The flame is flickering out...

[SirPrizeMe]

Nutty - you are right!

And I hate it when I spill to people.
Weak! I am weak!

I hurt sooo much when she took my kids. It was to keep my sanity that I reached out. Honestly I thought I was losing it.

[SirPrizeMe]

Surely your wife's infidelity was just her humanness?

Yes, indeed! She is only human.

[Nutty Chick]

I hurt sooo much when she took my kids. It was to keep my sanity that I reached out. Honestly I thought I was losing it.

Maybe she felt you were losing it too. Maybe she thought she had pushed you over the edge. Maybe that is why she took what she felt was the necessary step to protect herself and the children.

I am not saying she needed protection, just that she felt that way.

Nutty

[SirPrizeMe]

Wait - the ordering you are assuming is wrong. I reached out to her family AFTER the protection order.

Look, I know why she petitioned for protection - it was a tactic.
She actually confessed to my sister that she asked for the protection order because she was afraid that I would have the kids taken from her, for her behavior. She wanted to pre-empt me. She said this. (Unless my sister is lying, which I doubt). Her fear was real, but unfounded.

The weird irony is, the more she reacts to this fear, the more real the object of her fear becomes. You know? How tragic is that? It is as if her fear actually conjures the thing she is afraid of. It's a plot device out of a Harry Potter book! She invents allegations because she is afraid of losing her kids, and when all the allegations prove false, what is the evaluator going to say?

My beef is with a system that allows and even encourages this. Ok, we ought to protect the innocents and defenseless. I agree with that strongly. But can we not have a speedier evaluation? Why does it take 4 months for the state to get around to evaluating her allegations? And, why are there no repercussions for false allegations?

[Nutty Chick]

Wait - the ordering you are assuming is wrong. I reached out to her family AFTER the protection order.

Oh, that OK then.

Look, I know why she petitioned for protection - it was a tactic.
She actually confessed to my sister that she asked for the protection order because she was afraid that I would have the kids taken from her, for her behavior. She wanted to pre-empt me.
She said this. (Unless my sister is lying, which I doubt).

OK Now you have convinced me she is nuts. She can't be sane to tell your sister her tactics!!

And my beef is with a system that allows this. Ok, we ought to protect the innocents and defenseless. I agree with that strongly. But can we not have a speedier evaluation? Why does it take 4 months for the state to get around to evaluating her allegations?

I agree it is a long time. It must be awful having this hanging over your head for 4 months.

Nutty.

[SirPrizeMe]

ps, this is what I wrote to W in January, 2 weeks before I received the DV order. She had written me a note - a diatribe really, a justification for why she had to leave our marriage, a justification for her affair and all the subsequent pain and lies. Basically she said I was controlling, I persecuted her, I abused her, and she was done with it all. I thought "respond or not?" In the end I decided to respond. I wanted to recognize what was very real for her - her perception - but at the same time say, Look, I never intended it to be horrible, I'm sorry, I wish it weren't that way. Finally, I wish her the best and express a hope we can work collaboratively on the divorce. She thanked me for the note. Two weeks later the police were at my door. Your thoughts on this?


Thank you for giving me your note. I thought I would respond. I took some time to think about what I’d write to you.

In it you said you were very afraid of me, and you had fears of other things. [W], I am so sorry. I am so sorry you are afraid. Of me. and of other things.

The past 18 months have been hell on us. I see now that during this time, I have tried to control you, I’ve tried to hold you in a marriage you did not want to be in, and all of this scared you. I am so sorry for that.

I know it was controlling. I see that now. I see that me telling you I felt like jumping out a window was terrible for you. It was never a conscious intention to control you, if that makes any sense. It’s just that I really really really did not want to see our family broken up. But it is one thing for me to say that – I don’t want to see our family broken up – and it is another thing for me to tell you I felt like jumping out a window. It is one thing for me to say I am really hurting. It is another thing for me to pick up a knife and put it on the counter and tell you, that I feel like I am getting stabbed [I did this the 3rd day after I found out about the affair. she had told me she stopped with the man, but then the man's wife called me back, sent me an email my wife sent to her husband. she had not stopped. she was just lying. I was devastated that she could continue this way.] I get that my actions this way, hurt you. I am so sorry for this. These actions, which feel scary and traumatic and abusive to you, come from, up to now, my unwillingness to accept your decision. That is changed.

