Where do...I...go from here?

[tpaschal]

Beware----really long post ahead. Responses to some questions/comments, but also some journaling and thoughts that just needed to come out.

Tpaschal,

Now that I look back, I can see that H probably started going through some of his disillusionment as long as 5 or 6 years ago. ... I told him I thought he was already terrific, so why so much searching?

Could he have at that time thought that he was trying to grow and further his Personal Development and you were not? Perhaps he saw you as staying in the same place and that he was surpassing you--not because of his actions, but because of your comments and inactions.

Yes, this is possible. He always wanted me to be a stay-at-home mom for our kids, but he did seem to start "looking down" on that. Asking "what do you do all day!" when things around the house weren't exactly to his liking, but also telling me how smart I was and with my memory and verbal skills (and arguing skills) that I should go to law school. But I always said that I thought that would be something for later. I wanted to be home with the kids when they were little---at least until the youngest was through Kinder. (She's in K now, he left when she was 4 yrs. old in Pre-K.)

It wasn't something that came up often, though. There were a few times when we had some financial problems and I offered to get a job, and he didn't want that. So I was confused. He would praise me on one hand, criticize my house-keeping/homemaking skills on the other, but then say he would prefer I didn't work when I did talk about going back to work.

He also talked about his feelings of insecurity and inferiority with other doctors. I already knew of these feelings, and had always done my best to help him examine them, to see if there was any merit, but mostly just to offer support and reassure him that his feelings of insecurity and inferiority were unmerited. I tried to build him up. Guess I didn't do a great job of it.

It is rather ironic, but in many ways what you were doing was invalidating the feelings he had for himself. It was a good thing to believe in him and try to build him up. But doing this by trying to show him that his feelings were without merit backfired. To him that meant you didn't get it and were not listening to him. He wanted to be built up and he wanted help finding his strength, but support and reassurance without tangible structure are meaningless. He felt like a house of cards and you tried to show him how wonderful a house of cards he was. Helping someone find strength is an active endeavour.
A person feels important when others listen without dismissing their feelings. It is wonderful that you thought he was great, and I believe that form some belief in Self starts when others believe in you. But eventually that is not enough. Why? Maybe it was because you didn't back up your belief in concrete ways that he could understand. As his wife, perhaps you became a mother figure, and Mom is supposed to love you, no matter what.

I get what you are saying here, and probably some of this did happen. However, (and it's hard to relate entire conversations that took place over a several year period, so I just touched on it) I did try to help him in concrete ways. We talked about what qualities he admired in the docs (mainly one---his partner) that he felt inferior to, and whether or not those qualities would make a better doctor. H is very talkative and outgoing with people he knows well, but is shy and rather introverted until he does know you well---which can come across as being boring or cold or stiff. He also has a big problem remembering names, which is NOT a good thing for a doctor with lots of patients in the community! Partner, on the other hand, is not a real "deep" person, but comes across as being very charming and considerate and thoughtful because of his personality and mannerisms and ability to remember names quickly. H asked for my help and opinions, so he and I brainstormed on how he could implement some changes without being fake, how he could remember names better, and he and I did some role playing. It did seem to help.

But the area where I can see him feeling like I was acting like his "Mom" was in the area of personal friendships/relationships.

Even though I had several female friends, and some of the friendships were very longstanding ones, I always considered H my best friend. I think now a large part of the problem was that because of his shyness or insecurities or whatever it was that prevented him from making close male friendships, he may have felt like I was his ONLY friend.

Of course there was a time when we only needed each other. The honeymoon phase. But when we graduated from college and started branching out (him in med. school and me teaching, and then moving to a suburb to start his practice while I became s-a-h mom) I made a lot of close female friends, but he still had only me.

H did make one very close Friend in med. school, and when the Friend got engaged and then married we did do couple things with them and even went on a few vacations together, but while H just had this one guy Friend, guy Friend had two brothers of his own and a large network of other friends. I saw my H doing/saying things that were kind of off-putting (too eager? trying too hard?) and tried to tell him. I don't think he appreciated that. And looking back, I know I should have stayed out of it. Anyway, when we moved to one suburb to start H's practice, Friend moved to another suburb an hour and 1/2 away, and with busy practices and having kids and getting busy with family life, they drifted apart. I think H was very hurt by that, but it was his doing as much or more than Friend's. (Not returning phone calls, etc.)

