Please help...need MLC advice

[tpaschal]

And yet another set of questions....

H wants to put the house on the market. I agreed in Temp. Orders that it would have to be done sooner or later since I knew I wouldn't be able to afford to keep it up on my own. (Wouldn't even want to try, anyway, as it is 5,200 sq. ft. with six toilets. I'm tired just thinking about the cleaning that needs to be done right now.)

He got pissy a few weeks later, asking why it wasn't on market yet. Told H that it was what he wanted, he needed to deal with it.

But I backed down a couple of days later, called realtor myself, told H I had made an appt. Figured it would have to be sold, does it matter who calls her? Maybe a little, as I feel like I gave in, yet again, but in the end, it will still be on the market, right?

Now H is all gung-ho about getting it sold, when he was here on Thursday he did not spend more than 5 minutes with the kids, instead got out measuring tape, to measure for new dishwasher since old one is broken. Told me I could buy it and he would pay for it, or he would go pick one out. Told me to call yard service to rehire them for time house is on market, etc.

I have told H before that this is his D, he needs to deal with it and do the work for it, but the reality is that in Texas you cannot contest a D, so I have had to deal with most things anyway in order not to get "caught with my pants down" and to "have all my ducks in a row."

So H DOES have the feeling that everything is going is way, and I hate that. He gets his way to a large extent about how the D is going to go, about money, about kids, and now about sale of house.

I do feel like a doormat.

I want to just say no. But then I waffle. See me waffling? Spinning? Twisting in the wind? I know I need a good price on the house in order to have a downpayment for me and the kids to move. So it benefits me to do the things he wants. But then it p*ss*s me off that he once again gets his way with it all, because we don't really want to move at all! (house cleaning issues notwithstanding) Urgh!

[tpaschal]

In the msg. yesterday asking about doing something with the kids, he also asked if he could "borrow" the fridge that's in the garage. I never answered it.

H sent a new one a little bit ago asking if I had gotten his msg., and could he come pick up the fridge today.

What to say?

My MIL says "let him have it, it costs too much elec. and you can't afford it anyway," or to tell him I planned to sell it in the garage sale and if he wants to give me $50 he can have it. Don't think I can do that, since it is his as much as mine.

Friend said to tell him I wasn't comfortable with splitting up any more of the assets before the D is final. I like that, it doesn't make me look like a doormat, but does it make me look like a petty beyotch?

[CMNM]

What if there had been no swim team banquet and I was going out of town to visit my sister's new baby? Who would he have dumped my kids on Sat. night so he could go to his damned party? That worries me, but I can't live the next 10 years of my life allowing him to affect my weekend plans, can I? I HATE THIS!

T, don't "what if" yourself to death! As it was, it worked out. You will drive yourself crazy trying to anticipate every little thing that might happen. Take it as it comes, and just do the best you can.

The best advice I can give you is to do what is best for you NOW. If letting your H go to your house to visit the kids works for you and them NOW, let it be. True, it may be different some day. Deal with that then.

As for the fridge-- you need to decide how big of a deal it is to you. If you really think you can only get $50 for it, it doesn't sound like as if its a big deal at all. How much do you want to make of this? You could always let him have it for free, but make him sign something that said that he took it. Just tell him you want to document anything that leaves the house from this point on just in case. No biggie if you don't make it one.

Hang in there. That was some post you got (the purple one). Take some time to digest it all.

Hugs,
Pam

[tpaschal]

Tpaschal,

I have gone back through your thread which began on February 14th. Much of what I address is old and much has been addressed--Bombadier and Momof2girls come to mind as those who offered excellent advice.
So at times if I answer something that is from the past, it is because it may be a common issue, and thus others may have similar questions.

Again, thanks for all the time and effort you took to really address my sitch in full. My new C is a DB trained counselor, and has said some of the same things in the one individual C session I've had so far, but to tell C all the things I've posted about and asked questions about here would take more money than I've got!

