Help Me Act AS IF, Part 5

[SirPrizeMe]

Hey, LMG, in someone else's thread you wrote:

I am also torn about DBing or just trying to accept this and move on somehow.

Accepting his ambivalence *is* DBing, I think. That does not mean you have to change your mind about the marriage. You don't have to agree with him that it is no good. But you could accede to his wishes on separation.

[newnamenewlife]

SPM,
Will you marry me in a few years?

You're right--my H knows objectively that he's crazy to walk away from a woman like me. I think he feels inadequate and hates himself. I happen to think that fixating on a "spark" after 19 years is absurd and I also know we could reignite the spark if we both wanted to.

The fact is, I share a lot of my pain and hurt here, but I really am GALing like crazy and not putting pressure on H or having many expectations at all. We spend a lot of time together and share a bed, so it's hard to do it perfectly. I certainly never say anything about our R anymore.

What's odd right now is that H seems annoyed by me acting as if. I am mostly pleasant and friendly and I think that bugs him because it seems like I am in denial about the impending S. I am not standing in his way if he wants to leave, but I'm not going to get the ball rolling either. And we have kids, so life goes on until he decides to change our lives.

He is so averse to talking about the R, and so conflict-averse that I think he is in hell trying to make the S really happen. He is a huge procrastinator and I am usually the one who makes things happen--makes the call to the electrician, puts the check in the mailbox, etc. He's working fulltime now and comes home for dinner. An apt is not going to fall out of the sky. He has to actually go look at some and bite the bullet and fork over some rent--all those kinds of things are VERY hard for him. He often knows what needs to be done in any given situation, but then he doesn't follow through unless I take charge.

My C, who I saw yesterday alone, says it's hard to imagine him actually deciding "OK tonight's the night i'm going to tell the kids." He's thought a lot about what he will say to them--but I know he must be TERRIFIED to actually sit them down. He hates being the bad guy, hates hurting and disappointing people.

So it's limbo. I'm not standing in his way--though he knows I don't want to S at all from what I've said before. He is now lying in the bed he's made, having to face the things about himself that he most hates (the procrastination, etc.) and somehow that makes him angry at me--as if it's my fault.

I appreciate your insights--they are right on. I really have come a long way on the DB front, though I still have a way to go.

As for a dealbreaker, I don't know. An A would likely do it. Some days just the coldness and rejection from him feels like enough. It's complicated, also, by the fact that he has been the breadwinner for almost our entire M. So separating from H is not just an emotional thing, it's also scary for me financially.

[newnamenewlife]

SPM,
Will you marry me in a few years?

You're right--my H knows objectively that he's crazy to walk away from a woman like me. I think he feels inadequate and hates himself. I happen to think that fixating on a "spark" after 19 years is absurd and I also know we could reignite the spark if we both wanted to.

The fact is, I share a lot of my pain and hurt here, but I really am GALing like crazy and not putting pressure on H or having many expectations at all. We spend a lot of time together and share a bed, so it's hard to do it perfectly. I certainly never say anything about our R anymore.

What's odd right now is that H seems annoyed by me acting as if. I am mostly pleasant and friendly and I think that bugs him because it seems like I am in denial about the impending S. I am not standing in his way if he wants to leave, but I'm not going to get the ball rolling either. And we have kids, so life goes on until he decides to change our lives.

He is so averse to talking about the R, and so conflict-averse that I think he is in hell trying to make the S really happen. He is a huge procrastinator and I am usually the one who makes things happen--makes the call to the electrician, puts the check in the mailbox, etc. He's working fulltime now and comes home for dinner. An apt is not going to fall out of the sky. He has to actually go look at some and bite the bullet and fork over some rent--all those kinds of things are VERY hard for him. He often knows what needs to be done in any given situation, but then he doesn't follow through unless I take charge.

My C, who I saw yesterday alone, says it's hard to imagine him actually deciding "OK tonight's the night i'm going to tell the kids." He's thought a lot about what he will say to them--but I know he must be TERRIFIED to actually sit them down. He hates being the bad guy, hates hurting and disappointing people.

