[quote=runningoutoftime] Something I had once read pointed out that kids subconsciously see themselves as a "product" of both parents, and if one parent is talking about how "bad" another parent is they tend to take this as something bad in themselves. Also, I think it destroys attachment. For example, if you can't trust mom or dad (who previously had been like a superhero) who can you trust? With trust broken early in life many often grow up with trust issues.
I agree about the talking about how a parent is bad that that tend to think of this as something bad in themselves (I've read that too. And I try not to say anything negative about my H and in fact don't really talk about him that much at all. But I think the kids lose trust in their parent anyway sometimes when they are a WAS and emotionally check out by being out with OP or texting them when they are home or breaking promises (my H did all of that for the first several months of his PA).
I think (well I hope anyway) that kids are ok if they have one good parent that is stable, trustworthy, and there for them. (I was raised by a really loving & dependable single dad so another reason why I think that). Karen
Please help me on this one. This discussion is very interesting.
I hear alot about not demonizing the other parent.
I also realize it's important the kids know it's not their fault.
I understand that there's alot riding regarding trust.
Is there a place, however, for simply telling the truth?
Divorce is proven to hurt the children, all the studies show it. They will have difficulty making commitments as adults. Their sense of security is being challenged. In our situations, most of us don't want the divorce and have been working hard at improving ourselves, re-attracting our spouses and seeking a stable home for our kids. It's our spouses who don't want that. In most of these cases they are having affairs and want out of the marriage. Our spouses are quite content to inflict this on our children so they can puruse their personal bliss. They have, indeed, violated the trust of our children and our trust as well. They aren't simply cheating, they are breaking up a family.
How does it help to pretend that both parents are equal partners in desiring the divorce? So that kids can lose trust in both their parents?
We are, in effect, saying:
"Mom and Dad can't get along anymore (partially true, but misleading/it suggests equal responsibilty.)
"We worked at it (not true).
"We aren't going to live together anymore (true).
"None of this is your fault (true)."
It's leaving a lot out, it's, in my opinion, unfairly glossing over the WAS's red-hot pursuit of the divorce.
What about the moral universe of the children? Do we rip it to shreds in order to protect the WAS? My kids were raised in a religious home. There are things we told them about marriage, sexuality, adultery and divorce. We have give them moral absolutes. I personally can't look my kids in the eye and tell them, "Mom and Dad just can't get along.". I am modeling to them that it is acceptable for two adults with children to punt their marriage and that I am breaking my marriage vow, when, in fact, I'm not.
I just don't think I can raise my kids in an "I'm OK, you're OK, divorce is OK, everythings's OK" world.
Karen, in your situation, it's kind of obvious. There's nothing to hide: your husband has a girlfriend, is leaving you and wants to end the marriage. How can the kids not see that? Are we supposed to pretend it's OK?
It's fine to say that the WAS still loves them. But what's wrong with saying, "WAS isn't happy anymore and is leaving me. They are having an affair. I still love WAS, and so should you, but I think what they are doing is wrong. We can still love people who make terrible mistakes."
Olive, what do you plan to tell your daughter about her Stepmom and her Dad when she's old enough to understand the 10 commandments?
How does it help to pretend that both parents are equal partners in desiring the divorce? So that kids can lose trust in both their parents?
We are, in effect, saying:
"Mom and Dad can't get along anymore (partially true, but misleading/it suggests equal responsibilty.)
"We worked at it (not true).
"We aren't going to live together anymore (true).
"None of this is your fault (true)."
It's leaving a lot out, it's, in my opinion, unfairly glossing over the WAS's red-hot pursuit of the divorce.
*****
It's fine to say that the WAS still loves them. But what's wrong with saying, "WAS isn't happy anymore and is leaving me. They are having an affair. I still love WAS, and so should you, but I think what they are doing is wrong. We can still love people who make terrible mistakes."
Theoden
Well, at least in my case obviously the kids are aware it's Dad that wants out and not me. I cried for about a month when I found out all that stuff! So the kids know. And I think H has told them he doesn't love me anymore as that is what my D8 says when asked about it all "Dad doesn't love Mommy anymore". I've read here that they think at about 14 or so you can tell them about the affair, but of course my H was very open about it so even my D8 is very aware which I think she is too young!!!
On my C's advice I have talked to them about how it isn't their fault (which they do realize since their Dad is so obviously crazy lately) and the moral implications: most dads don't have girlfriends and I hope they will not do that when they grow up.
I do believe how the parents act will strongly affect our children in the future. I mean my dad was a total caretaker type and I turned out to be a caretaker focused on my kids (trying to work on that though) and my H has followed the path of his parents: divorcing after 18 years, his mom had an affair or affairs and he is having one. We both are kind of repeating the pattern we saw when we were kids.