I tried to encourage him to get to know some of the other docs better, and we did make some good couple friends among the other docs and with some of our neighbors, but these couple friendships were mainly due to the connections between the wives. He didn't seem to know how to make strong male friendships on his own, and I probably offered too many suggestions. Maybe that made him feel more insecure?

H made one male single friend in 2005 (through me---my best g-friend and her husband know this Guy and we met this Guy through her) and we all hit it off right away. When H dropped his bomb and was planning to move out, H told Guy that he didn't have any friendships on his own, that all his friends were because of me. H also told Guy he felt controlled by me, and admitted an "attraction" to another woman.

Guy was great in his response---caring and supportive, but pointing out that after driving the same car for a while, a new shiny sports car might seem like fun, but would it get great gas mileage? Attention from someone new had to be flattering and feel great, but was a relationship with her the answer to H's problems? Was it the stuff of real, sustainable love?

Advised H that if he felt controlled by me, then H was a part of that dynamic. If H changed his actions/reactions, then I would be forced to change, too, and the relationship could change and improve and become what H wanted. Guy advised H to go to counseling to work these things out before jumping into a new R.

Guy also told H that he had a lot of great friend qualities, and if H didn't feel he had any friends of his own, that was something H could change easily, without it having anything to do with his marriage. Again advised H to get some counseling to help him address those feelings and issues.

Of course, H thanked him for his letter, said he would get back to him, then didn't contact him again for more than a year. H wants to get back in contact with Guy now, but Guy has lots going on in his own life, is disappointed by how H has treated me and the kids the past year, and really doesn't have time to deal with H. Sad, but I can't control any of that. My best g-friend also says that she thinks one reason H wants to get back in touch with Guy is to "use" him in a way. Guy has a rarely used apt. in NYC where H and I have stayed before, and my best g-friend thinks H wants to impress OW by having friends who will invite them to come stay in NYC. I do think that's very possible. Best g-friend said, "H doesn't get MY friends in your divorce!!" Kinda funny, in a very sad way. I encouraged Guy to contact H if he feels like it, but said I understood his own stuff has to take priority.

But in other ways he seems VERY detached. Otherwise, how could a father go three solid weeks without speaking to or laying eyes on his three children who only live 10 minutes away?

That's not how Detached works. Detached is when your emotions are not tied to his and vice versa. Avoidance of the children doesn't indicate Detachment. Selfishness, perhaps, confusion, certainly. We do not know his emotional context, but avoiding the children and you may be perfectly sensible within his emotional context.
Perhaps he fears what he would do in their presence.
Perhaps it hurts him more than he can bear when he sees them.
Perhaps he is simply so ashamed that he cannot bring himself to face them.
You don't know. But none of those possibilities have anything to do with being Detached, rather they are completely bound.

And he seems very detached from me now. The C said that in observing his body language in our joint C session 2 weeks ago, H seemed contemptuous of me.

Contempt is not an emotion of Detachment!

I guess detachment is the wrong word. I guess "emotionally unavailable" is more what I meant. Or "emotionally dead." He claims to be happy with OW and his happy new life, but he doesn't seem happy at all. When he is around me and kids, he seems so.....distant. Like we're furniture or household fixtures or part of the scenery, not actual human beings with feelings.

That is, until he gets angry! Then he yells and spews and threatens and uses the kids to manipulate me while accusing me of turning the kids against him, etc., etc., etc.

Can you explain what you mean by "bound?"

Is he telling you or trying to convince himself or make it real? Of course he insists on telling you she's a good person! He must be really awful if he were carrying on with a person he thinks is bad. But he does think he's awful and he thinks she is what he deserves. And yet he's not going to go around admitting he is awful and therefore he's chosen someone just as awful. She represents the level of his own emotional development and he is able to project easily onto her.

Well, she definitely represents his current level of emotional development (he's regressed to young teenage years, IMO, about 14 or 15?), but I don't know if I agree that he really thinks she's awful or thinks of himself as awful.

Hard to tell, as I of course am not inside his head. I do know that before he moved out, he called her a stupid kid who did't know what the hell she was doing, and when I asked what he thought her expectations were for their relationship, he didn't really care that much. I pressed him on it, and he said he imagined that she saw them married with kids within a couple of years. I asked him if that's what he wanted, and he didn't know. Seemed not to be that interested. But now it looks like that's exactly where they are heading. She does seem to be calling all the shots now.

