Dear crs, you can do this! However, it will not be easy for either of you. First, she is wanting you to feel the pain that you caused her. I think after the second time you went back to OW that did something to your W and now it is "payback time". She may or may not feel any emotional dependency with this OM b/c I cannot see how they could have much "fun" if she is doing all of this b/c she is angry with you and wanting to hurt you. A woman's wrath....well, you know what they say about that! So, if she is messing around, really, with this OM but is angry as hell with you.....how could she possibly be much of a lover or friend or anything? If she is having sex with him, I bet she is thinking about you all the time she is doing it.....which OM surely would not like to know that (lol). Plus, when a woman is angry...it shows in everything she does. Also, this thing of her not wanting you to know where she is or answering her phone....that may be just to make you think she is with OM. Have you thought of that? She may not be with him at all. I just can't see her that involved with him or she could care less where you were at all times or who was around you, etc. That tells me she is still in love with her H.
You have first got to win her trust back. I think you know that and are doing all the right things to prove that to her. If you have to do anymore contact with OW by email, text, or whatever, I would suggest that you have your W there with you as you talk or write the messages to OW. That shows her that you are being honest and not keeping secrets. Have witnesses anytime you can. Don't get caught alone if you can help it. By that I mean take a buddy with you whenever you go out. It gives you an alibi, so if anything is ever doubted by her, she can check with your buddy (which, of course, if always a male friend, not a woman----unless she is a relative...an old relative..lol).
The affects of both affairs will hang on for quite some time after the two of you decide to make your M work. It is hard for one of the S not to get obsessed about their mate's OP. It is hard when they have sex not to keep from wondering if the other one is thinking of the A, etc. If they are as good as the OP was. If your sex together is as good as the sex with OP. On and on.....it has to be worked on for a long time. But, it can be done if you two love each other enough.
Keep working hard at DB and you will make it. Hope you will hang on and continue to come here to talk to us. It is good therapy.
Take care.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
A couple of days ago I asked my W the question, If it wasn't for the affair would you still want to leave me? Her reply was "No, everything was so good for the last yearand that what makes you having an affair that much harder."
Hearing her response just about kills me. Because everything was going so well and she was so in love with me, but I could betray her the way I did. I am so ashamed of myself for doing what I did.
She has also told me how could she ever trust me again, when I had her so convinced that I was not cheating. The only response I have for that is that it will be a life long mission for me to never betray your trust again. Unfortunately she doesn't want anything to do with the M right now.
I will continue to work on me, to improve who I am and who I can be for my W and kids. I always seem to put myself first, in some instances that is not the worst thing in the world to do, but other times it is completely selfish, we are a family and I am going to do everything I can to keep my family whole.
My C and I are going to begin a new type of therapy to get into all of my self defeating attitudes and why I sabotage good things in my life, i.e. my marriage. The therapy is going to be emotinal for as explained by my C, but how much more emotional of an event can ther be than being involved in an A, having your wife start an A because of my A, and then tell me she is leaving me. I say bring it on.
Like I said in a past post "It anit over till it's over!"
Thanks Sandi! I almost forgot ot check for replies. Everything you said makes so much sense and gives me that extra boost I need at a time like this.
The W left for the Gym and a quick stop at a dept. store over 3 hours ago. Seh had her gym clothes and bag with her, but she also had make up and her hair done, which she usually never does to go to a yoga class and a run. She still isn't back, but I am not going to call her, I am going to give her the time she said she needs.
We talked for about 45 min this morn. after I got home from work. A good talk as things are going right now. She wanted to know if I was still making appointments at the C, and of course I am. She also asked a few more ?'s about the A, and if I was being completely honest, and of course I am.
We had a huge fight Sat. about her staying out all night or coming home at odd/late hours. Both of us said some ugly things to one another, and after giving it little to no thought I know that if I ever want to recover my W's love I can not fight with her like that agian. Nohting is accomplished but pushing her further away than she already is. No more sarcastic remarks, no more telling her something is none of her business. None of that BS ever again.
As for the matter of her being with OM, I don't know for sure that she is, but common sense says otherwise. I'll admit that it is killing me inside, but if you are right that my W actions are out of revenge, than she is doing a great job of it. I hope she is thinking of me if she is with him.
One of the other things that really hurt my W about the A is the fact that the OW was not the best looking, or had the greatest physique in the world. My W is in a struggle with her self over her appearance. She is going to be 34 in a couple of weeks and does everything she can to as she says "Not look old", but my W is beautiful and is just getting better looking the more mature she gets. She is self concious about her weight, and when she saw the OW she asked herself if it even mattered that she try to keep herself in shape for me since I would go out and fins someone who was heavier than she is.
I am so sorry for everything I have put my W through over the last year. I could not even begin to explain how ashamed, embarrassed, and sad I am for doing what I did. I just hope that some time soon my lovely beautiful W will let me poor my heart out to her, and she will begin to accept my apology.
I just want another chance to be the man she deserves, not the man she has known over the last 18 months.