I plan to split my reply into at least 2 posts.

I guess that the IDLYA bomb is already pretty far into the process?

Usually Bomb Drop is preceded by 12-18 months of progressive disillusionment.

Now that I look back, I can see that H probably started going through some of his disillusionment as long as 5 or 6 years ago. Well, at least that's when he started buying self-help books like The Purpose Driven Life, and The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People. He also bought a few relationship books like Men are from Mars, and Deborah Tannen's You Just Don't Understand.

Actually, I don't think at that point he was disillusioned. I think at that point he was genuinely trying to work on himself to be a better, more secure, more organized, more purposeful, effective person and a better communicator. We talked a lot about the books, though I never read them with him. We did have some serious conversations, and sometimes I would gently tease him that he seemed to be awfully down on himself if he thought he needed so much improving. I told him I thought he was already terrific, so why so much searching?

He was honest, I think, about what he was feeling at the time about needing to be more organized, wanting to be less of a procrastinator, wanting to be taken more seriously, wanting to feel like he was contributing something worthwhile in life and not just marking time. He also talked about his feelings of insecurity and inferiority with other doctors. I already knew of these feelings, and had always done my best to help him examine them, to see if there was any merit, but mostly just to offer support and reassure him that his feelings of insecurity and inferiority were unmerited. I tried to build him up. Guess I didn't do a great job of it.

Something that did bother me around this time was that he started talking about his belief that there was no such thing as a "soul mate" and that if he and I hadn't found each other, it wasn't that we were destined to roam the world pining for our one true love---each other---but that we each would have found other mates and built happy lives with them. Now, he wouldn't just bring this up out of the blue, it was always in context with a discussion with which it made sense, but the anti-romance of it always hurt my feelings a little, even though I agreed in principle.

Another thing that bothered me was that after I had a miscarriage in Aug. of 2004 he refused to even discuss having a vasectomy, even though we had 3 children and I was pretty sure my child bearing years were finished. I told myself that it was because of his macho Greek father upbringing, but I really did have some inner qualms that he was just trying to keep his options open. I asked about it, and of course he denied that he would ever leave, but if I were to die and he remarried he might want to have that option. I felt the same way, so what could I say to that? (If he died, I remarried and new H had no kids of his own, etc.) Still had the qualms, though.

I read a book by Steven Arterburn (think that's the correct spelling) called The 25 Secrets Men Keep. Excellent book, IMO. There's a section about why so many men think they married the "wrong" woman. Very interesting. It also talks about why so many men seem to have a fear of committment, even those in long-term, committed relationships. Why they sometimes seem to be keeping their options open.

told him I was trying to understand what he needed, but I was confused.

Many do not reach out in such explicit ways. You did well, but he was also confused; you could not have understood since he did not know what needed understanding.

Thanks for the reassurance. Looking back, I think the real disillusionment began in the summer of 2005, as that is when he started being more critical of me in general. I put it down to stress at the office. We had an awesome 10 day vacation to Spain in Sept. 2005 for just the 2 of us, and though we had a WONDERFUL time, he became very cranky when we got back, and complained that I went right back to the way I always was. I told him I understood that he was sad about missing our time for just the two of us, but reality was that we had three active children, and day to day routines that we had all agreed on as a family, and if he wanted to change things, I couldn't do it all on my own. But his snarky periods wouldn't last long, and I again put it down to stuff and stress at the office.

But now I wonder if the OW was already working on him then. She started working in the office part time when she was 16 or 17, and was a huge flirt from day 1. Of course, being naive and trusting, I TRUSTED him!

He has continued with the alien behavior for a whole year now. Gets mad at something, rants and raves,.......... then gets over it and starts coming around again

This is standard Cycling behaviour. MLC is like a temporary Manic Depression.

it should be clear to you that your MLCer is not remotely detached. His irrational behaviour--his obvious separation from reality, is evidence of his mental Dis-Ease. It is a lot easier to stop blaming yourself in such conditions.

