For the guys with kids and a WAW

[lodo]

I personally wouldn't expose an A to the children. No matter what happens she'll still be their mother and will have a relationship with them independent of what's happened between the two of you. Exposing the A to them is dragging them into the middle of a conversation they shouldn't be a part of, especially because of their ages. IMO.

lodo

[rop]

h4h,
my first wife (10 yeas ago - no kids) had an A and WA, we had many friends in common and when I exposed her to the friends it really took a toll on her - the pressure from them and the shame was too much. After a few month she came back crying she wanted me back - but for me was too late - I have to say that even after many years the friends we had in common lost a lot of respect for her because of this, even her best friend distanced her.... Said that I don't think is a good idea to expose the A the kids -
My parents are divorced (runs in the family), my mom had a "summer affair" while in vacation with friends, my dad found out and he moved out, he tried then to come back but at that point was my mom who didn't want him anymore.
The first thing he did was to tell me about the affair, I was 14, - he thought I would take his side - I didn't, I somehow justified my mom - kids don't think like adults, I could never ever got against my mom, what I did I detached from my parents, specially my father that I found MORE responsible for what happened, I thought he "pushed her" to do that. He spent 20 years of hard work to reconnect with me - calling me every day - only now I understand what he went through. I am sorry for him... and for me

[CBK]

I have been getting a lot of advice on if I should expose the A to anybody. My kids are 19 and 20. Lots of thoughts on this - some say expose, others say no. I have decided not to expose the A to anybody and have promised WAW that I would not. Sometimes it is tough as I think if I did expose it, she would stop talking to OM, but at the same time, I may drive her to the OM. Even though my kids are young adults, they should not have to be dragged into this. Also, I have my share of blame - the A is a symptom of a something wrong - ours was going bad for the past 4 years and I feel just as responsible for the A in some ways.

So my advice, no, I would not expose the A to anybody - only a couple of select, very close friends and our therapists know. I plan on keeping it this way.

Peace,

CBK

[Puppy Dog Tails]

H4Her,

I haven't read your own sitch, but I am generally in favor of exposure to ADULT children, OM/OW's spouse, the wayward wife's parents and siblings, and your own parents and siblings. I also exposed my wife's affair to their employer, since their affair was happening at their workplace.

Most of your kids are too young, in my opinion, although I wouldn't LIE to them if you're ever asked a direct question. Your oldest child is a tougher call. I ultimately decided to tell my son, then 14, when he asked me why his mother and I were fighting all the time, and I suspected he had seen and heard things and must have been horribly sad and confused. So I told him in an age-appropriate way, "Mom has a boyfriend, and married people shouldn't have boyfriends and girlfriends. It's not right, God doesn't like it, and it makes me very angry. I've asked her to stop, and she won't, and that's what we keep fighting about. I'm sorry I had to tell you, but I will never lie to you, son. This is NOT your fault! If you want to talk about it, we can, or we don't have to. But I wanted you to know the truth, and I will never, EVER lie to you. OK?"

It was the hardest, saddest thing I had to do throughout my whole ordeal.

I also exposed to our two adult daughters, then 18 and 20. All three of those children already knew, btw -- something to consider.

Exposure can be a very effective tool in breaking up affairs and restoring marriages, and many counselors and books advocate it. Each person has to weigh all of the information, however, and do what's best for them. In my own situation, my wife told me afterward that the pressure from her mother and one of our daughters, in particular, played a great role in her ultimately deciding to end her affair. And while she was livid with me at the time, she also told me she loved me and understood that I was only fighting for our marriage.

Puppy

[Puppy Dog Tails]

H4H,

I just wanted to know that I spent the past 90 minutes reading every single post on your thread, and catching up on your sitch. I awoke at 6am this morning, unable to sleep for some reason, and so I came on the board.

I was riveted to your sitch. We could be the same guy. I handled my wife's affair almost exactly as you are handling yours, except that I exposed to the people I mentioned in my post above. But the way I stepped up and became the best dad I could possibly be, while still showing love to my wife (primarily thru acts of kindness), no ILYs, etc -- it was eerily similar, like I was reading my own journal from last summer.

I too am a Christian.

This is going to sound hokey, but I believe that God awoke me this morning and directed me to your thread. Still not sure why, other than maybe just to encourage you, but I DO want to encourage you. You are obviously a man of faith and integrity, and your kids are lucky to have you. I think you're doing a wonderful job, under very trying circumstances. Until someone has gone thru what we've gone thru, I don't think they can possibly fully understand the burden we feel to provide for our family -- financially, spiritually, physically and emotionally -- while working on our own self-improvement all the while trying to shine a light for our wayward wife back towards our marriage.