CRS, what most people do not understand about A's is that the beauty of the OP is not the issue. MY OM was not that much to look at either....he wasn't ugly, but just common I'd say. But it wasn't his looks that I was attracted to. From what I have read on the subject, most men have A's with women who are not as pretty as their own W's are. But, it is not about looks, it is about needs. Whatever that OW was giving you that you were not receiving from you wife is what drove you to her the first time and probably again the second time. Either that or it was just the sinful thrill of it all.
I think of the LBS, it is not just the personal hurt b/c they were so in love with you, but it is that they feel they were made a fool of. A woman feels scorned and a man's ego is crushed. Both have a lot on their plate to have to overcome. Maybe you told this and I have forgotten, but has she said how long she plans to keep this "affair" going? Is she waiting until she thinks you have been punished enough or is she waiting to see what you do.....just what is her plan in all of this b/c I don't buy into her loving that OM for a minute! She may try real hard to convince herself that she does, but she doesn't. Listen, I tried as hard as anyone I know to give myself every reason to leave my H and how much better off I would be with the OM....and yes, I think I had a pretty good crush on him, but I know that I wasn't in love with him the way I was my H.
So, why is she so "open" and throwing this all in your face about her being so obvious when she leaves with make-up on and a bag, saying she is going to work out and run? She is wanting you to think she is going to meet with OM.......that is for certain. She knows you are smart enough to figure out what's going on. If she didn't want you to know, she would wait until after she left to doll up to meet with him. So, she wants you to know...badly. So, I think she is still in the "Payback" mode, for sure. However, when you don't feel that you can take anymore of that crap, then I think it is time to have a heart to heart with her and tell her that you have everything you have essentialy told us here on the board. If you have a hard time talking....write her a letter. You write great!
I know that when we are DBing that we go by the book, which is the best that I've read. But, your stitch is just a little different (I think) and I believe that if it gets to a certain point that she is making you feel less than a man, then it is time to certainly use the LRT and be prepared to stick to your guns b/c by then, she will be showing that she no longer respects you. You see, right now, she is still mad as hell at you, but when it gets to the point she is using you like a door mat and has made you feel like you've lost all your manhood, then it is time to step up. You can do just so much and I feel that you are doing all any person could do under these circumstances. You ask for forgiveness, you go straight and honest nad show her every move you make every hour of the day....I mean what more can you do? You have tried to be understanding in her A with old boyfriend.....my gosh, how much more does she want. I know, a pound of flesh for evey hour you made her cry. Women can be mean and nasty, in case you didn't know that. Sometime, they get so caught up in the "payback" that they go too far.....I'm just saying don't let that happen before you put your foot down and say, "That is enough".
No, a fight is not good, but don't coward down to her either if she tries to use guilt, shame, embarrasement, or any of those things on you. If she starts up with it, tell her you have apologized for your mistakes and you can just say you are sorry so many times! There comes a point and time that she has to learn to forgive. Refuse to fight with her about it and walk away. Drive around or walk, run, go work out, hit the boxing bag...whatever, until you cool off.
I really hope you have a good counselor that will help you figure out some of your personal problems. There may be something there that you have never dealth with that he/she can find out and help you with it. Be sure you have a good one. If you don't feel that he/she is.....go find another one. I have been burned by some bad ones. Tell him/her that you not only want to find out what your hidden problems may be, but you want solutions to them. Why know what they are if you don't know what to do about them, right? That is the problem with a lot of so-called marriage counselors....they just tell so many couples they would be happier with somebody new and off they go to get a divorce, instead of the counselor trying to help them find a solution to make the M work.
Take care and keep in touch.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
The last couple of days have been quiet for the most part, except when I bought her a dozen roses, then she told me that it just reminded her of the fact that I had given her roses then slept with the OW two days later. So I aplogized and left it at that.
Today she sent me a long e-mail telling me to stop kissing her ass, stop buying her things, because op[ening up my wallet is not showing her that I care.
I don't know what else to do. She won't talk to me except to tell me she wants me to move out. She tells me I never cared about her feelings, which is not true, but for her it feels that way. I am stuck in no mans land right now.
I love her and want to do everything I can to show her that and how sorry I am but she is so non receptive to me that it is like beating my head into a brick wall.
Now she wants to hire a mediator,and if I won't go along with that she is going to hire an attorney. Neither of us have the money to go through that.
I relpied to her e-mail asking her to please slow down before to much damage is done and to think about our kids. I really believe that with enough time and change on my part our M can survive, but right now she is hell bent on getting out.
Well, in that case, maybe you should do as she says, "stop kissing her ass" and go detach...big time. It's harder to do while under the same roof, but you can give her plenty of space. If it wasn't for the kids, you could go dark, but I don't know how you can do that under the same roof and with kids. I would certainly give her the LRT in very firm terms (if you know what I mean....no ass kissing what so-ever) Pull a Rhett Butler on her! If she thinks you really mean it (and you'd better) then maybe (just maybe) she will change her mind. As I see it, it's the only card you have left to play. After the LRT speech, I would stay as far away from her as possible. I'm not saying I would leave the house, but I would make it a point to be gone when she's there as much as possible. It goes back to the GAL and all the other things I've told you.