I am letting go. I accept your choice.

I held on so tightly, holding you back, frightening you. I am so sorry. I regret some of my behavior, but I do not regret the effort and passion I put into keeping our family together. I am sorry that I didn’t want to allow you to chart your own course. I’ve been thinking. Slowly. Quietly. And what I found is: Deep down I really want you to be happy. And if you are not happy staying with me, ok. I still want you to be happy, with whatever course you choose for yourself. I want that very much. I know you’ll be happy. I’m getting out of the way.

You know that I wanted to have our family all stay together. I looked at our situation as a challenge. I am willing to change, to learn, to improve myself, to make myself a better person, to be the best I can be for this family. I have always been into self-improvement, reading, working out, learning new skills for working on the house, that kinda stuff. And this was no different. And I have changed in good ways through this time. And I will continue to grow in good ways, for myself. And as I worked on my stuff, I tried to insist that we stay together, because I feel so strongly about marriage. I know now that I cannot do that. I cannot insist. I know it’s not my place to insist on what you do with your life.

I see that you’ve been damaged and broken from this forever. Sometimes I see that the mere sight of me is painful for you, and I know it will stay that way. I don’t want to cause you any more pain.

So I am accepting your choice. Really there was never any other option. In retrospect, I wish I could have been more accepting, sooner.
 
There are some other things you said, that troubled me. You might be interested in my view on some of it. I don’t want to try to change your mind, just share my view. You wrote that I tried to keep you from seeing your kids again. For my part, it was never a thought that crossed my mind. Honestly. After all we’ve been through, I think you may not feel very trusting of me now. You will choose to trust my words, or not. But here it is: I never had a thought that I wanted to get the kids away from you, I never tried to separate them from you. I see who you are to them, I see you are their mother and they love you and want to be with you. I see that you love them and want to be with them. I love all of that. I cherish that. I am glad you are their mom. and I never want to interfere with that. This seems like a horrible misunderstanding. I think it may have been related to my proposal to move back to Pittsburgh, and re-occupy the house there. I explained in email what that was about. It was not an intention to keep you from the children. For me it was a practical approach to the difficulties we are in. An idea to consider. I always expected you and I would be in Pittsburgh together. It would be a way we could spend more time with the kids, live more affordably, and be nearer to familiar adults and extended family who could support our kids through this difficult time for them. I never wanted to keep you away from the kids. In fact I think the separation between the kids and each parent, that occurs as parents “split time” is the worst. I would not want to make it worse that it will already be for them.

Your note said you felt constant criticism in our marriage – that I thought you were never clean enough, healthy enough, you never had a good enough job, and some other things. I am so sorry for this. Feeling that criticism, I can see that was hell for you. You said I kept you from your hobbies, from your family, and rejected your thoughts. I never intended to do any of this. I can see how horrible this felt for you. You said I didn’t appreciate you, except for mothering and cooking. That had to feel awful. In my heart I did appreciate you, for your creativity, your energy, your ability to bring people together, your sense of fun, your empathy, your sense of calm under pressure. I saw all that and loved it. It’s too bad I didn’t know how to show my appreciation.

Your note also said you were scared that I would hurt you or kill you or kill myself. Wow. No one should have this kind of fear. Someone who had talked to [OM] said he also expressed a fear that I wanted to kill him, too. Wow. Look, I’m not killing anyone. I’ve never plotted it. I’ve never considered it. I don’t want to hurt anyone. I never wanted to hurt you. I’m not planning breaking into the house at night. I’m not spying on you. I’ve regretted our confrontation that dark night 18 months ago [when I found out about her affair], ever since it happened. I don’t ever want to go there again.

