The flame is flickering out...

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Sir,

Most guys don't have the patience for this. That is my belief. I almost didn't.

I have one question, one comment, and two observations. And I want you to realize that we are not too disimilar in what happened to us.

My question.
Do you believe in MLC, as in a sickness, or mental illness?
Not just some psycho babble gobbilly-gook? (Two questions really the same question)


My Comment:
No one is attacking you, no one gains anything by making you feel bad, no one wants to hurt you.

My observations:
Your anger is no longer your shield but your sword.
Life is not fair.

If any of this made sense to you drop me a note on my thread. I'd be happy to walk with you on this crappy trip. But you have to put in.

[Nutty Chick]

[quote=SirPrizeMe]


WOW! That was some post.

I "get" that I was in a marriage, I am human, imperfect. I also "get" that I am willing to address my faults and do the work. You're right, I am angry with my wife. I believe she destroyed something beautiful. I am angry with her for perceiving abuse where there was none. I am angry with her being so cavalier with our family, inviting a man into our bed, with our children sleeping in the next room. If we cannot be angry about these things, what will we be angry about? Where is the line?

You have every right to be angry. Venting your anger to your wife has frightened her. How is this going to improve your relationship with her?

Yes I am talking to friends of the family and to "her" family too. This may not be the case for everyone but when I got married it was the union of two families. Not just two people. They are not "her family" nor "her friends". They are our family and friends. She does not "own" people. She does not get to say who I can and cannot talk to.

As for whether I am aware that she will be hurt - hurt in what way? By the truth? If she is "hurt" by my exposing her deceit to her father, then so be it. If she is "hurt" when I tell her sister what is in the public record - that is to say, that she is accusing me of sexual abuse, if she is "hurt" by this, then it is a darn regrettable shame, but I will not stand.

Her sister has asked you not to talk to her about the sexual abuse. Her friends say you are intimidating them.

Yet you still justify your behaviour. How is this going to improve your relationship with your wife?

Is it more important for you to be right than to have a better relationship with your W?

She may be hurt because you are involving people around you in your argument with your wife. If she has made allegations about you then can defend yourself through the proper channels. It is nothing to do with her sister or friends if she is accusing you of sexual abuse.

Let me ask you something - if a man were married to a raving drunk, and she were coming home every night at 4am loaded, missing work and crashing cars - would the man be wrong to inform her friends and family what he sees? I am not saying my wife is a drunk, it is a hypothetical question. Would the man be wrong? Keep in mind that surely the drunk woman would surely be embarassed and "hurt" by the revelation of her antics. Would the man be wrong?

How would the man gossiping to friends and family help the woman in this situation?

Now switch it. The woman is not drunk, but she is flinging false allegations everywhere. She is maligning me publicly. She is keeping me from my kids unnecessarily, unfairly, and in a way that is damaging to these young people. Shall I bite my tongue because the poor girl will be "hurt" that people realize what she is doing?

You say they are false, she says they are true. It would be up to a court of law to decide. Not family, friends or anyone else.

Will have to reply to rest later as I am running late.

Nutty.

[SirPrizeMe]

Nutty,

Her sister has asked you not to talk to her about the sexual abuse. Her friends say you are intimidating them.

Correction - her sister, last I spoke with her, asked me to stop calling her. I haven't called her again and I don't intend to again. "Her friends", really family friends, have NEVER said that I intimidate them. It is my wife's assertion that I intimidate them. I spoke to them about this and they disagree - they all say "it wasn't me who felt intimidated, must be someone else." These people call me as much as I call them, every 2-3 weeks. The last contact with any of them was last Saturday when one of "her friends" called me to say, how ya hangin?

It is nothing to do with her sister or friends if she is accusing you of sexual abuse.

Ah, possibly. But here is where we differ. When we were married these people were in the church and they stood up and witnessed our union and promised to support us in our marriage. This is the way it works in the Catholic rite. I maybe take it a little too literally.

In any case my children matter, what happens to them matters to me. I have a solemn responsibility to them. Again, maybe I am too serious, too earnest about all this. I want the community - my extended family - to know what is happening to us, to my nuclear family. My children need their support.