It's exhausting, and I can feel in your posts days of alternate weariness and strength.

Be not weary in well-doing, H4H. I believe God is doing a work in your wife, and in your family, and in YOU. He will not leave you, and He will not rest until His work is accomplished in you. I don't know yet what that work will look like, but I do have a strong sense that you are on the path He wants you on.

I do also have a sense that it may be time for you to increase the pressure somewhat, and/or something may happen this week.

I also think you should see an attorney, and at least take steps to protect yourself -- nothing else. "There is wisdom in many counselors."

Be strong, and of good courage -- you're doing a great job, and -- I believe -- inspiring a lot of other people with your walk and battle.

Puppy

P.S. Last August, three months after I confronted my wife about her affair and her stubbornly refusing to end it, she finally left him, and tearfully begged me to take her back. She sent him a "we must never contact each other ever again" letter, changed her cellphone (to a new number with detailed billing which comes to me), and other than one relapse about two weeks later, has never contacted him again and has returned to our family. We still have our long-term (mostly SSM) issues, but the fog has lifted. What you are doing does work.

[hopeful4her]

Thank you for your input. As I already have the support of my kids in my sitch, the only reason to expose the A to anyone else who doesn't know, my kids and my parents (a few select friends know)would be for me to give WW the 2x4 as a last resort. I will struggle with this and will consider both sides very carefully.

Spent the day with D11 and then went to pick up D6 at grandmas. D6 decided to stay another night so I took D11 to a store near WW work at about the time she gets off. I was trying to not have WW meet at my parents as they are upset with her. WW called and I told her to meet us at the store. After shopping a bit, we walked to another book store. We all went our seperate ways and after a while, I walk around and find WW planted on the floor in the section of family law and such. Smack me on my head. I walk around for a while and she sees me. She asks me if we are ready, I say not yet. After another 30, WW calls me on my cell and is laughing because she can hear my phone ringing. I'm only two isles away. She starts to ask a question about power of attorneys. I walk to her section and we start to talk about a client she had earlier in the day. I sit with her on the floor looking at the shelves. What women need to know about Divorce, Self Divorce, Custody of Children...All sorts. I am trying my best not to say something. Just blow it off. I see on the ground a tissue and notice that her eyes are a little red. I pull a book by Hunter S Thompson and start to read. D11 comes by and sees the section. She asks WW some sarcastic question about the section. WW replies that she is just reading. D11 gives her a look and walks off. I ignore it all. I continue to read and WW starts to read the What Women need to know about Divorce book.

We leave and go to eat at HuHut. We all love it there. After, we take in a movie. Get home a little late and WW plays with the puppies for a while and then bed.

This morning, our arms cross each other (maybe I positioned mine on purpose)and our hands are on top of each other. She shifts her hand and hooks her thumb on my pinky. I know she is asleep and I'm wide awake. After a while she shifts again and her arm is now on my face. After a while another shift, and she back to her side of the bed facing away. Whether it is conscious or not, I love these touches. I like to think it is her subconcious that does this. Makes me think about what she really is suppressing deep inside. My wishful thinking.

Maybe she was reading the books, because she believes that I have already spoke to an attorney, and she was just trying to educate her self a bit about protecting herself from me. I don't know and I really don't care. My mind is absolutely set about fighting for the kids if she initiates anything.

We'll see how church goes today.

[hopeful4her]

Thank you, Puppy. You have made the tears flow now, thank you. I believe that the good Lord has put WW and I together for a higher purpose, and will die with that belief. My faith is strong and will keep up the fight. As is expected, some days I am unbelievably strong and others, well, you know. Our days at church give me so much hope and I see her inner struggle but she is so stubborn. It will be her undoing. I will be our undoing. But as I told S14, she is the irresistable force and I continue to be the immovable object.

Blessings to you, Puppy.

Roger

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Thank you for your input. As I already have the support of my kids in my sitch, the only reason to expose the A to anyone else who doesn't know, my kids and my parents (a few select friends know)would be for me to give WW the 2x4 as a last resort. I will struggle with this and will consider both sides very carefully.

H4H,

I would encourage you to pray not about the add'l pressure such an exposure could bring to bear (altho I do think it could do that), but rather about the ramnifications of not telling your children the truth. I see in your posts a greater and greater understanding by them of what's going on, and it must all be very confusing for them. I prayed long and hard about exposing to S14 (and ultimately decided NOT to expose to S11, other than we told him "Mommy and Daddy are having some problems, and we're working on them" kinda stuff), but I ultimately decided that if I were to err, I was going to err on the side of the TRUTH, and let him know that I would ALWAYS tell him the truth.

