i'm clueless....

[Dom R]

thanks tomato - i am sincerely hoping Dom didn't mean for me to just walk up and ask him to make a choice.

you are right. I'm not trying to suggest that.

What I AM suggesting, is that you DO need to tackle the issue. Start with the soft approach. Then, when it doesnt work, escalate gradually, until you get his attention.
(but escalate during the same day, not over the course of weeks The "over weeks" thing just isnt working for you )

Also, please note the subtle difference, between "asking him to make a choice", and what I wrote previously.
The difference IS subtle, but yet really important.

What I'm NOT saying:
"CHOOSE NOW! THEM OR US!!!"

Rather, I'm suggesting to first get him to verbalise what he thinks is more important. This should be a no-brainer, and an "easy" thing.

Then, challenge him to "walk the walk", not just talk the talk.

There is an important difference between demanding "CHOOSE NOW!!", vs "follow up on the words that just came out of your own mouth".

and/or pointing out, "your actions, dont match what you just said, and here's why."

Like i mentioned in my post above, i don't even know how much i care about the games.

I think that's a lie, Ann.

i think you are now going down the road of lying to yourself, "oh, they're not really that important", so that you can convince yourself not to confront him about them.

Conflict avoidance, in my opinion, is the #1 cause of a marriage going down the toilet.

The main, and usually ONLY way, problems can be resolved, is if you talk about them, and deal with them. Bringing up to someone "there is a problem in our marriage", is pretty much by definition, "conflict".

So guess what? if you always avoid conflict... then you are avoiding solving the problems in your marriage, as well.



Go read your older posts. They show fairly clearly how important an issue they are.

I think the conversation will be more about what he thinks a good healthy M should be and how he thinks we are doing.

I dont think he has a clue on what a healthy marriage looks like. that's why your marriage sucked years ago. that's why you ended up getting distracted by an EA.

So focusing too much on what He thinks a good marriage should be, is not fruitful. I think you should certainly get his opinion on it, and try to work with it. But it shouldnt be the be-all end-all goal.

My best guess, he's not going to see a problem with how things are.

I think it's pretty much a certainly he will say that.(again, because he doesnt have a clue on what a good marriage for both people looks like)

The more important question is, how are you going to respond to that?


Reminder: You're out of time on this.
you wont be able to work on it after the baby comes. and you wont have the energy to work on it for the last few weeks of your pregnancy. Heck, the baby may come early. !

Dont be a "conflict avoider" any more. Be brave! Be a "conflict resolver" !

[ann25]

Hey all...

Had a big talk with H last night. He kept trying to get out of it, but i did his whole yelling and argueing thing till he just realized i wasn't going to let it go. It took me over 2 hours, but i think i got everything out. By the end, he had stopped talking and was just sitting there, but i didn't need him to really respond, i needed him to listen.

Lots of things were said, and it started out over the video games, but within a very short period of time, i realized it REALLY wasn't the video games that was bothering me. It is that every time things seem good enough, he burries his head in something. Last time it was work and this time it happened to be video games. It's not the thing he is doing that bothers me it's that whatever it is, gets all his focus and he continues to avoid the things he doesn't know how to deal with.

He said i was being short tempered, frustrated and had too much going on all day and that he was just going to go outside. I told him if it seemed like i was frustrated and overwhelmed, that his leaving the house was certainly not going to help. He was confused, so i explained that when he is frustrated or has had a long day, i take the girls in their room, i make sure he has time and space to relax, i don't run away to avoid dealing with it. He asked what i wanted help with. I told him to look around. To figure out what the next thing he was going to get mad about was (cause i hadn't gotten it done) and just do it. That we are supposed to be a team and it's supposed to be 50/50, not me being his mommy and telling him to go clean his room. (a little unnecessary, but too late. ) kinda yelled back and forth about that a little while.