It seems that this goes deeper than just "payback". She just doesn't want to forgive you.....period. And, if she is going to throw it up in your face at every turn....you can't win. I was listen to The Proper Proper Care & Feeding of Husbands, by Dr. Laura, and she said that women are the worst about forgetting. Even if they have said they have forgiven....they still want to bring up the past they haven't let go of or forgotten. I'm sorry to say, that is very true. I am finding it hard to put my resentments behind me and move forward. But, my situation is much different b/c mine was a series of things that happened over decades of M that brought us to where we are....not a particular wrong doing.
I am so sorry and wish I had the magic words for you. You can only do so much, but I do know that from what you've said that you have done enough "ass kissing" b/c now she is being turned off by it, so I would suggest that you start applying some alpha male steps the the author of Making Her Happy web site talks about. You can get his free news letters. They are very good. A woman may get mad at you, but she has to respect you in order to be in love with you. So, show you manly self and don't let her walk on you anymore after today. Draw the line in the sand.
I know your pain is bad, but I hope you will keep coming here to post. It helps to get it out of your system by talking to somebody.
Take care of yourself.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I don't think the LRT is right for now. She is talking to me a little more now, nothing positive but it is still talk.
Her affair is out in the open now, and god does that hurt. Like Sandi2 said it is part of her healing process.
I have a good friend who went through an alomst identical situation with his W a few years back, amd he is telling me that the M can be fixed. Knowing him as well as I do I believe him. With out knowing all of the details, he has told me what she has already done without me having to tell him. He and his wife are happier than they have ever been and the M is coming up on 25 years.
I am going to hang in there, I owe myself that much. If things can work out I owe my W all of the honesty and respect that can be given for the rest of our lives.
Crs, good to hear there is talking. Remember, you don't need to bring up the subject about the R, but if she wants to talk....listen and validate. If you don't agree, just tell her you hear her and understand (or at least are trying to understand) and you are sorry she feels that way about it. If you feel that you can tell her honestly that you will think about what she has told you, do so. But, don't get into a fight about it. Leave the room or house before it gets to that point. If her voice start to rise.....you remain calm. Can you do that? It is when both are yelling and shouting that it gets too bad.
Keep reading the DR book and make sure you understand the LRT and "Going Dark". I think a lot of people don't get those concepts. I'm not saying that you don't, but many other people don't.
Hope the talking works for the better. I'll be thinking of you both.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
I have taken the advice of my C and begun to write letters to my W. At first I didn't think this was a good idea because she may not read them. When we had problems in the past I wrote her and more than once I found them torn up and in the garbage, but so far she is reading them.
I find this easier than trying to talk with her because I can say what I want to say in a clear and concise manner and not have to respond to what she says against the point I am trying to make.
I found out the guy she is involved with has been physically abusive in the past. This is something I will not tolerate. He has not been abusive towards my wife, I hope. Now she thinks I am making up stories in an effort to get her to stop seeing him. No matter what I do I cant win.
I made the mistake of contacting the OW last week to find out if she is getting back with her fiancee, AKA the OM who my wife is having her A with. I was honest with my W about the meeting and what was said and the questions I asked, however now it has been turned around that I had to be pushed away by the OW after making sexual advances.
I am also accused of making comments that my W was at home in an Ambien incuced coma and would not know that I had left the house so I was free to do what ever I want. Then the real kick in the groin came when the OW told the OM who relayed it to my W that I was going to go home ( after being rejected) and maturbate to porn that my W purchased. I am not all high and mighty but, I don't watch porn, it makes me uncomfortable and I don't really see the point. Some people watch it, I don't.
Needless to say the fact that my wife would even begin to believe the load of BS that is being fed to her makes me sick.
I am going to continue to hang in because I know there is a light at the end of this tunnel, I just have to know how to change the bulb and work the damn switch.
It just amazes me that the OM and OW talk to each other about this stuff. I wished you two could "get the heck out of Dodge" so far away from either of them that you'd never have to run the risk of seeing or hearing from them again. They must be some pair!
The more lies your w listens to, the worse off she is going to be until she decides who she has known the longest and the best. Be careful about defending yourself or it will sound like over-kill and that you protesteth too much! If she accuses you, I would tell her that she has got to start believing you once and for all and that you are going to stop giving an account for yourself every time she questions you. If she continues to tell you what somebody else has said, just look at her and then ignore the statement or question and start doing something else as though it is not worth discussing. Hopefully, she will get the idea that it really is not worth it. It only hurts the MR.
I can only imagine how terrible this must be for both of you to have A's with another couple. So, complicated. That is why I thought she just wanted "pay back", but now I don't know. Just do what the DR book says to do. That is the best advice that is on the market.
Keep posting and keep working to be the better man in her eyes.
Sandi
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
