On the Marriage Builders website, look for the "Questions about infidelity?" section about 2/3 the way down the page. Then click on the "Click here" link. Or, just click this:
Other than "After the Affair", DB, and the Marriage Builders website, the only other book I read was "As for Me and My House" by Walter Wangerin. I think it's available through Amazon. It's a really good general marriage book. It has a chapter on infidelity, and recovering from it, but it's main focus is more generally on making marriages last. It has a lot of good stuff about how to forgive. I read it after my W told me that she didn't think she loved me anymore, but before I found out about the A.
I don't think I've really started to go through the resentful stage yet. I'm still concentrating mainly on winning her back. I've certainly felt some resentment (I resent the hell out the fact that she seems unable to completely break from the OG), but it's just not my focus yet. What do you resent the most, the fact that he had the A, his not being sorry enough, his not working hard enough now, the fact that he's unwilling to leave his job, or is it something else? What's the worst part for you? You'll need to help me prepare for that stage.
Glad your date was good. Did your H treat you well? That's the main thing, who cares what everyone else thinks. Besides, I'd bet that nobody thinks you are a fool. More likely, they're thinking how good you looked and how well you seem to be doing, given the terrible thing that was done to you. Most people, when it gets right down to it, don't condone adultery; if they are thinking badly of anyone, it's your H and the OW.
And, yeah, I know what you mean by wanting to compare. If I hadn't already met the OG, I'd probably have needed to go see what he looked like. The OG is actually pretty good looking, but in the end I'm not sure that I'd feel any better whatsoever if he was ugly.
My W work long shifts at the hospital, so she won't get home until around 9 tonight, and she'll be wanting to get to bed by 10, since she works all day tomorrow too. So, I may or may not get the chance to give the massage. Oh well, if not tonight then maybe tomorrow night.
Hi Bri, Thanks for the info. I think I resent the fact that h had the A & actually could do that to me. I also resent the fact that it seems to be H does not want to talk about it, I don't know I don't want the details or anything I have made my mind up on that, Actually I think what I resent the most other than the A is that I feel like I always have to worry if things are ok if I'm doing the right things etc. I don't feel I should have to feel that way all of the time. So insecure I guess. I don't know if I will ever get past that. For ex. my got up this morning (as h does every morning) to spend a little time w us then goes back to bed. Everything was fine we had S** & everything before I had to leave to do some errands. I come home H gets up & is in a foul mood, I asked if I did something to make h mad. No. H foul mood continued up until h had to leave for work. So now I'm in a panic, I hate this, & the worst part about it is I don't think I can talk to h openly about my feelings, I don't know if I will ever be able to. H is not much of a talker, everything gets put on the back burner & I think that was a part of our problem. SDtill si I guess because I'm afraid to open things up. As for my A date yes h did treat me well, it was nice although I am more of the romantic type than h is, so I am always alittle disappointed as far as that goes. I mean we (forgive me for being blunt) have s** all the time no problem there (sometimes to much for me) I would never tell h that though. But I would like it to be a little more affectiont, My H has never really been as affectionet as I would like. Although s** now is better than it has ever been, go figure. I also feel like I always think of h & do things for h, make sure h has everything h wants & needs & I don't get that in return I always put H before myself, I do that w the kids too. And I still feel like I'm not doing enough. I know my H works very hard for us & doesn't have alot of time or energy so maybe h just feels that's enough. I don't know. As far as h quiting h job I so wish but that is not possible because h will never make the kind of money starting somewhere else, h would have to start at a lower pay rate & work h way up again. So I completly understand, I just wish the OW would quit. I am so sorry I rambled on, any ADVISE!!! Could use some. Good luck w your massage s love it I'm sure, especially after a long day at work. Talk to you soon. By the way how's the cell phone snooping going? GOOD? I hope. I know how hard it is. ~~K~~
Hi, It's me again. Thought I'd jump on and see how your night went, were you able to give you W the massage. How did s react to h surprise? Well last night I found out that the OW got fired, boy I know this sounds bad but YEAH!!!! My H had to be at work an hour early this morning (Sun. are bad) & h has worked alot this week due to vac. Of course h got up in that foul mood again. H couldn't find h hat, so I was trying to look for it, here h had left in the truck last night. "I didn't leave it there" h said. Well of course I repled w "yeah someone else left it there" H got mad told me h I was Ms. high & mighty & to shut up h didn't want to hear it. Now I am really upset because h is the one who left it there not anyone else, so why is h being s**** towards me???? Somestimes I just don't get it, I shouldn't have to run around the house everyday & make sure I know where h hat is so there is no conflict when h can't find it. H should know where it is, he wears it. So F****** stupid. I kepp telling myself that I should just forget about it & that it never happened. I know h was running late,tired & h hates Sun. but that is no reason to treat me that way. Wheather h meant any of it or not, sometimes I think when h is upset or stressed h tends to say things h shouldn't or doesn't really mean. And now that I look back on it I probably should not have made any comment at all, just kept my mouth shut, knowing it really wasn't a big deal & now I feel worse because I said something. I feel like I can't ever say anything anymore. Well I'm sorry I just had to vent a little. Have a nice day.