He thanked me for that.

May I ask why your parents are upset with your wife, if they don't know about the affair?

Puppy

[SirPrizeMe]

Hopeful,
I feel for ya.
You're in a terrible spot.
But you are fighting the good fight. Keep on going.


Tell your parents about the affair?
I was there. I didn't want anyone to know. This is a tough call. I didn't want to talk to anyone, I guess because of shame. I was shamed by my wife's actions. I wanted it all to just "go away". I wanted to handle it quietly and discreetly with just ourselves.

On the other hand, I could have used the support and advice, early in the situation. I could have used the stability that comes with support.

In retrospect, I would have told more people, earlier. I should have talked to more people, sooner.


The Rollercoaster
The 3:16 movie rental, and the ongoing contact with the other man. The holding hands and the divorce books. This is life on the rollercoaster as they say. You don't deserve this. Hopeful, I feel for ya. It stinks. You don't deserve it, but you get it anyway. and here's the thing; you are now being asked to be the best you can be, to fulfill the potential your maker put into you. You now need to be the best man you can be, for your children, and even for your wife. Right at the moment when you don't feel like being the best, you are being asked to be more christlike than you have ever been. Can you do it?

Hair color
Yes, I saw this too. Of course, every woman these days it seems wants to try different hairstyles, paint their nails, different fashions. It's totally normal. But on the other hand, big superficual changes, as in hair color or style, often indicate a desire to change themselves more deeply. My W went through 5 hairstyles in 3 years, searching, searching. When that didn't work to make her happy, she started with me - suggesting I grow a beard, grow my hair, change MY clothes.

What to tell your 14 yr old
This is delicate. I read that the truth works for kids 15 yrs of age and older. Your daughter is just under that line. But that line is artificial and arbitrary. Every person is different, every family is different. See, the thing is, you want to protect them, you want to sheild them from the ugliness and issues that are above their heads. At the same time they are old enough that they want the truth, and they'll be jacked if you hide the truth from them. This is, after all, their family, too. And it's very important to them.

The thing you must not must not MUST NOT do is lean on the kids for emotional support at this time. You are the rock. You must be the rock for them. You must act AS IF for them. They are unhappy, suffering, in ways they recognise an in ways they do not. You must not increase the burden on them. You must be the strong one. Again, I know, it's not fair. But this is your life now. You must bear that load. Enjoy your kids but remain their father.

The other thing I would caution against is secrecy. I would advise against having a "This is just between us" conversation with your kids - it teaches them the wrong lesson. Openness and honesty is best. I can see keeping a bday present a secret, but not serious things.

Initiating a divorce
Hopeful, I know you, man. I know your situation. You don't want to tear up your old life. You are afraid to even think about divorce. It's horrible. You just want your family back the way it was. I was there man. I was there. I am still there.

But the thing is, if your D6 is cutting herself, or if your other kids are suffering in other obvious ways, it is time to take a stand for them. I am not advising you to take a specific action, certainly not advising you to file papers for divorce, but... taking these things lightly seems dangerous and irresonsible. Hoping and hoping for a mended marriage while your children suffer is a terrible place to be.

Document what your kids are going through, and document your responses. You are caring for your kids now - document it.

Asking her back into the bed
I know this place, man! I know this place. Here is the thing. You can look at the situation and the righteous path is completely obvious to you: W should call it off with OM, cease contact, return to her husband and family, repent, ask and grant forgiveness, and begin the healing. This is right and true and good. You can see it. At the same time, you will look to yourself, fix yourself, become more patient, more understanding, more truthful, more honest more gentle. You will become a better man, for yourself, and for your family. And you will forgive. This is the true path. You can see it clearly. BUT !! She cannot. Obviously she cannot see this path, as you can. She sees OM as a possible path to happiness. She remembers the giddyness, the addiction. And OM encourages this. OM devalues family, commitment, true "agape" love. OM promises fun today, no responsibilities, no shackles. OM "needs her" - I'm sure he tells her that. And in that place, drinking in that influence, your wife sees fantasy land, where her actions have no negative consequences, where she can be extremely selfish and D6 does not suffer for it, where she can make and break commitments and everything is fine. She cannot see the righteous path.

OR, she CAN see the path, but it is too painful for her to walk the path. In order to take the steps on the path, she must admit to herself, and to you, and to the kids and others, that she has erred - not to say sinned - not to be too judgmental about it. But she has made huge mistakes. She has done terrible things. (You yourself have not been perfect in your marriage, I know this, because I am you, and you are me. You are not perfect, and you have made mistakes too, but your mistakes are generally inadvertent. And you want to correct them and grow and be the best father and husband you can be. You want this for yourself, I know.)

