's a divorce, forpeetsake. It's not ok for her to have the kids 100% of the time. This is 2008.

What I meant about scaring her was, were you trying to make her behave in a way you wanted her to by threatening to take her children away.

NO. Threatening? What you describe is the epitome of control. But I don't see that in my behavior. What would make you suggest this? I don't understand what you're referring to.

I did not threaten anything. Look, if a couple with children divorces, there are consequences. I don't think she thought them through when she filed, or while she was imagining herself happily divorced from me. To say "If you quit your job, you will lack money" is not a threat. Although, I grant, some people could perceive that as threatening, or could be afraid just hearing those words. But that reaction seems a little ....unreasonable?

I really don’t think your wife is lying either. You clearly have different perceptions of the same event.

I get that perceptions vary. In some situations, differing perceptions may be valid. It is sometimes hard to say.
But it is easy to evaluate the truth of a statement like "he threatened my friends, intimidated them to keep them from supporting me". This is not a perception thing. Either I threatened them or I didn't.

We can ask the people in question their perception of the conversations. If they felt threatened, then my interaction with them was threatening. But if my wife imagined or perceived them to feel threatened, that is not enough to state that my interaction with them was threatening. That is my wife putting her imagination where it does not belong.

If my wife perceives that my interaction with her friends was threatening, that is a valid perception, and I recognize that she may be feeling it, perceiving it. But it is in conflict with reality. I am not denying she felt it. Only questioning the reasonableness in feeling it.

But this is just one incident. There are MANY. All very similar. Numerous incidents where her perceptions are at odds with reality. Some cannot be proven, one way or the other. Some are provably wrong. "He hacked into my computer to spy on me." This is just wrong. It's not a matter of perception. Either I did, or did not, do this thing.

I think her perception is as equally valid as yours.The way she felt about the way you behved is valid. You may not have wanted her to feel afraid but I believe she did. Why else did she join an abused womans group?

Well, it sure seems that she felt afraid. You're quite right - why would she join such a group if not for fear? (Unless she is really calculating, which I doubt). But the point is, is the fear reasonable?

Is it reasonable for her to feel I would kill her? Is it reasonable for her boyfriend to live in fear of his life? Is it reasonable for her to perceive me pounding on her car when no such act occurred? Is it reasonable for her to remember me yelling "blowjob" in the house with the kids around when I never ever uttered that word out loud?

I guess the courts will decide. My opinion doesn't really matter.

She was in fear of her life SirPrize.
Thats how scared she was.

It's hell. I get it. I'm sorry for her fear. I didn't put it there. Honest. I get that it's there. But I didn't put it there.

[SirPrizeMe]

But it is a pretty elaborate thing for your W to do if there is NO truth here.

Elaborate for her to say - he was always working, and when he wasn't working, he was on his bike? I don't know. I don't know how "elaborate" that is. I think she is being coached by her abused women's support group to say these things.

They just aren't true. She can retroactively "perceive" me to have worked 60 hour weeks, but there is no truth there. And she never once approached me and said, you know, honey, you are working too much and I don't think you see the kids enough. It's retroactive! I mean...how is it reasonable that she can twist my employment into a flaw, a reason I should not have my kids?

[SirPrizeMe]

Come on, you know as well as I do you are getting to her through friends, family and your kids.

I just read this statement now.

Nutty, I want to end this dialogue with you.

You seem to challenge everything I say. You wrote the word "harass" when describing my interaction with our family friends, which I think was provocative on your part, whether intentional or not. You seem to bring your own issues into this conversation. You seem to have not much to offer me. Nor I you. You seem to want to put me on the defensive. I don't see a contination of interaction helping either of us.

Thanks for your time.

[Nutty Chick]

I'm sorry for her fear. I didn't put it there. Honest. I get that it's there. But I didn't put it there.

I held on so tightly, holding you back, frightening you.

[Nutty Chick]

I get it. I'm sorry for her fear. I didn't put it there. Honest. I get that it's there. But I didn't put it there.

I see that you’ve been damaged and broken from this forever. Sometimes I see that the mere sight of me is painful for you, and I know it will stay that way. I don’t want to cause you any more pain.

What was the 'this' you were refering to if not your relationship / behaviour?

If you had done nothing wrong why do you accept that the sight of you causes her pain?

Why do you say 'I don't want to cause you more pain' if you did not cause her pain?

Nutty.

[Nutty Chick]

Nutty, I want to end this dialogue with you.

You seem to challenge everything I say.

my way or the highway.

That’s a crappy way to be. I know I have a strong tendency to want to be “right.” I talk too much, too loud. It’s a bad character flaw. Thinking about it, I’d rather be quiet and kind than loud and right, but often I can’t help myself. I guess it’s the way I was brought up.

[SirPrizeMe]

Thanks for the support Nutty.
Ok, maybe you're pushing my envelope, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Let's take her "my way or the highway" statement.

I agree that I am louder than her. That I can be too direct. But ... for me, I never intended her life to be "my way or the highway." She picked her car. I had an opinion but did not offer it. I suggested she do the research and pick the one she wanted, because it would be her car. after she picked, I did all the legwork ordering it, negotiating the price, buying it, and picking it up. I wanted silver, she got red, which is what she wanted.

For her birthday I wanted to get her a convertible. But it was a big purchase, not something to just go do independently. And so I didn't buy it, but I picked it out. And on her birthday, sadly, I couldn't just present the car to her. I told her about it. Then we went to see it. I talked to her and said, look, I'm just offering a gift to you. You don't need to accept it. If you like the car, we'll get it. If you want a different car, we can get a different one. If you don't want any new car, that's fine too. In the end she agreed to accept the car I had picked. We bought it. This is not me forcing the issue. It's not me insisting.

She picked out the houses we lived in. I agreed. She picked our vacation spots. I agreed. In fact I just don't get the "my way or the highway" at all. I asked her to tell me just what this meant - and she said "it's none of the big things, but all of the little things."

I was grappling with an alligator. Every time I tried to address something head on (eg she says, "it was your way or the highway". I say "ok, tell me about that - give me some examples"), the gator rolls over again. It wasn't the car. It wasn't the schools the kids went to. It wasn't how many kids we had. It wasn't our house. It wasn't whether the kids went to summer camp or not. It wasn't our family budget. It wasn't anything I could think of that would fall into the "big decisions" bucket. She and I collaborated on all of these things I mentioned, and I often acceded to her wishes. She was wise, and I accepted that and was thankful for that.

So when I said, look, none of the "Big things" I can think of were my way or the highway. What then?

She offered mops! And Sald dressing! Mops??!?!! Apparently I had an opinion on the mop we use in our kitchen, and that was the reason she said it was always my way or the highway. Look, honestly, I don't care that much about the mop. I don't remember having an argument about the mop. There is no way I would put my marriage at risk over a freaking mop. or salad dressing. When I hear this, I think, "is this for real? This cannot be real!"

So what I wrote to her was, I'm sorry you felt that way. I didn't intend any of it. I am not ducking, not accepting, not denying responsibility for her feelings in that letter. I am only empathizing. I wish it wasn't that way. I didn't know. I'm sorry you feel this way now. And I truly am.