Let me ask you something - if a man were married to a raving drunk, and she were coming home every night at 4am loaded, missing work and crashing cars - would the man be wrong to inform her friends and family what he sees? I am not saying my wife is a drunk, it is a hypothetical question. Would the man be wrong? Keep in mind that surely the drunk woman would surely be embarassed and "hurt" by the revelation of her antics. Would the man be wrong?

How would the man gossiping to friends and family help the woman in this situation?

I struggle with this. Truly. How would silence and secrecy help? How would openness and truth help? It is a difficult situation. But in the end, I am tired of the secrets and unearned shame. I try to be gentle. I work hard (and sometimes succeed) at being discreet. But in some cases I need to be truthful.

You say they are false, she says they are true. It would be up to a court of law to decide. Not family, friends or anyone else.

You do not need to believe me. But what I say is true. She said in court documents that I have called her friends specifically "to intimidate them." I called these family friends to understand - I asked them, have our conversations intimidated you? Please tell me and I will hang up, I will stop calling you now.

All of them professed disbelief. None of them FELT intimidated, all of them insisted that we continue to talk. All of them are volunteering to speak with the parenting evaluator in our case.

Yes, she says it is true, and the subjects involved say it is false. What now? What will we believe?

Look, this is just one of the false allegations. There are many. Some provably false. Most not. Nutty I am not talking about your situation here. I don't know what is going on with you, what went on in your marriage. I know 2 people can have different perspectives, and I respect that. But I am telling you what is going on with me. There are 2 possibilities. She is lying. Or, she is delusional. I don't know which it is.

She told her father I filed for divorce, when her name clearly is listed as the petitioner. She told her friends she doesn't see her boyfriend anymore, yet she had just been to visit with him out of state. She asserted to the court that I had "fallen behind on the bills" and "cut her off financially", but I have receipts from when I gave her cash, and when I took over the bills from her we were 6 weeks behind. It goes on and on. I sabotaged her efforts to get a job, because I was upset when I leanred she used the ruse of a "business meeting" to go on a date with OM. Lies? or Delusion? I don't know. Deeply troubling.

[peacetoday]

sir
wow you are going through a lot
I believe truth will always win
so hang on and trust your situation will be resolved
peace

[SirPrizeMe]

by the way Jack, you are right about me.

[SirPrizeMe]

also, Nutty, you are right when you say, Venting your anger to your wife has frightened her.

And,

How is this going to improve your relationship with her?

You and I both know the answer here!

This is funny because for the longest time, the people I have confided in - my closest friends, my siblings, even my individual counselor - have been surprised that I have not been angry at her. I got angry only in February, after the protection order.

Sometimes I think she filed the order specifically to make me angry. But when I think those thoughts I conclude that I think too much and need a bike ride.

[Nutty Chick]

Everyone of us here has contributed to the break-up of our marriages. We have all done stuff wrong; stuff we regret. We can’t turn the clock back but we can limit the damage we do.

Nuts! I contributed my own humanness to my marriage. At times, I was impatient, obnoxious, inattentive, uncaring. Sometimes I was smelly, crabby or distant. Mostly not, but sometimes. In other words, I was human. Mostly, though, I was attentive, caring, reliable, thoughtful, and loving. MOSTLY. And above all I recognized that there is always more work to do in a marriage. Have I contributed to the downfall of my marriage? By your definition, being in a marriage contributes to its downfall. Sorry, I don't share that perspective.

So you are totally denying that the fact that your: temper. controlling behaviour and the fact that you have been scary towards your children not to mention the above was just your ‘humanness’ and could not possibly have contributed to your W feelings towards you changing over time?


In that case ..surely your W infidelity was just her humanness?

I did not have an EA, nor a PA. I did not gamble. I was no drunk. I showed up on time. I brought home the money. I was the soccer coach. I drove a station wagon. I bought new DVD players after they were jammed with PB&J sandwiches. I painted and colored with my girls. I went hiking with my boys. I asked my wife on dates. I kept myself in good physical shape for her. I was polite and never called her names. I bought her presents and wrote her poetry. I shared family responsibilities with her equitably. I scrubbed toilets and supported her leadership on family finances. I was a father and a husband.

So why do you think her feelings for you changed?