We talked about his paranoia and stress and the fact that it seems like he is always sick and refuses to do anything about it. He won't go to a Dr. and i practically have to shove cold medicine or tylenol down his throat when he's sick. I told him that if he wants things to get better that he needs to deal with stuff and not just push it off. He finally got his car back and that was what was holding him up before, but the first thing he did was make some other excuse when i brought it up... I told him that is what i was talking about.

good news... i think i realized where my biggest problem in our R is right now. His lack of trust in me. Granted, now he has a reason not to, but prior to our M, he doubted and accused me also and there was no reason then. This time, when the accusations started, there was no reason either. I told him that after the EA happened, i took a good hard look at myself and started working on me. I know that I have low self esteem, need approval and attention from others and I avoid conflict like the plague. Because i know those things about myself now, i can come up with different ways to react when I'm feeling hurt. I've talked with friends and family, so that if they see me withdrawing that they can help me deal with it. I've taken steps to ensure that i won't go down the same path, but he hasn't.

He admits that he has trust issues, that he always has and that he trusts no one. He can't remember why the accusations started the first time (prior to M) and he can't remember why they started this time. He doesn't remember why he started treating me so badly and why he started hurting me. I told him it's like they always told us in history class in highschool "those who don't know their history are doomed to repeat it". I told him what really scares me is that because he refuses to do anything to work on his lack of trust in people in general, much less me and he doesn't even know what caused things to change, that it's going to happen again. I told him i can guarantee that next time there will be no OM, but that I can't guarantee there will be much of a M left. That if he doesn't start really looking at himself and addressing his issues, that nothing will change. Things won't get any better, but eventually they will get worse.

He didn't say much and eventaully i just stopped talking. I started cleaning a little bit and we both just kinda acted like nothing had happened. I was giving him time and I think he was just kinda processing it all. We took the girls outside to play catch and help D3 with hitting a softball. When it got dark, we came inside and the girls and i ate and he fell asleep on the couch. I got the girls into bed and when he woke up, he went out to get food. The last thing he told me before he left was that he may not trust anyone completely, but of all the people he does trust a little, he trusts me the most, even after the EA. I think it took a lot for him to say that, so I'm hoping that he's at least trying to think about things...

The way i see it, one of two things will happen now. 1. he'll realize that he does need to address these things and actually try to work on it. or 2. he'll be nice for a couple days, then return to hiding from things in our M.

Like i told him. I'm willing to stick around and try and do my best, but i won't deal with the pain and hurt that i went through before. That if it comes to that, he won't need to tell me he wants a D this time, because I will leave. That when you love someone, you just don't treat them like that.

I hope he is willing to look at his part in all this and see what's going on....
-------------
I'm sure i said and did a ton of things wrong in this, but i did it the only way i could. I guess now i just wait....

ann

[blindsided1]

It's done and it sounds like you really got to tell him how you are feeling and he HEARD you. Good for you. It's up to him, obviously, if he wants to step up and pull his weight in the M. I hope that he does. My sitch is become more dire by the moment. I'm praying for you.

[fb2]

Ann, Good you two are communicating even if unpleasant. Perhaps encourage him (maybe insist) on something healthy/regular/routine for stress relief? Yoga, jogging, ... I think if you want change its more likely to happen with encouragement than criticism. Seems like he responded positively instead of denial and withdrawal. Seems like you are very stressed too. My heart goes out to you. Take care.

[Dom R]

Wow.....

WAY TO GO ANN !!!!

That was fantanstic!!

both in your courage to finally face him about things, and also in how you handled it. Wonderful! I am so happy for you!!

I have some further advice for you now:

Do NOT just sit back and "let him think about it" indefinately.

If you wait for a few days and say nothing... I think that things will all just fade away, and he'll pretend you never had your talk.

I think that you need to keep it "fresh" in his mind to some degree. Yet without being overly .... naggy? nasty?


I think that the really tough "time to be nasty/confrontational" time is now mostly over, at least for a while.

Now I think that he may be more open to a "together" approach.

Maybe just a LITTLE bit each night... For a few minutes each night, ask how his thoughts are, and stuff like that.

I think you had a fantastic breakthrough, in that both he talked about his not trusting anyone.. AND that he stil trusts you "more than anyone else", even if he cant trust you completely.
I think that's a really encouraging sign of a solid foundation that you can build on together. That's so good !!