Right after he first moved out, still before I found DB'ing, I called her a bimbo or a wh*re or something and he kind of half-heartedly defended her, and I said, "Come on, let's be real here. Is this what you want for YOUR daughter? Your daughter is almost 13 years old (at the time, she's 14 now). Is this what you want for her in 7 years? To drop out of college and answer telephones for a living, and then start an affair with a 20 year older married man? To start screwing him while he's still living and sleeping with his wife, and then move in with him when he finally does leave his wife and 3 kids, even though he's still married? Is that what you want for your daughter? Would that be okay with you? What would you say to her if she did that? I can't imagine being "okay" with it if our daughter did that. I can't imagine you being okay with it. I can't imagine any parent wanting this life for their 21 year old daughter." He was very, very quiet. Didn't say anything at all.

But I don't know what to think anymore. I didn't know her that well when she worked in H's office, and as I've mentioned before I always thought she was a big flirt, but I did think she was a nice person. Maybe she is. Maybe she really is just the most wonderful, loving, giving person in the world who just had the misfortune to fall in love with the wrong man. I don't really believe that, but what if it's true? It seems that H is completely under her spell, and she is completely in control now, to the point of moving her father in with them (for a time, at least.) I wonder how the man I loved could be acting like this, or involved with anyone who would act this way, no matter how "nice" she is, and it doesn't compute.

I know Cinderellaman and Mrs. H have been struggling with this recently---what if H really is happier with OW, and will go on to have a happy, complete, and full life with OW? If it's true, then shouldn't we forget about DB'ing and Standing, and start exploring other options for ourselves? And I don't just mean dating, but that is a large part of it. Not jumping into a relationship that I'm not ready for, but making the mental adjustment in my head that H will never be my partner again, so it's okay to start thinking about someone else in that eventual role.

When he tells the C that he's realized he needs a different type of person in a relationship (having said this to me before, he knows I know that he's referring to all my "character flaws...

Is he really? Yes, consciously it may be your flaw that he is referencing. But what is the true reference?

He does need a different type of person. Fortunately he's got one and it is you. You are no longer the person he married. You have grown and matured. You are different. But perhaps your development and his were not in synch and he is at a loss.

Great, cause I'm at a loss, too. Wondering if we'll ever "synch up" again. I'm trying to "grow forward" and change for the better, and he's regressing into a selfish adolescent who sometimes throw temper tantrums like a toddler. Well, that's what it feels like I'm dealing with, anyway. And I've already got a hormonal 14 year old daughter to deal with! I don't need another temperamental teenager!

One of your goals is to learn what to Do as a Stander? What does Paving A Safe Way mean, what actions does it entail?
Those may differ for each of us. The answers are within YOU.
The goal or result of the actions you take needs to be Personal Growth and Development, this will lead you to the answers within yourself. It is about Self focus and leads to your other goal of marital reconciliation. It does not guarantee it, but without it, reconciliation cannot work. You need to find and define who you are and since you are ever-changing, you will always be searching, finding and redefining. Life is the journey.
External change facilitates internal change. So what actions can you take to realize your Self goal?

I feel like I'm getting better on focusing on my Self, but knowing where I want to be and figuring out how to get there is going veeeeerrry slowly. But I think that's okay for now. I don't want to get stuck, but I want to consider each step and each change slowly and carefully before making it, so I know I'm doing it for the right reasons.

I am addressing each of the four areas you mentioned, but it's the practical minutia of the divorce that I'm struggling with. Figuring out how to Pave a Safe Way but not giving up or giving in on things that will be REALLY important for my and the kids' future if he chooses to never return is very tough.

For instance, H wants the house on the market...right now...today...IMMEDIATELY! That's great, but what's the plan for me and the kids once it does sell? What if it were to sell really quickly? Where would we live? Who gets the profits from the sale and how much? Will H help buy me a house, as I have no income and will not qualify for ANYTHING right now? Will this be done before the final divorce? If not, how can I have it put in the divorce decree? Etc., etc. All of this p*sses him off to no end. He sees it as me trying to drag things out, and uses it to fuel his anger against me, while I see these questions and concerns as being practical and reasonable things to settle NOW in order to take care of me and the kids.

As for H, he is back to anger stage. If I don't give in to his every request, he spews.

That is not the Anger STAGE, its just Anger. The Anger Stage of MLC is about MLC. He is simply Angry.

Can you explain what you mean by this? What's the difference? I have read the Six Stages of MLC posted (I think) by HeartsBlessing, but I haven't read it in a while. I know my H is in Replay right now, but why is he so angry at me all the time? Just for standing in the way of what he thinks he wants right now?

Thanks for all your insights and advice.