In some ways, yes, it is easier to see that I am NOT to blame. I have told him on a couple of occasions (bad DB'ing? I don't know, but at the time I needed to say it---not nastily, just matter of factly) that his behavior towards his parents and the kids are proof to me that this whole situation is NOT about me or that we had a bad marriage. Rather, his behavior makes it OBVIOUS to me that no matter what I did wrong in our marriage, his refusal to even consider working on the marriage, his refusal to put his kids' needs above his own whether he comes back or not---all of these actions are about his own selfishness. If it was really about me and our "bad marriage," he would still want to be a father. He would still want to be a son.

But in other ways he seems VERY detached. Otherwise, how could a father go three solid weeks without speaking to or laying eyes on his three children who only live 10 minutes away?

And he seems very detached from me now. The C said that in observing his body language in our joint C session 2 weeks ago, H seemed contemptuous of me. <sigh>

I'm so used to sharing EVERYTHING with him

I know. Our spouses are often the one person on Earth we trust with our Selves.

Yes. No matter how many great girlfriends I had---lots of great friends, but only two in the "sister of my heart" category---H was the one I shared my true Self with. And I KNOW he did the same with me, though obviously holding back some big stuff the last couple of years. This betrayal is bigger than the physical one, by far.

He has started in "Why isn't the house on the market yet? Why haven't you gotten a job?" I guess I feel like he is the one who wants the divorce, not me, so why should I do all the work for it and make it easy for him?

Have you said that to him? There are some things you can say directly. Depending on the legal situation, that may not be one of them. Do what you are legally required, but nothing more. You want to avoid the impression of illegal dragging. But if you can address it, tell him: This is your divorce; I won't help you.

I have told him this. The problem is, with the way the D laws work in Texas, I can't quite follow through on this. H filed, and there is no way to contest a D in Texas. Even if H did NOTHING else from this point forward, the judge would eventually (before the end of the year, probably before the end of the summer) grant a D by default. So while I don't HAVE to put the house on the market (see my above post re: house sale) or run out and get a job right away, I DO HAVE TO get my discovery done, get the appraisals on the house and on his practice done, request depositions from H and the OW, etc., etc., to be able to present my side of the case in court.

You've got your information now. And as others have advised, stop the snooping. But let this information reassure you and step away from it. The fuse is ignited, sparks may fly and it may be exciting, but eventually it will explode. It doesn't need your help and consider any influence from you could interfere. Step away and let it happen.

It does not mean he will come home. It does not mean you will want him at that time. It also doesn't mean he will stay away and alone. There are no reconciliation guarantees.

But his present relationship was doomed before it began. Please have Faith in that.

Oh, I want to. I want to have Faith in this part, at least.

Yes, part of it is vindictiveness on my part, not wanting her to "win," or to gain anything from the destruction of my family, but the other, larger part of it has to do with the kids. Her comments about not knowing how she would ever feel about his kids, not really wanting to get to know them, prove (to me at least) that she would always try to drive a wedge between H and the kids. Plus, the kids knew this girl, though only slightly, because she worked in H's office. They are furious with her and I know she would always cause a strain in any relationship they will have with their father. D14 loves him but has been the most damaged and the most exposed to his behavior. She is disgusted by him and does not want to be around him. I actually do fear that D14 will try to physically attack the bimbo if and when H ever tries to bring bimbo around the kids.

But according to him, he is oh-so-happy, is moving on with his life, and she will be a part of it.

And what do you say to that--literally, what is your response?

There is a time for playing along and a time for confronting him with your knowledge of truth. The difficulty is knowing when to use which.
Validation
I realize that dear. You've never been happier.
Truthful Confrontation
We both know you aren't happy, so denying does no good.
Truthful Confrontation-Sarcasm
If that's happiness, I don't want it. But we both know it isn't
Truthful Sincerity
Really, I'm sorry. But you've been looking so miserable/sad/down. I just assumed you were unhappy.
Then smile sadly while lowering your eyes.