(Wow... so happy for you )


I think that the most important thing right now, is to "strike while the iron is hot". To Nudge him a little to keep things fresh... and if he cant come up with a plan to improve things in the next few days... "strongly" suggest that the two of you start some kind of MC. as in, Right Now. And/or one of the "marriage intensive" weekend things, if one is available to you two.

That will be the next time you may need to be as forceful as you were last night.
If he and you can come up with some way to start on a path to improve things.. great! But if you two are out of ideas.... then it would probably benefit you both to go hear what some professionals suggest ASAP.

It would probably help if you put it like that;
IE: going to marriage counselling, is not about "going to someone and having them take over your life". It should be about talking to someone with a lot of experience, and having them suggest things that could be helpful to the two of you, based on their experience


oh. and one more word of warning:

good news... i think i realized where my biggest problem in our R is right now. His lack of trust in me.

It's certainly a huge issue, at an emotional level. But i dont think it's "the biggest issue".
I think that the biggest issue at a practical level, is that he doesnt spend enough time with you.
Nearer to the baby coming, and afterwards, that will be even MORE important to you, than it is now. You're going to have to really prioritize "spending positive time together", or it's not going to happen, right?

So, my suggestion to you is: dont let yourself get side-tracked. Prioritize, both in terms of general importance, but also in terms of "what do you need to be better, right now?"
Yes, the trust issue is important. But dont let that distract you from the more immediate, pressing, practical needs in your relationship.

[ann25]

Hey Blindsided and fb2 - Thanks for stopping by and thinking of me. I have no idea how he'll handle last night, but i do definitely think he heard me, at least towards the end when he stopped yelling. I'm going to do everything I can to help him if he wants it, but i do need to see something from him.

[ann25]

Wow..... WAY TO GO ANN !!!! That was fantanstic!! both in your courage to finally face him about things, and also in how you handled it. Wonderful! I am so happy for you!!

Thanks!

Do NOT just sit back and "let him think about it" indefinately.
If you wait for a few days and say nothing... I think that things will all just fade away, and he'll pretend you never had your talk.
I think that you need to keep it "fresh" in his mind to some degree. Yet without being overly .... naggy? nasty?
I think that the really tough "time to be nasty/confrontational" time is now mostly over, at least for a while.

I agree. I can't just sit back and let him ignore it. I'm hoping he won't, but I don't want to wait and find out. I don't want to nag him either. I think that i need to find a happy medium.

Now I think that he may be more open to a "together" approach.
Maybe just a LITTLE bit each night... For a few minutes each night, ask how his thoughts are, and stuff like that.

I like this. I'll try it.

I think you had a fantastic breakthrough, in that both he talked about his not trusting anyone.. AND that he stil trusts you "more than anyone else", even if he cant trust you completely.
I think that's a really encouraging sign of a solid foundation that you can build on together. That's so good !!

I have always known about his lack of trust in people in general. I always thought he had trusted me, but while we were talking and I kept going back, i realized, he's always done this. Accused me of cheating on him or finding someone else or something. he told me that I've asked the same of him. and I explained that when you trust someone and you ask that question, you take their answer at face value. You don't keep asking and getting angry about it every day. It took a lot of explaining for him to see all the ways he's shown a lack of faith in me. I couldn't actually get him to admit that he's never trusted me, but him saying that at least he does trust me is really good.

It would probably help if you put it like that;
IE: going to marriage counselling, is not about "going to someone and having them take over your life". It should be about talking to someone with a lot of experience, and having them suggest things that could be helpful to the two of you, based on their experience

I feel like while MC would be a good idea for us, that until he is willing to look at himself and figure out why he gets that way and why he starts suddenly thinking i'm cheating, it's not going to do a whole lot of good. I've been seeing a C. She's great and has helped me a lot. I think some IC for him would really help too. I'm seriously scared that if this happens again, i won't be able to handle it and I'll leave. I need for him to start working this out so it doesn't....

oh. and one more word of warning:

good news... i think i realized where my biggest problem in our R is right now. His lack of trust in me.

