Very good advice from GFI. I have been up most of the night and have been reading another person's story and then I read yours. I had my suspicions pretty quickly, but I told myself to hold off and finish reading the entire story to see if you caught on. But, first let me go on to something else before I get ahead of myself. BTW, I hope I make sense b/c I'm about to pass out now from lack of sleep.
Quote:
I calmly said calm down, it's not a big deal, I know Y is winding you up but calm down. 'I'm in a mood cause I live with you, your a Fxxxer, your a fxxxer to live with'. All this in front of the boys. She then got out a toy to play with with the words 'I'll get x out for you as dad never does' !!!
This really concerns me the way the talk goes on in front of the boys. You know that is the pattern that is being set for their future with their W's. They will copy what that have grown up seeing set before them. They also see their mom disrespect their dad very, very badly. So, what you need to do is to get her alone in private and get her undivided attention and let her know this is unacceptable behavior as a mother and you will not allow it to happen again. Draw the line in the sand. Set that boundary and demand her respect in front of your sons! You really need to go to the web that is called Making her Happy and get the free email. He knows what women want and need. He is very plain spoken but he is great. Anyway, she may fight you on this, but it is one thing I would not stand for a minute. You do not need to fight with her in front of the boys. If she starts causing a scene......I would send the boys immediately out of the room, and then I would get her undivided attention and let her know that she will show respect for you if the two of you are going to remain under the same roof and co-parent your sons. I am not suggesting that you beat her or abuse her in any way, but if she has ever respected you at all and knows when you are dead serious.......you better let her know you mean business or she is going to walk all over you and she will do it in front of your children, your family and your friends....it will get that bad if you don't end it now.
Okay, I hate doing this but I suppose I am going to have to be the bad guy here and spell it out to you sweetie, she is having an affair. Remember, I was almost a WAW and I see the signs. Look at her lifestyle! Even if she started out with her "friend"....what do you think they are doing, Arthur? Personally, I think her so called friend is just a cover for her in case she ever needs it. If she isn't in an A with OM.....she is on the prowl. A mother of two sons does not live the life style she is living (going out dressed like she is) and not be on the prowl! So, even though you have not wanted to face it, it is staring you in the face anyway.
Now first, you said that you would leave if you thought she was having an affair. You didn't think she was b/c when you confronted her, she told you she only kissed the man and it didn't feel right. She lied! She knew she had been caught and so she said just enough to make you feel better and think it was all okay again. But, this really is all about her and she is not doing it to make you look bad or to hurt you. Even though it does.....that is not the reason for the life style she is living and the possible EA/PA. It sounds like a MLC, but I won't say that it is for certain. However, the outburst and mood changes all account for the double life she is living. If she gets upset at OM, or disappointed, or wore out for lack of rest and sleep due to her late night (well you insert the word _____), then of course she is going to snap and be cranky with her family.
When I was considering leaving my H, one of the first things that was told to me was that I could not love two men at the same time. Therefore, the OM was looking good to me (simply b/c he fed my ego) while my H was looking worse all the time. She is going through that now. Plus, she is helping you to look worse in her eyes to justify her own actions (in her mind to deal with the guilt).
She wants her freedom in order to "play" as she wants to, without you as the baggage. Sorry, for being so blunt. I know you love this woman and want to keep her in your life, so you are trying to be blind to what is really happening. You said you did not like her friends b/c they were a bad influence. She has chosen them, just as she chose the lifestyle she is living. It will catch up with her. You also need to be careful or you will find yourself falling into the same pit.
To snoop or not to snoop.....that is the question. All the wise DB's say do not snoop. My H snooped and he read some very private and sexual messages that I sent to my OM. He has already had one open heart surgery and he almost had to have another one after reading all of that. Then he went crazy going through everything I owned, and the phone bills.......had the OM checked out, etc. Now, I am talking about a Clark Kent type of man that you would never think of reacting like that, but he did. Want to know how I reacted when he confronted me about what he had done and what he had found out? I came as close to hating him as I ever dreamed that I could. I was so furious that he violated my privacy and snooped into my affairs that I could not stand the sight of him. Did it take care of the problem.....nope. Did it make things worse between us....yep. Did it drive me into the arms of the OM? Almost. It certainly stepped up the R with my OM. It never led to a PA, but it was well on its way to that before I ended it.
I told you all of that to say this. How you handle this information is up to you. You can continue to deny it and think she is just out with "friends" all night long. You can snoop until you get enough information to confirm your suspicions and then confront her and make matters worse. You can leave her and file for D. Or........you can act "as if" you will be fine with or without her and essentially do the same advice that I gave Stonecamp. In taking that same advice, you can become attractive to her again and you can prove that you are the better man. But Author, she must respect you in order to fall in love with you and if you think you have lost some of that respect, you have to get it back. You can do it and not be abusive! Just be firm and let her know what the boundaries are.