So it's limbo. I'm not standing in his way--though he knows I don't want to S at all from what I've said before. He is now lying in the bed he's made, having to face the things about himself that he most hates (the procrastination, etc.) and somehow that makes him angry at me--as if it's my fault.

I appreciate your insights--they are right on. I really have come a long way on the DB front, though I still have a way to go.

As for a dealbreaker, I don't know. An A would likely do it. Some days just the coldness and rejection from him feels like enough. It's complicated, also, by the fact that he has been the breadwinner for almost our entire M. So separating from H is not just an emotional thing, it's also scary for me financially.

[SirPrizeMe]

Wow. Yes, I will marry you!! This is such a surprise! I never thought you'd ask! Let's set a date! You pick the caterer and the florist, I'll pick the venue for the reception.

You sound like you have your head screwed on straight. And you are letting him do his thing, in his time. Great to hear you're GALing your butt off. It sucks to be you now, but you're solid, you can handle this adversity. You know what's at stake, you know what you want, you're level-headed, you can find your way through this, keeping in mind the future for you and your kids.

On the financial side - I totally understand that. The anxiety over finances can definitely affect the interaction between the two of you. It happened to me. The thing we absolutely did not need while we were in emotional crisis was a financial crisis. But we got it! It was, ahhh, not helpful in encouraging civility and lightheartedness in our relationship.

What do you think about seeing a financial advisor or attorney independently, now? To talk about steps to take to insure stability if things change for you suddenly. I am not talking about preparing for a divorce - for me I did not want to "prepare for a divorce" because I didn't want a divorce. But then it came anyway and I wasn't ready. It was like refusing to buy a coat and hat because I don't like storms. The storm will come or not, regardless of whether I have a coat...

If it would set your mind at ease, maybe worth thinking about. What could you be doing now? This might mean, getting a credit card in just your name. Maybe moving the utilities into your name. It might mean, re-positioning any investments you have to preserve liquidity, just-in-case. I don't know what it might mean for you, but a professional advisor might be worth it. Of if you have a close friend who knows finances. OR better, a friend of a friend, somebody once-removed from your immediate situation. Please don't think that I am suggesting that you push forward for a divorce. The analogy is awkward - but it is a little like Britain in WWII - they needed to prepare for a war that they didn't want. It might set your mind at ease a little, over the financial stuff.

And maybe insurance, too. Medical insurance for you and your kids. Find out what the options are. It's like a fire drill. Most people are never affected by a structure fire, but we do fire drills just in case. Everyone knows what they should be doing, where they should go. Or, like the training you get for how to repel an attacker. Think of it maybe like that? You probably will never be mugged, but you've thought through what you would do in the event you were approached by an aggressive guy. (kick him in the nuts, spray him with mace, whatever). It makes you feel more at ease, just to have a plan in case you need it.

Getting back to finances - the thing that worked for me - I spoke with friends, told them what was going on, all along. I told them of all the things that concerned me, and most things were just out of their control. But the one thing these friends could do was lend me money. I am the wage earner in my family, but with me out of the house, I am still paying for a house that I cannot live in. So right now I am depending on the kindness of my friends for my lifestyle. Maybe this is worth exploring for you. My family did the same thing - lent me money to take the kids on vacation, and so on.

I am an adult, worked for 20 years, good job, make good money, always independent. I hate having to borrow money. It makes me feel like a failure. But you know, I am in a special spot, and so it's ok for me to borrow from friends or family at this time. This is what friends and family are for. So I don't like to borrow, but it's just a short time. It doesn't sound like you need to borrow right now, but just talking with people, keeping your network informed, exploring the option - maybe that would be enough to set your mind at ease a little on the finances.

LMG, I hope you have a great day!

[newnamenewlife]

Seriously, I think there needs to be a companion site to this one for all of us who end up divorced-- a dating site! There are so many good people here who deserve happiness.