It's certainly a huge issue, at an emotional level. But i dont think it's "the biggest issue".
I think that the biggest issue at a practical level, is that he doesnt spend enough time with you.

I appreciate that you think that and yes, spending time together is important. For me though, i'm not feeling an emotional connection to him. I'm not saying i need his trust right now, but I do need to know that this won't happen again. I honestly think that's what is holding me back. I can't go through this again and I won't. I'll leave. I know that. So, i think i'm holding back.

I need to know he understands his issues and is willing to work on them so we can hopefully prevent this. I don't need his trust, i need him to try. That was the hardest thing i heard last night... i told him that i needed him to try and figure out how to start trusting people and why he can't and he is adimant that it's just the way he is, he doesn't trust and he never will. it doesn't have to be like that.

Yes, we need time together, but we also need an emotional connection. I need it at least. I just want to love my H again.

Prioritize, both in terms of general importance, but also in terms of "what do you need to be better, right now?"
Yes, the trust issue is important. But dont let that distract you from the more immediate, pressing, practical needs in your relationship.

What do i need right now, something from him that says, i'm not going to avoid doing stuff. I'm going to go to a Dr. appt. I'm going to talk about our M. I'm going to help with the girls.... something little. something that says, hey, i'm trying...

Thanks Dom...

[Dom R]

I feel like while MC would be a good idea for us, that until he is willing to look at himself and figure out why he gets that way and why he starts suddenly thinking i'm cheating, it's not going to do a whole lot of good. I've been seeing a C. She's great and has helped me a lot. I think some IC for him would really help too.

When you start thinking, "my spouse could really use some IC", you're probably stepping over a line. The same line that you cross over, when you take on the role of being the one who is responsible for mothering him into taking his medication, seeing a dr., etc.
Maybe it's time for you to drop that rope.
You might remind him about that stuff, because you care about him. But it is not your responsability that he goes.
It's his. Am I right?


On the flip side, "he thinks you are cheating all the time", isnt just about him. It's about HIS view of YOU.
Thats a couples issue, not just an "individual" issue. "HIM, and YOU".
To me, it sounds perfect for a good MC to address with the both of you.

[ann25]

You are right Dom - This is something good for a MC to address with both of us. Let's just hope, if i can even drag him back into MC, that this one can get more out of him than the last one did, which was nothing...

and honestly, i think it's as much of a how H views H as it is how he views me. He is insecure and thinks that I could do better than him. That is something he has to deal with. I can't make him feel better about him any more than he could make me feel better about myself when i struggle with low self-esteem. That's a personal issue. Totally independent of the M, an issue that was there before the M.

Yeah, i probably need to drop the rope. I shouldn't have to tell him what needs to be done around the house. I shouldn't have to force him to take medicine or go to the Dr. I shouldn't have to tell him how to treat his daughters. I shouldn't have to tell him that his family needs to come first. I shouldn't have to do a lot of things that i do... i think we already talked about this whough. There are lots of things that are his responsiblity that he doesn't do... doesn't mean they don't need to get done.

Maybe he doesn't need any IC. Maybe he'll just figure it all out on his own one day and it will all be fixed... don't see it happening, but maybe... should i wait around and see if he can change this himself?

I just know what helped me and what he's doing now, isn't helping anyone, so maybe something new would work.

[Dom R]

Yeah, i probably need to drop the rope. I shouldn't have to tell him what needs to be done around the house. I shouldn't have to force him to take medicine or go to the Dr. I shouldn't have to tell him how to treat his daughters. I shouldn't have to tell him that his family needs to come first. I shouldn't have to do a lot of things that i do... i think we already talked about this

whoah there.... you're mingling two very different things.

"you shouldn't have to" (with the inference that those things should happen anyway)
vs

"It's NOT YOUR JOB/RESPONSABILITY!!!"



Compare and contrast:

[.....] tell him to spend time with you


[.....] tell him to take his medicine



One of these starts with "you shouldnt have to ..."

One of these starts with "it's not your responsability to ...."


Two completely separate categories

I think it could be helpful to you, to more clearly identify what things in your life that bother you, belong in which category.