As far as her lifestyle and her seeing OM, you really can't control her b/c if she wants to see OM.....she will figure out a way to do it. It just causes her to be more sneaky.
Don't' do or say anything that would look clingy, weak or needy in her eyes. Don't over-kill with the compliments.....especially when you suspect she is going to see OM...I certainly would not tell her how great she looked or give her money and tell her to have a good time. But, if she dolls up for a family affair or some other function that you know is decent and respectful....then I would give her the compliments, etc.
Well, I'm sorry for being the one to bring this out so plainly, but as I said, I think you knew in your heart. You have the power to draw her back to you and desire you again if you are willing to work very hard to improve yourself. I know that sounds unfair since she has been the one to stray, but something has caused her to desire this activity that she is doing so often away from her family. It is not appropriate for a woman of her age....a married lady....and a mother. It won't work to preach to her and try to lay down the law about that part. That part of her life, IMHO, you will have to draw her out of it by becoming a very desirable man in her eyes and one that she will want to be with at nights instead of going out without him.
I would be careful about how you conduct your own lifestyle in case it should come to a matter of child custody.....which I pray it doesn't. If you can hang in there for a long time.....and I mean a looooong time....I think you have a chance. It will be very hard and as I told Stonecamp....there is no magic cures for this sort of thing.....just a lot of hard work, the right timing, and lots of patient.
The decision is up to you if you think she is worth it or not. How valuable is your wife, your M, and your family? That will determine you answer. If you say they are everything for you, then be prepared for the hardest battle you have ever fought....the mountains you will have to climb and the valleys you will fall into.
As far as the percentage of success rate by using the DB technique, I don't think they have any way of knowing. However, I believe it is the best. Marriage Builders is wonderful and you can print off a lot of information and I think you can even get a workbook.....but that was a long time ago that I checked. Anyway, it runs hand in hand with DB, it just uses different terminology.
Please keep coming back and posting. People here really care and will help you all that they can. I hope you will take the post I have sent (even though it wasn't what you wanted to hear) as a challenge in your life and you will gear up, man-up, and step-up to stand for your marriage. Hit the gym and work out that body so you will look very attractive, dress nice, stay groomed very well, wear good cologne, use good manners, always be upbeat and positive, act "as if" you are enjoying life (even though you aren't), spend quality time with the boys, be fun when she is around the house. Don't be trying to get kisses or hug or asking for them (women hate that) and don't tell her you love her. No pursuing b/c that is pressure on here. Wait fo rher to make the first move about things of that nauture.
Speaking of the house.....I personally think you should do those jobs around there that you haven't done--thinking you would sell it, b/c that will appear that you are expecting to be there and if not and you should sell it.....that would help with the "curb appeal" ---as they call it.
I've got to go, it is after 6:00 am here and I am beat. I hope I will hear from you again. Please don't give up and throw in the towel. You can do this....I know you can if you want it badly enough. I will talk to you more later.
Take care.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
No, it wasn't what i wanted to hear, but i appreciate it as it comes from somebody doing what my wife does. However, all our sitches for there similarities are different and my wife would of told me if she had slept with that man that night or done everything to get me to leave the house by now IMHO. I've asked so many times at first, that i'm convinced by her response that she didn't. Saying that, that doesn't mean she hasn't with him or another man since, though not a great deal of opportunities and don't you women want more than just sex ?
I have days I really want this, then have days where I think 'is it worth it?'. I question whether i'm doing this totally for me or my boys, but is that wrong anyway ?
Are the sly little comments a test to see if I bite bTW ? I mean, telling me men were approaching her Fri night, asking if I got chatted up last night and just things like that as if she were speaking to a friend ?
A friend also pointed out to me that as we are 'over' she isn't actually doing anything wrong anymore.
Been waiting for C for 3 months due to times we can make, and still not got it. Very Frustrating that is.
Anyway, I'm hanging in, being nice, not getting sucked into arguements and enjoying time with my boys for now as if we split, I'll hardly see them (by comparison) for a while which would kill me.
Sandi - Can you add a link to your post as i'd like to read the whole story ? cheers
Read a fair bit of book today and everytime I read it, I get a new enlightenment, but also some fear returns of how tough this will be.
W seems in a bad mood today, but we have not seen much of each other. Something else occured to me, not sure if positive exactly, but not bad, that we haven't actually argued for about 3 weeks. I mean, not even a heated raised voices dissagreement, that must be a record !!!