Either way, you cannot direct her. If she cannot see the path, or if she CAN see it and cannot bear to walk it. Either way., she needs to be in charge. She needs to select her path. Leaving the door open to the righteous path is what you can do. Pulling her hand and walking the path with her, won't work. She needs to do this herself. She needs to decide herself on the path, and take the path HERSELF. You cannot walk her path for her. You can only walk YOUR path.

So was it the right thing or not the right thing to invite her to bed? Who knows? And I know it was lovely to have your wife in bed with you, by your side. I know it. I remember my own wife's presence near me even now, and the mere memory of it is delightful to me. But she needs to feel free to decide for herself. She needs to feel that you want her back, but that she is the one making the decision to COME BACK.

If you shrink from her in revulsion at her behavior, then you are not leaving the door open. if you accuse her and criticize her to all your friends, you are closing the door. If you berate her and judge her out loud, etc etc. This is obvious.

But here is the crazy part. You have told her you love her and you have demonstrated that you want this marriage. And she hears you, and believes, for a moment. But the next day, she doubts. All the same doubts return, again and again. She doubts you truly have forgiven. She doubts that it is real. She doubts that you even CAN forgive her, that is is even possible. She doubts this because she herself cannot forgive herself. She herself is standing in judgment of herself. She herself is revolted. The only thing that cures this is a constant bath of encouragement, but it's got to be low pressure, oblique. Not "please come back to bed" which sounds heavy and serious, so much as "Wiggling toes together is just about the best thing in the world." or "I like dancing with you." It was unbelievable to me, that my reassurances to my wife were never enough. "You think I don't deserve my life!" she said to me once. It was shocking to me. Crazy even. I never thought this, even a little. I told her, whispered almost, "I think you deserve everything I can possibly offer to you. You deserve the best I can give. I want to give you everything." That worked for about a day. Shortly after, she was back to doubting me and my commitment.

She never got to the point where she truly believed that I wanted her. Somehow, she never really believed. I looked and looked at myself, but did not see what in my own actions would cause her this doubt. I can only conclude it was coming from inside HER.

I'm glad you had a night with your W in your bed. Did you ever consider a more oblique approach? Saying, "it was always nice to go to sleep with your feet touching mine" might work better than "would you please come back to bed?" The latter feels like pressure, the former less so.



R talks
You asked a question, "avoid all R talks or only avoid initiating R talks?" The answer is, avoid initiating. The point is to let them drive. if they want to talk about the relationship, GREAT. you should be happy and should respond. Refusing th engage would be shutting her out.

Attorneys
I hate what is happening to you. She is considering, considering. She is thinking "what is a divorce like?" And at the same time "what would it be like if I stayed with him?" When she looks at books for attorneys, can you just .. BE? Do you need to react? Maybe you can just do what you did - act AS IF everything is fine, blow it off.

At the same time I would seek the advice of an attorney right now. I know it is horrible to think about, but being smart is not being unfaithful to your marriage. Being prepared is not the same as desiring divorce. Don't feel like you are disloyal or breaking your vows by speaking to an attorney.

I was in your shoes and I avoided it, avoided it. And then my wife went around the bend, and I was in a much worse position. She asserted that I was never a good father and I had to defend against those accusations by "proving" that I was involved with my kids, and so on. That is much harder to do later. If you are thinking - that could NEVER happen to me, let me tell you, I was the same. No one I talk to can believe it. Not even her friends. Yet, that is what is happening - I am now compelled to prove myself as a father. Right now you can be taking photos with your kids, keeping the artwork they make you (dating it), writing letters to them - anything written.

Also you can keep a journal of what you do and when you do it with them. ("Went to the store with D6. She got a X and Y. Was very pleased." etc etc. Just keep a record of your child-care, child-rearing, and fatherhood stuff. Your actions on D6's behavior. You may never need this record, but if you do, it is there.

Lots of people gave me this advice and I SO STRONGLY did not want a divorce that I stuck my head in the sand and ignored it. Later I suffered for it.

----

I don't pretend to have all the answers. I walk the same path as you do. With the above I am just trying to share my experience and hope with you. I wish you the best.

[Puppy Dog Tails]

Hi, SirPrizeMe. I remember you from before, when my friend Chocolateeyes used to post to you. That was a beautiful, thoughtful post, full of WISDOM and encouragement. You sound like you have learned so much.

Puppy