Over the past 16 months, I have used all of those at one point or another, except for Validation. I have also used the less helpful sarcasm, of "Great! I'm glad, cause you deserve each other! You are nothing more than a monster right now, and so she's getting just what she deserves---a monster."

she does not really want his kids around, but she's playing the part of the good little wifey.

She's feeding him crap about me, telling him that I am a bitch (he told me that), that I am just trying to delay the divorce to hold onto him (well, yeah), and telling him that I'm just a bad mom.

Just as you need to avoid bad-mouthing her, a wise OW (oxymoron) would do the same. Let her bad mouth you. Your husband knows it is not true. It will eventually backfire. Rejoice that she is acting the part of B*tch in this Drama.

Does he? Does he know? Sometimes I think he must, but then when he insists on telling me what a good person she is, I wonder. When he tells the C that he's realized he needs a different type of person in a relationship (having said this to me before, he knows I know that he's referring to all my "character flaws"---I am selfish, not a giving or generous person, I don't know how to share, I'm too controlling, I don't know what real love is, crap, crap, etc., etc.)

There have been only a couple of times since he moved out in Feb. 06 where I've spewed about her (again, calmly, not screaming), calling her a wh*re and a sl*t to his face, and only once has he defended her, telling me not to call her that.

Once or twice I've tried to calmly express concerns to him about how his lying to the kids about her existence just makes them feel more insecure because they KNOW he's lying; I've tried to talk to him about how he's going to introduce her to the kids; and I've expressed my concerns about having her around the kids (when I've heard from others that she's said that she doesn't know how she would ever really feel about having his kids around, and doesn't really want to get to know them.) He defends her by saying she's not that kind of person and would never say those kind of things. He doesn't want to believe that she gossips about him and their R, just like 98% of the women on the planet gossip to their friends. On the other hand, he hasn't exposed them to her at all except the 2 times D14 has happened upon them accidentally (through H's stupidity.)

Only discuss legal issues through your lawyers. When he tries to discuss legal issues, refuse and refer him to the lawyers. Yes, this may bring more Monster. Be firm, in this Monster is his method of manipulation.

This is what I've been trying, and it definitely brings the Anger Monster.

Or do I continue to hold out, hoping that with enough time and prayer, he will change his mind?

It's not about changing his mind. Rethink what's happening and instead of labeling his behaviour as mistakes, label this Crisis as a necessary Journey.
180 degrees is the complete opposite direction. A complete revolution, 360 degrees, may be considered turning back to some, but the Journey through the degrees is transformational. When he completes the next half of his Midlife Revolution, the two of you will be facing forward. It is now, when he's only halfway around the circle that he is facing backwards.
And note: He may travel it different speeds through out. Many spin 180 degrees and face backwards in what seems an instant, whereas the second half of the circle may feel like the span of many lives.

I like this. Especially the part about it being a necessary journey. I wish it wasn't so, but it seems it is.

he's been very, very surprised by my calmness (for the most part) and by my calm insistence that I do not want a divorce and believe that God can restore love to a marriage beyond any hope or expectation.
But he's still determined to press forward with a divorce. So now what? It's hard to know what the right path is.

Let's see, you want your marriage rebuilt and believe Gad can restore. Isn't that the path then? What you seem to be asking is what should you do. You are asking for active suggestions.

Yes, you are right. I want active suggestions. And lots of times I already have an idea of the action to take, but it helps me to talk out a course of action before committing to it.

though I keep turning it over to God, I keep trying to take it back from Him

That is normal; keep practicing. You no longer need to snoop because you know about the discord. Now have faith that the OW will continue to show jealousy and progressively shorten and tighten the leash.