Feeling a bit sad today, but that is self inflicted as got the day after a big drink paranoia !!!
Now you seem to be immersing yourself in the DB world...now is the time for consistency - constant action on the 180s on your part - btw what are your 180s?
Best - GFI
Me: 40ish W: 40ish Together: 20 ish years Married: 10ish Years
ok, little journaling my thoughts on me over the years.
I am a good man, a nice man and an averagely attractive man. I was always everyone friends and had loads of friends and spent a lot of time with friends. I still see a lot of my friends but TBH I would rarely see them for about 4 or 5 years, using excuses of money etc not to make the effort to go out.
When we had our first child, I had no idea and had an old fashioned head regarding howour lives would be. I would work and provide and my W would be mother. I did not appreciate what she was going through and how tough looking after a child was and took all the nagging wrong, felt I did my bit and W should just get on with it, i was how it was so why was it so much tougher for her than other mums ? My son was also v hard work as had reflux so we weren't getting much sleep at all and my W probably less than me. Once he got over his illnesses and started to be agreat sleeper and great fun at about 18mths, our R improved and I put it all just down to my W being a new mum with PND. However, when second child came along, it started all over, even though I was doing more this time round. I thought me not going out, literally working and then spending time with the family was enough, but due to the way my W spoke to me (nagging, bossing etc) I just shut up shop and thought it was going to be the same 18 months all over, then things would improve. However, I didn't realise how hurt my W was by my lack of affection, empathy, understanding through all this and didn't show her how much I loved her and really appreciated everything she was doing.
My W then started going out a little more and she is a beautiful woman, but i trusted her completely and really didn't think things were that bad, but as soon as another man showed her the things that I didn't, she went with it. (not slept with him to my knowledge). This obv gave her that inital romantic buzz again and want that more. I cannot do that now aswe've come this far, but hope I can be the one to do that inthe future. For now, I'm working on becoming that man i describe inthe first part of this post.
Not read this back so might be babble and i need bed, but if nothing else from this, i've realised i lst my true self and I want that back for me. That was the man my wife fell for.
It's tough as now i recognise my mistakes, I just want to hold my wife tight, tell her i love her and will look afterher and protect her forever, like she wanted 5 years ago.
I've no idea whether she thinks there is still achance for us as not mentioned R at all, just being positive about me and my boys
Well, your W may not have slept with another man.....but I would be very surprised if she hasn't. Just b/c she has been honest with you about everything else in the past doesn't mean she would be about the A....one reason being that she probably knows you would walk out on her and she has her reasons for not wanting that at the moment. One could be that she knows that she cannot financially support herself without your income to assist, (plus she can count on you to stay home and babysit the boys....free of charge), or two, she is just wanting the "party scene" to flirt and tease and she is "getting off" by turning these guys on. It has renewed her sense of sexual power as a beautiful and sensual woman. (But that could get her into trouble if she teases too much.) Third, and I think after what you said, this may be closer to the real truth here.....she is wanting to make you jealous enough to see her as these other men are seeing her. She is telling you about tidbits of the party scene and the reaction and attention she is receiving from other men....in hopes that it will stir up some passion in you! That is what she is wanting.....passion. You said that you have taken her for granted and not paid her enough attention. Yes she is getting very addictive to the "buzz" that she receives from all this sexual attention. It is like foreplay for her. Perhaps the "friend" she has along with her works as a "protector" and therefore your W is not as helpless as she would be totally alone in a bar/party situation. So, if she did not want to leave with a man, she would be safer to be with her friend.
Quote:
This obv gave her that inital romantic buzz again and want that more. I cannot do that now aswe've come this far, but hope I can be the one to do that in the future.
If she does not want to leave you and she truly wants to keep her M, then my next guess would be that she is wanting you to give her that romantic buzz. Apparently, she was starved for it. You mentioned something in one of your post that kind of grouped all of "us WAW" in by saying something to the affect that that is what "we" do. I did not do the same as what you wife is doing. Not all WAW's do what your W is doing. I have never been in a bar in my life nor have I ever been to any "parties" like she is going to. I never went out all night without my H. He would never have stood for me to go "parting" even if it was with another woman friend b/c it only means one thing....they are on the prowl. You asked a question about isn't that how "we women feel or want from sex"...but I will have to go back and find it, I can't remember how you said it. I was not a saint by any means, but don't group us all together in doing the same thing, we may have similar reactions in our stitch and react in pain, boredom, pure loneliness and neglect, but we are individuals. Remember I was "almost a WAW", but I came to my senses in time and even though I am probably thought of as someone from the other side....remember that I am here to try to help. One thing that "women like us" have in common is that we are very unhappy in our MR or we would not do what we do. Usually, there is a lot of resentment built up though the years. Read Michelle's article here on the board about the WAW. I bet your W tried to tell you how she felt a long time ago, but you did not take it seriously.