I have to hope that my kids will follow my role model instead of their dad's and see that I am happier and doing the right thing, being a good parent, etc. But maybe they won't which is sad!
By not demonizing the parent I mean making not calling them ugly hateful names. There's no need to make the situation worse. You can still be honest and truthful without demonizing the WAS.
For example, I told my kids that their father was unhappy and wanted a divorce. That's not demonizing him, and it was telling the truth. I never told them D was okay. It's not okay and I would be very disappointed if they made this type of choice. I never told them it would be easy, or that life would be great. I told them it would be difficult and it would be hard, D isn't a good thing, but I loved them, and that I'd always be there for them, and we'd do our best with a difficult situation. Life can be hard, people sometimes make difficult and selfish choices. But we can't change that, and in spite of it we have to do what's best. I told them their father loves them. He truly does, but I pointed out he was unhappy with me and wanted a change in his life. This was not a lie....
However, my kids are older. They knew what was going on. They knew about OW and understood more than my words and actions. And because they are older I could share with them my experiences with step-parents and experiences I've heard about (the good, the bad, the games, control jealousy, etc...).
Regardless of all this, I do think it's a good idea to read books on this and get an idea of what it the healthiest way to do this with kids. I'm sure it isn't lying and glossing over things, but taking the anger and crazy emotions out and reassuring them that they still have your love and stability to depend on.
There is no arriving, ever. It is all a continual becoming.
I kind of agree with everyone.. I will no longer cover it up. All of my closest friends know about the A, too. If anyone asks, I will tell them that stbxh wanted this D. It was HIS choice. I just don't want to be the bitter xw either... Delicate balance, I guess.
As for D4, it is very hard since.. well.. she's four! I have told her bits and pieces.. Such as she will be living part of the time with Mommy and part of the time with Daddy. Honestly, she seems pretty secure in her R with me. I know this because she goes off with Dad on his weekends and could care less about me. She KNOWS that I will always be here for her when she returns... I just keep telling her that she doesn't need to miss me cuz I'm always here for her..even when I can't see her..
"Olive, what do you plan to tell your daughter about her Stepmom and her Dad when she's old enough to understand the 10 commandments?"
Good question Theo. I am really struggling with this anyway. He makes me so angry when he says that he's seeking God's guidance. I want to get up on my soapbox but know that I would just be wasting words.. Luckily, I have some time to figure this one out.
My dear sweet d9 said to me when we were talking about was going on and the D, if she could change her name to my maiden name since I use both. Out of the mouths of babes! kat
Me-53(and learning!) S24, S21, D18, D17 Just keep swimming, Just keep swimming. Dory
Telling the truth is important. I will not say anything to my kids, esp. something so important, lies that I don't consider truthful. Having sais that, what is true to you and what is true to the other party is different. You can tell your kids that you are not breaking the marriage vow. You still believe in it. That is true. However, your wife believes that it is OK to break the marriage vow under her "special circumstances". She is an adult and she makes her own choices. While you may not agree, you respect her choices. If she is very religious, from her standpoint, it is also a very difficult choice because she knows she is breaking the vow. She must be very unhappy that she is willing to do this. (or whatever twisted reasons that WAS always come up with). As human, we may not be as willingly forgive as God, but we are always trying to be more understanding, more embracing, more forgiving. I would try to phrase my wordings to the kids based on loving wordings, rather than right/wrong wordings.
I always tell my kids, "You are a kid now so I am making choices for you. However, you have to learn to make your own choices because ultimately you are responsible for what you do, not me. You are going to school and learning everyday what is right and what is wrong so you can make good choices. If you make a mistake, you learn from it so you won't make the same mistake again."
LO, I think your D4 is very secure. My kids are too. She will be OK as you will always be there. I once complained to the teacher that my kids never hangs on to me, just "bye mom" and they are off (to grandparents, friends) and never ask for me for hours. The teacher said, "that's because they know you are always there. they are secure". Good job.
Ok.. Get this..Count down to D-day and stbxh has informed me that he will NOT be moving into ow's house. Not sure why. That's where he wants to live. I'm thinking it must have something to do with her alimony from her xh.
So the craziness is that because he doesn't have $$$ to live elsewhere, he insists that he has every right to stay in our beautiful home until it sells (I sure hate the current real estate market!!). He stated that if he was paying half, then he was entitled to live here - even after we're D'd... SH!T.. How can I live with that??? WTH??? What am I going to do???????!!!!!!
not to keep your hope up. But any chance that the fog is lifting? did he say why? (I assume you are only guessing about the alimony part). Boy, in this case, I would rather that the house sells fast so you can move on (or so that he can "hit bottom" if that's the bottom). The amount of work your H tries to "have both world" is really interesting.
No advice, just lots of hugs and best wishes for what you will have to deal with later.
Karen