You also wrote that in our marriage, it was my way or the highway. That’s no marriage. That’s a crappy way to be. I know I have a strong tendency to want to be “right.” I talk too much, too loud. It’s a bad character flaw. Thinking about it, I’d rather be quiet and kind than loud and right, but often I can’t help myself. I guess it’s the way I was brought up.

I mean, reading all that you wrote, I don’t know what to say. It was horrible. I can see it was horrible for you. Reading what you wrote, understanding what you were going through, I can see how it was for you. I wish I saw it then. I’m sorry I was not the man you needed. I wish I could have been that person, but obviously I wasn’t. Reading all what you wrote, what you felt, I don’t blame you one bit for wanting out. Who could live with that? I wish I could rewind it all, I wish I could erase all the hurt. I wish I could.
 
I know you’ll decide where you'll be happiest, and I’m glad for that. I wish you all of the best in your new life. And I’ll be happier too. You’re absolutely right, I don’t want a partner who stays because she is afraid to leave. I really don't want to be with someone who doesn't want to be with me. That’s no good for anybody – you, me, or the kids. I want someone who wants me.

I know there will be good things for you in your future, and I’m so glad. And you know, there are some good things that have come out of this for me. I’m getting a fresh start. You already know I’ve been examining myself and how I affect people. I’m changing in other ways, too. I’m back to church now, and I’m really enjoying that. I look forward to it each week. I’m thinking more about how I look. I’m meeting new people, people I never imagined I’d be meeting. I’m going new places, trying new things. Going dancing. I’m being quieter and kinder. I’ll find someone who wants me as much as I want her. That’s a neat feeling. I’m looking forward to having money for my own place. It’s all an unexpected new start! Not what I had planned on, but I’m already having fun!

I hope we can navigate the future calmly. It’s probably not going to be all agreeable. We’ll disagree on various things. But I’m hopeful we can keep it calm and businesslike. I will keep the kids’ best interests in mind as we go forward, and I know you want that, too.

[Nutty Chick]

The weird irony is, the more she reacts to this fear, the more real the object of her fear becomes. You know? How tragic is that? It is as if her fear actually conjures the thing she is afraid of. It's a plot device out of a Harry Potter book! She invents allegations because she is afraid of losing her kids, and when all the allegations prove false, what is the evaluator going to say?

Are you saying her fear of losing the children has caused her to tell lies that could possibly result in her losing her children?

Her fears were real though, cos you were wanting 50% custody … Did you really expect her to let you have the kids 50% of the time or were you just trying to scare her?

I would imagine the evaluator would suggest the kids exit the hearing via platform 9 ¾.

Nutty

[Nutty Chick]

SirPrize, that is some letter.

Two things spring to mind: ..

firstly you have heard everyone of her complaints and validated them. It is a very moving letter. You need to back that up with action from now on. You need to show that you meant what you said.

Actions speak louder than words.

I think you should do that for you, cos you are a man of your word and not because you think you can get her back or get her to drop any allegations.

You need to do that for you, it will make you feel better.

Secondly, I would be a little bit worried that that may go against you with the evaluator / divorce. How can you say she is ‘nuts’ and making it up when you have basically agreed with everything she has said?

Have you sent any other letters / emails that may be used against you?

Nutty.

[SirPrizeMe]

Are you saying her fear of losing the children has caused her to tell lies that could possibly result in her losing her children?

Yes. But like I said, I don't know if it is lying or just a lack of familiarity with reality.

Her fears were real though, cos you were wanting 50% custody … Did you really expect her to let you have the kids 50% of the time or were you just trying to scare her?

I don't understand the question. Her "fears were real." you mean, she was AFRAID that I would want 50% custody of my own children? Ok, if that is what she was afraid of, then yes, the fears were well founded. But is that a reasonable fear? I mean, come on, it's a divorce. It's 2008. What does she think will happen to the kids?