I thought she sounded like she was in a MLC and was trying to capture her youth again. If you have not read the part of the MLC, you need to do that. If you have seen a drastic change in her looks and dress.....and of course her life style...that is usually a sign that she is in MLC.
I am very concerned about her leaving her children to go party like she does, but I can understand that when a woman is desperate enough for some male attention and her ego fed, she will put that above her family. As I said....it is like a "drug" that has gotten into her system and it will be very, very hard for her to break free from it. She will need help. So, that leads me to you. My friend, you must take responsibility for the part of the breakdown in your MR. From what you have posted, it sounds as if you are.
No, it is not wrong to want to hang on to the M b/c you still love your W and b/c you love your boys. That is what this board is all about.
You must finish reading the book. Make that your priority for now. You have to know the tools to deal with what is happening. Go to the MLC forum and read some of the sign of people in MLC and how to deal with it. If she is in MLC, it will take a long time for her to get out of it.
I know your W sounds like a b*tch but she is really screaming out that she is desperately unhappy and she wants to be appreciated and admired. She was bored to death in her R with you and now she is trying to find excitement in other places. She tells you things to see what your reaction will be. In other words she is saying, "Do you even care what I am doing?" She is starved for romance, but deep down (I hope) she still wants it from her H more than any other man. Unless she has completely divorced you emotionally, you could get that feeling back for her again.
You said you had already started taking better care of your physical appearance. You need to really work on your looks and your personality and your manners. All of us can stand to improve ourselves. You are like most others that have let themselves "relax" too much in a M to the point of letting down and not working at it. You must always work at a M or you will either lose it or you will have a very dull and boring R.
My advice for you is to perk up and start showing her that you can be better than any of these other men.....but it will take a lot of hard work....it won't come shortly, so you must have lots of patient. If you play it right, you can even show romance in time, but at this point, I think some healing needs to come first.
Why is it taking so long to find a C? You certainly need to find a pro-marriage and solution based C.
Read other thread here on different forums. You are not the only man in this situation. BTW, I am over in the Piecing forum and the links to my story can be found there.
Best of luck to you.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
TY so much for your replies, they are a great help. I'm at work, so will respond fully a bit later, but I am reading them. Also, I like to re read to digest fully before my response.
W is at the Gym tonight so should get another hours worth of reading done
I'm glad that you've decided to stick by your marriage. You are dedicated to your wife, and family. She has turned into another person. Give her room to "snap" out-of-it. Internalize it as an act of love. Remember the vows, "for better or for worse?" Right now, I would not pursue her. Instead, keep doing what you are doing. Michele calls it a 180. You need to understand, that your wife has changed. If you pursue her, you'll push her further away. In her presence, be upbeat, do not ask questions, argue, beg, or cry. Also, if you snoop, it will not do you justice. In fact, you might not be prepared for what you'll find. But that does not necessarily mean THE END. As you know, people do change. As for now, please take care of yourself, LOVE on your children, and participate in relaxing activities.
You said: "Cheating is the lowest form and most painful thing in the world." Yes, it hurts. I would never wish this upon anyone. We do not understand why things happen. However, do not give up. Please take time to read the book, and keep on visiting!
I think you're amazing for making it this far. Keep it going!
Wow. TY v Much Tia. Ego boosted for today then !!!
I would love to read the book all night every night, but as it's a 'secret' that is impossible while still living together. However, some time tonight, then will go to my mums Wednesday to hopefully finish it and start over doing the activities.
I had become a pessimistic person and this really hurts, but I certainly feel some of my old optimism is coming back and the old positive jokey person that I liked is there too. I still think we have a chance, we have 2 holidays coming up, but I stear totally clear of any R talk and any arguements.
I know my wife is doing some things to grate me as they are things I would have bitten at before, but think she is surprised by my reaction. I don't bite at all. She has started going OTT with swearing in front of the children and this morning I just calmly said 'Could you please not keep swearing in front of the children, it's not right and you are doing loads of late' and left it. There was no response, which I think usually there would be.
It's strange as I think I'm kind of winding her up by not being the person I was 4 weeks ago, she does not know how to react. Maybe the new me has installed some doubt and guilt in her, I don't know.
Anyway, as always, I'm not holding out too much hope for us, but I am confident about me. Fix me and hopefully wife will come back to me.