Yes, a friend of mine has given me the name of a lawyer who I have yet to call. I am procrastinating on that because it makes it all so real, but I know I should just do it. My H wants me to find a collaborative lawyer. The whole thing is so overwhelming, between the emotional and the financial, that I become paralyzed. It just doesn't seem possible that this man who I adored and respected and who treated me so well could now be doing this--but I guess we all feel that way.

[newnamenewlife]

I'm feeling horrible again. H said he thought we should see a mediator. He asked if I'd go if he set up an appt. I shrugged my shoulders and said maybe. Then I said: "Will you go to a different MC with me?" to which he said why? What do you want to talk about with a MC (we went to one for a while and H would talk about nothing but S).

At that point, we heard d11 stirring in her bed nearby and I said I didn't want to talk about it then.

Isn't a mediator for an actual D? H hasn't even made a plan to move out yet or tell the kids. I can't bring myself to cooperate and go to an appt if he arranges one. Is that DBing?

I just cannot accept this, I am so hurt and angry that H initially suggested a MC, said he was open and fully committed to working on our R and then refused to do anything. Why should I go to a mediator and cooperate with him? Why is his reality--that he needs to do this--more important than mine, which was to save the M?

Again, there is not standing in his way, and then there is actually getting on board with the S and going to mediators. Isn't it kind of chickening out on his part by trying to get someone else to help him S?

[ddstartingover]

Wow, LMG --- we are so much in the same place! I wonder all the same things about my H............This morning he started talking about a payment that the law firm was to receive today and plans for the money. All I could do is listen and nod my head----------------it's something we should be celebrating, but all I can think is that it means nothing to me without our marriage.................

He hasn't said (or e-mailed) anything to me since our appt. on Monday. He hugged me on the way out this morning---first time in 2 weeks. This will really sound sad----last night I was in bed and he came in to tell me he was going back to the office for a bit. He touched my foot! He actually touched me. If only he knew----and could appreciate what such a small gesture meant................If only I could have that second chance I want so desperately..............

[SirPrizeMe]

LMG, I know how you feel, girl.

You cannot accept it. You're hurt and angry, and you've every right. It's a rip off. you said "for better or worse, in good times and in bad" and this is the bad times, and he is walking.

Rip. Off.

NO, it is not DBing to refuse to discuss mediation. I know it stinks but you're here. Dissuading him is not going to happen. What you can do now is show him your best self. Your best. No breakdowns. No pleading. No avoiding. Face the situation head on.

This does not mean you have to like it. Nor does it mean you have to assist, to move everything along. But seems to me you cannot avoid it completely.

OK, time to stop and take stock.
What do you want? what are your goals?
and How can you get from here to there?

I suppose your goal is to stave off, delay, defer, or avoid a divorce. Good for you. Saying yes to beginning mediation does not mean saying yes to divorce.

You can apply your goals within your mediation process. How?

First, you're going to educate yourself on mediation - what it is, how it works, why people do it, when it "works", when it "does not work", what a successful mediation looks like, what a failed mediation looks like, how much it costs, how long it takes, what the alternatives are, and so on. Get some books, go to the library. ask around.

This research will take some time, and it will unavoidably, regrettably delay the initial appointment for a while. Then you might have a conflict with a play at school, then maybe another conflict. You will earnestly look for a time to meet the mediator but it will difficult to find a time. All the while you are looking good, smiling, whistling, DBing.

Then you're gonna go to his appointment. you will meet this person. With your knowledge, you will ask informed questions about the style of the mediator, how it works and so on. You will come away with some concerns about this person, honest concerns. You will share your concerns calmly with your H, tell him you don't quite feel comfortable with this person, would he mind if you set up some interviews with other mediators? This is all very fast, you'll say. We should be thoughtful here.