And what do you mean, was I "just trying to scare her?" ??

Yes, I really expected to get the kids 50% of the time. And I still do. And I disagree with the implicit premise in your question - you asked Did you really expect her to let you have the kids 50% of the time ...? It's not her decision, is it? The kids are not hers to award as she sees fit. They are my kids too, are they not? What does it mean to speak of her "letting me have the kids" ? It is not her prerogative. The children are not her possession.

Secondly, I would be a little bit worried that that may go against you with the evaluator / divorce. How can you say she is ‘nuts’ and making it up when you have basically agreed with everything she has said?

I did not agree with everything she said. I empathized with everything she said. I said "it must have felt horrible" and "I didn't realize how horrible it was for you." I did not say "I criticized you." I did not say "I made it horrible for you." I said, "It must have felt horrible that you felt criticized." (or something like that)

I said "I controlled you" but that was in the context of asking her to stay in the marriage. I never prevented her physically from leaving the house, I never prevented her from seeing her attorney. I asked her to stop calling her boyfriend but never prevented her from doing so. I never grabbed her phone or monitored her comings and goings. I did ask her to go to counseling, which she agreed to, for a while. I did ask her to go on a vacation to Hawaii with me, which she did. I was trying to rebuild and she viewed it all as "controlling", meaning, I did not accept her desire to dissolve the marriage. She's right, I did not accept it. Now I do.

You need to back that up with action from now on. You need to show that you meant what you said.

You mean, that I want her to be happy, with or without me? You mean, that I wish her the best? That I want this to be a civil discourse? That I respect her desire to end the marriage? Yes, of course I want all of that. But I have a DV allegation hanging over me. I am severely constrained.

There is ZERO contact allowed. I am not "showing her" anything. Zero contact is zero contact.

Have you sent any other letters / emails that may be used against you?

Ha! Everything I have done or said can and will be used against me! I worked hard and she alleged that I worked 60 hour weeks and consequently was never available for the kids. This is completely untrue. I have never worked 60 hours in a week since our babies arrived. I always had a personal policy that I do not work weekends. So steady 60 hour workweeks means 5 twelve-hour days in a row, every week. I NEVER work 12 hours in a day, ever. I was at work by 8am-9am and home for dinner at 530-6pm every night. When there was a baseball game at 5pm, or play at school at 5pm, I would be there. No way I worked 60 hours. But this is what she stated in a sworn declaration to the court. I was conscientious as a worker. But not 60 hours. 45, maybe.

I have one weakness, one personal passion for just me - riding my bike. I would ride one day a weekend (usually 3 weekends a month) with some other fathers. Typically it would be a 4-5 hour ride. We'd start at 6am, and I would be home and showered and ready to go do family stuff at eleven, or noon latest. All the fathers wanted to be home for their families so that is how we did it. And in the court documents she said, when I wasn't working, I was always riding my bike, and never with the family. This is horse feathers. Even my good qualities, she has twisted to make them terrible. Everyone needs a hobby, eh? Mine was NOT drinking or clubbing. And actually I loved riding with my kids, we'd do it often. But she twists this into a flaw.

Lies? or Delusion?

I don't know.

[RefuseToLose]

SPM,

I liked the letter. I have a similar one for my W, but haven't sent it as of yet. In mine, I told W I was sorry, however I apologized for her losing faith in me, for me not being the rock she wanted, for my insecurities getting in the way of us. Those are the things I said I was sorry for.

I may still send it, but I'm not sure when. I do feel sorry she lost trust in me and felt she needed to step outside our marriage. I do feel sorry she doesn't feel safe w/ me any more. I'm sorry about it, but I'm not completely taking the blame. However, I do feel remorse over everything.

I think it is ok to express these feelings b/c they are real and they don't admit fault on your part. They only admit that you are human and you feel.

Take care, my good friend.
RTL
PS - Did you ever get my e-mail about football tickets for the fall? Let me know as the offer still stands. I can't use them all, so they'd be yours for the taking.