Ooh, I hope so. Oh, and get this---the OW's father had a large stroke over Easter weekend. I feel terrible about that, and would never rejoice in another's suffering, having lost my beloved grandmother to a stroke 3 years ago, where she lingered in a comatose but still slightly aware state for three weeks. OW's father is evidently mobile, but has some serious lingering effects and may never drive or live alone again. BUT--the funny part---he has now moved into H's 3 bedrm. apt. with H and OW!!! Hysterical! Now when it's H's weekend with the kids, they not only have to deal with finding OW a place for the weekend, now they have to find a place for Dear Old Dad!!

My MIL and some of my friends think it's the best thing that could possibly happen to speed along the eventual hoped for destruction of that R.

I hope so, too, knowing how little H liked to have stay over company (except for his own parents), but I also think he is still so impressed with her being such a good, caring, giving daughter. Also, I'm afraid he'll be less likely to break up with her when it will make him look like a total schmuck a**h*l*.

Respond to his anger, bullying, and maltreatment with consideration and kindness. This will really screw him up. It will defuse his wrath, confuse him, and make him think

This doesn't work with all of them, but it worked for me. Rather than diffusing the Anger, it may teach him to take it to someone else. He may stop spewing at you and find someone who will react back.
But consideration and kindness are how to respond even if it doesn't work and he continues to spew at you. Kindness includes Tough Love and it keeps your heart pure.

This is good. Kindness includes tough love. Need to remember that.

This is a common question. Should you let him stay over with the kids in your absence. Should you let him come over and spend time with the kids at the house.

I am not saying it was a good idea that you let him stay. There were some tense results, but it doesn't seem as though it was a disaster either.

It is interesting that you let him stay. I would actually have advised you to say no. Not because I felt it was a bad idea and agreed with your arguments, but rather because it was something that seemed to make you so uncomfortable. I would have let him stay, but you are not me and we all must do what is best for ourselves.

But I'm glad you faced this fear.

I prayed and prayed about it, and felt a kind of peace that it was what I needed to do---let him stay here. Or maybe the peace came from letting the kids stay at home. Oh, don't get me wrong, I still stressed about it, but so far as I can tell, it worked out okay. Of course, he got more focused on getting the house on the market after that, so who knows what really went on in his head while he was here?

I think your doing awesome! You have a vicious Monster MLCer and you are handling your Self well around him. I'm impressed. Trust yourself.

When I was able to live by the words, "You know the truth, it doesn't matter what others think," my life got tons easier.

I love this. There are many injustices in this world. But have Faith that the two that matter most know the Truth. You and God.

Listen to others; they may have valid criticisms and helpful suggestions. But recognize the truth of who and what you are, even if no one else will. Believe in yourself.

Thanks for the kudos. It's hard to trust myself, but I know that's part of surrendering this all to God and letting him be in charge of the outcome, instead of me. But it still helps to hear I'm doing well!

WHEN is H going to WAKE UP???
And WHY do I KEEP asking that???????

Because this is a long and tiresome Journey--and you are not far in when you consider the MLC range.

Ugh. Now that is something I DON'T like to hear.


2nd half of reply in a bit.

[tpaschal]

Pam,

You are right. I do tend to what if myself to death. Trying to predict H's response and the outcome to every one of my actions and reactions. Very tiring. I am trying to get away from that, but still find myself spinning!

Yes, the situation with the swim banquet "worked out" but only because I took over the responsibility for him. And my friends did have to sit around waiting on me for an hour after they were all kid-free. Which would not have happened if H had taken responsibility for it being his weekend. So, that was frustrating.

For today, I just ignored the text msg. about the fridge. Don't know if he'll just show up or not.

He'll probably be pissy about it tomorrow morning when he comes to pick up the kids.

At this point I think my response is just going to be to say very calmly that I don't think it's a good idea to split up any more of the assets until it's decided by the court, and that I think there's a good chance I will need it when the kids and I move to our new home. (Wherever the heck that will be!)

Pam, thanks for your continued words of support. How is your sitch going? Any new developments? Really would love to hear an update.