Then, you will take charge. You take charge of the mediation, and you control the pace. Controlling the pace means you can make it go slow or fast. You choose. In the beginning taking charge means that you suggest to your sweetheart that you will begin selecting mediators for interviews. How long can the two of you take interviewing mediators? I'll bet there are hundreds in your town to choose from! I'll bet they all have different styles. Interviewing one per week - it could take a long time to get through a list at that rate. I'll bet it will take some time to find one you feel like you can trust, you can work with, in such a delicate matter. You may want to find one that is associated to a church, or one that shares your view of divorce. One that believes in marriage and that mediation or separation is a last resort. One that believes in patience. One that supports your goal of delay, defer, avoid. You should be up-front about your goals when you interview, but also you should ask for their discretion (don't want to show cards to hubby). Some of them will accept this condition, some will not.

Some of the interviews will cost you money. Some will not. You will pay the money, after talking to your H about the cost of interviewing these people. Don't be afraid to pay the money. One goal might be to show him that even mediation is going to cost a lot of money, if you have to pay even to interview these people. You won't say that of course, you will let him draw his own conclusion.

Ok, that takes you 4 weeks, 6 weeks, maybe more. Now you have a mediator.

At the same time you have, for yourself, done a similar interview process with attorneys. If this is hard then you will bring your best friend or sister along with you for support during these interviews. And you will pick an attorney and discuss your options. You will be up front and tell your attorney (a) that you don't want a divorce, and (b) that you don't want to be disadvantaged if you do get a divorce.

You will begin socking away some money, enough to put a retainer together, like $2000 or so, maybe $4000. Maybe you borrow the money. Maybe you have a credit card you can give to your attorney.

And then you can brainstorm with this attorney. You'll need one that is familiar with mediation and in favor of it. You'll maybe interview a number of attorneys, too. (When I did this I had to take anti-nausea drugs so I wouldn't puke in their offices.)

You can do some research and find out what a divorce typically costs. You can decide what you want to do with that information. You can share it directly. Or maybe indirectly - leave a printout lying around. Maybe there are other options.

You can seek counsel with your pastor, or with other marriage support groups. I have a faith-based marriage counselor in my area who knew mediators that were on the side of marriage.

I know all of this is horrible. It is like a worst case scenario and you do not want to go here. LMG, I hear ya. I know you. You and I think alike. BUT, you are not in full control here over whether your divorce will happen or not. Whether it is pleasant or not, you need to prepare for this. It's like life insurance - it does not insure any life at all. It is for the horrible and undesired eventuality that you die early. You don't like to think about it, but you get life insurance for yourself anyway, because you want to take care of your kids financially if you can't be around them.

And in the same way you'll go to an attorney, even if it is a worst-case scenario, because you need to take care of yourself if your marriage is no longer around. This is for you.

The next thing you are gonna do is call the DB coaches. You'll spend the $400 on the 3 sessions. Talk to some of the good people on the phone. They are very helpful. This is expensive but is worth it as an investment in your future. Totally worth it. You can brainstorm with these people too. If you had to spend $1200 to get a chance to save your marriage, would you? I would, in a heartbeat. And so you won't be afraid to spend the money.

The next thing you'll do is get yourself a massage or a facial or a manicure or a spa weekend. Because you deserve it. And because you need your strength and power to continue on the path.

And as you go, you will see other paths open up to you. Your mediator may suggest Retrouvaille as a mechanism to learn to be civil to each other during the mediation process. Many couples go to Retrouvaille intent on separation and divorce, with the goal of learning how to communicate better during the divorce process. But once they communicate better, they find they don't want the divorce. But if you go this route you will not tip your cards. You will suggest Retrouvaille only as a way to learn better communicate skills to facilitate the divorce.

Ok, I just told you a bunch of stuff, the whole plan rests on these kinds of ideas:
- accept his wishes as peacefully as you can
- control what you can
- minimize conflict - even over things like "should we go to mediation or not?"
- agree with everything you can
- try to manage the pace of things
- do not say the word divorce - do not get comfortable with the term
- keep yourself strong
- protect yourself


But of course this is just a suggestion. I am no expert. I seriously suggest you talk to the DB coaches first - they are pros.