Problem is, if at this time I don't prove that I am right and my wife is wrong... I will lose my children. That is what she is working toward right now.

I will drop the right-v-wrong when I have secured custody of my kids.

I agree you need to prove your innocence through the correct channels. However, you will alienate your wife further if you keep harassing her friends and family.


Are you hoping to get custody of your children from your W?



Nutty

[Jack_Three_Beans]

I think there is a chance for really good dialogue here, if words are choosen very carefully.

[SirPrizeMe]

So you are totally denying that the fact that your: temper. controlling behaviour and the fact that you have been scary towards your children not to mention the above was just your ‘humanness’ and could not possibly have contributed to your W feelings towards you changing over time?

NO! Never! I am not denying it. I admit it and accept it.

So why do you think her feelings for you changed?

Feelings change because they are feelings. They always change.

I think - this is just me - I think she had her indiscretion with my friend, and it felt invigorating - the drug of new love. I think she was deeply troubled by it but addicted to the high. Then she had 2 paths - come back to me and accept her role, do the work with me, or walk away from me. Somehow she could not bear to come back.

I also think, maybe, she is an alcoholic. Her boyfriend is truly an alcoholic. He drank all the time, for no reason. I'd go on bike rides with him at 7am (Remember, he was my friend), and he'd be drinking rum. He showed up drunk to pick up his kids at school once (2pm) and the school called the police on him. He's got multiple DUIs and I heard he was in jail for that. How can she go for this guy?? How? unless..... unless they share a common passion. And in fact, they drank every time they met - morning, noon and night. Her mother is an alcoholic. It would not be a great surprise if she, too, had a problem.

I tell you I wanted to go to counseling right away. I accepted my role and worked hard even in the beginning to fix what she pointed out was wrong with me. She commented specifically on how I treated the kids and I specifically worked on that in individual counseling, reading books. I renewed my relationship with my kids, and became ME, not my father. Essentially I had been emulating my father, and I recognized this and realized I had to be ME. And I am happier for it. She recognized this and was happy for me.

But other stuff - she couldn't tell me what else to work on.

you will alienate your wife further if you keep harassing [my emphasis] her friends and family.

I agree I will alienate my wife if I harass anyone. Who wants to live with someone like that?!? I don't believe I am harassing, but you do. I don't know why. Have you read what I wrote? Do you understand that THEY CALL ME ?

Are you hoping to get custody of your children from your W?

I believe what is best for the kids is to have two parents in a loving relationship. Failing that I believe what is next best is to have 2 parents. They need their mother, and they need me. Dang shame it can't be together. I want 50% custody. I never wanted to take my kids away from my wife, though she has expressed that fear to multiple people. She has strongly resisted a 50% custody arrangement.

My hope is that I can have a home near their schools, and my wife can have one also. They can stay with me some nights, and with their mother other nights. This seems like a distant 2nd place in the contest for best home arrangement for kids, but it is what I would like to see. In fact she and I were discussing this very topic in email when the protection order came in against me, stopping all conversation.

[Nutty Chick]

Ah, possibly. I want the community - my extended family - to know what is happening to us, to my nuclear family. My children need their support.

Also be careful even TALKING to friends/family about your situation. It can poison the well for later. You don't want everyone gossiping about yoru situation. You don't want throw your wife under the proverbial bus. Pick a friend, maybe one or two, who you can trust. Ask them to not speak of this to anyone. No gossip. Ask them to just listen to you, but it is IMPERATIVE that they do not talk to anyone else about your troubles. Seriously. Lots of people promise to keep secrets. This is really important that they do.

SirPrize.


I am not having a dig at you.

I really admire the way you can search your soul.

But there are several examples that you have written where you say one thing one day and something else the next.

No ones memory is 100%.

Not your W, not yours.

I get that you are really hurt. you work hard, you have done your best, you have never wanted to hurt your W. But the fact of the matter is she feels hurt.

She wont stop bashing you till you hear what she is saying.

You have your truth .. she has hers. My H and I came to that agreement a long time ago. We respect each others truth .. but we don't accept it; and that OK.

(having said that I agree you have to defend yourself with regards to serious allegations – but to the right people)

Nutty.