[newnamenewlife]

I wish I'd read your post, SPM, before I blew it, because I did, again, big-time.

I cried and cried about how sad I am, how I feel like I failed, how much he is hurting me, how I don't want to do this to our family. We go for weeks and weeks without discussing our R at all and then when we finally do, all my built up feelings come out. I told him I knew I couldn't stop him, that I wasn't standing in his way exactly, but that it's also really hard for me to assist in him leaving.

We sat there with each other for over 2 hours, him repeating how he can't stay with me just to avoid hurting my feelings, how he needs to find happiness, how I deserve to be happy too, blah, blah. Just because he's unhappy now doesn't mean he wasn't happy with me before. Now he's a different person, not the same--is that true? I feel like I've changed as I've grown up, but that I am still fundamentally the same.

We also talked a little about his plans and of course he has none. I said (again) that if he feels such an urgent need to leave, he should go live with his parents. But he won't do that because it would be hard to see the girls. Then we talked about how D11 is going to sleepaway camp for the first time in July and then to a new school in Sept that's far away (1 hour commute) and very rigorous. So she is facing a lot of unknowns and I think ideally H should stay here until she is settled in her new school so that it's familiar and somewhat grounding. But having to pretend everything's OK is also stressful, so maybe he should move out in June. I don't know.

I gotta go to sleep now.

[SirPrizeMe]

No problem, LMG, don't sweat it.
You can recover from this,
and you can do it today.

Just go up to him and say - breath of fresh air - I thought more about what we talked about, and you know - I'm making it all too heavy. I see what you want and I want to make sure you are happy. I want you to be happy.

no crying, no guilt trip, no "don't do this to our family." You can do this. You can do this. You can do this.

Your girls, they sound very special. Sleepaway camp is a big step, I remember my boys doing that the first time and they LOVED it. Listen... you've got to be there for them during this time. They need you. You've got to be solid, whether your husband is there for you or not. You can do this.

What I want you to do next time you feel like letting go of all your feelings with hubby - contact this group, call us, call me, let it all out on us. Not on him. He's not ready for this. Your feelings are honest and real and true, but he's not ready for all of it, so you call on your friends here instead, or call your sister or your best bud, call anyone but do not lay it on hubby, can you do that?

If he wants to go in June, you agree to it, girl, you hear me? Don't fight him. And you will handle the sleepaway camp and you'll handle the new school without him just fine. You don't need him. You want him, and I respect you for that, but you are a strong and capable person on your own and you can handle this, and you will handle his tantrum and his lack of strength.

You are sad, I know it, and no one here blames you for that. We understand. Of course you're sad. It's stupid, what he's doing. A darn shame. Senseless. You have a beautiful thing, your family, right there in your own house and he doesn't see it. But don't lay it all on him just now, hmmm? not now. Lay it on us - not him.

What you have is an adult teenager. Teenagers - You cannot talk sense into them. They will make decisions that seem really dumb, and there is nothing, NOTHING you can do, except watch. They may fall, and you will watch. only watch.

You don't need to pretend everything is ok. We know it stinks. your friends and family - you can talk to a couple trusted advisors - they will know it stinks. But then, ... then you will get back to living and you will deal with the situation and you will stand tall for your girls, and you will do it because you are strong despite what your husband is doing to you.

And in the end your girls will recognize in you the strength of a capable woman and they themselves will gain self respect, they themselves will see that they have power in themselves, like you. They will see what you are doing and how you are handling yourself, even if they don't know the details, yet they will see, they will sense your virtue and strength and will be drawn to it. and they will know that the power you show is within them, too, and this is invaluable. This is what carries you forward, knowing that what you do now matters to your daughters, impresses your daughters deeply. You can do this, and you will do this. For you and for them. You can handle it. You will handle it. Let him have his thing, his moment of searching, his confusion, but you are the rock, you are the solid one, you are not confused, you know what you want, you are holding your family together, but you will not falter if your husband leaves you. you will stand.

and, girl, get y'sef a pedicure.