1st, let me just congratulate you on the OW getting herself fired. VERY cool. With any luck, maybe she won't be able to find another job and will end up broke and homeless (am I bitter about other men and other women? Oh yeah). Maybe that will at least relieve some of your daily anxiety, every time your H goes to work.
Your story about looking for the hat reminded me of the one thing my W and I briefly argued about this weekend. She was looking for a shirt that she was "sure" she knew where in the closet she had put it. She basically accused me of snooping through her stuff and moving everything around. While it's not entirely false (I have looked through her stuff, but not lately), I'm always careful to put everything back in place. Of course, she found the shirt 30 seconds later, at which I sort of kiddingly said, "are you going to apologize now or later?" She said "later", cooled off a little, and then did say that she was sorry.
Kim, I think for much of my M, my W would have had many of the same complaints that you now have about your H: that I was too grouchy too often, not affectionate or romantic enough, too wrapped up in work or in my various sports, and never wanted to really talk. She says that much of that was what drove her to have the A (grrr, I hate hearing that from her; she didn't need to have an A to get me to make some changes). In the last 4 months, I have done a lot of changing, and I think that many of the changes can become a way of life, a new way of being and interacting with her.
Some of the changes (180s, I guess) feel very natural. For example, being affectionate and showing her that I love her by holding her hand or coming over to kiss her for no particular reason is easy and natural for me to do. It's hard for me to explain (even to myself) why I had lost that over the years. I think it had a lot to do with how my W and I have interacted in the past, getting caught up in a semi-continuous cycle of reacting to some wrong that the other person had done, holding grudges, and withholding love. That cycle became a way of life, and something that I didn't recognize until recently.
Other changes I've made like not being grouchy after a long work day and fighting traffic during my long commute are harder to make, but now that I recognize better the effect my mood has on my W and family, it's been a little easier to make the effort.
Obviously, you don't want to get to the point where you are so unhappy that you end up doing something drastic yourself. Maybe now is not yet the right time to tell your H all the things you need and want from him (or maybe it is, I don't know). But you'll need to get to the point where you can tell him what you need from him, and find a way to do it so that he really listens, does not get defensive, and is motivated to make some changes. My W is being really sweet right now. Even so, I would really like to have a talk with her in which I explain what changes I would like from her. But now is not the time for that. While I think that she appreciates how I've changed and has been reacting very well to that, I think she is still of the opinion that the only change needed from her is to stop the A. But for our R to truly improve for the long term, I think that I need to find a way to tell her and motivate her to make a few changes. Wouldn't it be great if you could just hand 'em your top 10 spouse improvement list and be done with it?
I hope you can find a way to get your H's attention and get him to really talk to you. When my W told me that she didn't think she loved me anymore, that was when it happened for me. Then again, I don't think she had tried to get my attention for years before that.
One resentment that I have comes from the fact that my W only said a few times during the 1st week after the bomb that she was sorry, and hasn't expressed it since. I guess she thinks what she said is enough. I don't want her to just be sorry that she hurt me, I want her to feel it in her bones. I want her to be I'd-give-my-right-arm-for-it-not-to-have-happened sorry. After the 1st week or so, I have pretty much suppressed the pain I've felt, at least around her, and have tried to spare her and have not tried to make her feel guilty, in order to win her back. But the truth is, I want her to feel guilty. I would love it if she would come to me sobbing in pain to apologize for everything. What a great dramatic scene that would be. I could wrap my arms around her and magnanimously announce that I forgive her. But it's very unlikely to ever happen. Instead of that, I think I'm going to have to reach the point where I forgive her anyway, even though she may never feel sorry the way I want her to.
I'm glad that sex is good for you and your H. It seems to me that sex can help maintain closeness for those times when you might otherwise not feel close. Sex is usually when I feel most connected with my W; I wonder if that's how it is for your H. Sex also motivates me; if my W told me that doing x, y and z would make her more interested in having wild sex all the time, I would be sure to do x, y, and z.
We had a good weekend. There was again a lot of affectionate touching and sweetness. No R talk, and for now, that's probably how we both want it to be. At some point, the cellphone issue (and many, many others) will need to be addressed.
I must confess that I did try to find my W's cellphone, to snoop into if and how often she had talked to the OG. I couldn't find it in her car. I guess the "good" news is that I think that things between us are going so well that I wasn't motivated to really search for the phone in other places in the house (it pretty much has to be either in the garage or in our walk-in closet). I hope I'm not deluding myself.
I did do the massage thing Saturday night after she got home from work. I was ready with pre-warmed massage oil, candles, and soft music. It was a lot of fun, although my hands and forearms got sore after about a half hour. She very much enjoyed it and, uh, showed her appreciation. Life can be good.
Bri, Hi, yeah, I couldn't believe my ears, when H said h was talking to h boss about who they had to fire tonight. And of course I had to ask who? H said the OW. I didn't reply. But I was jumping for joy inside. I still keep waiting for h to call me for some reason, but s probably would have already if s was going to. I know what you mean about wanting h to suffer. I also know what you mean about telling my H about my needs, that's going to be very hard for me, I was never really able to. I don't really know why? My H does nice things for me but I really think h is a taker more than a giver, but h really really surprise me sometimes. I have pretty much given up the snooping, I am still waiting for the cell phone bill, that should tell me an awful lot. Isn't that terrible of me? I just need a little more to be totally sure. That's not to say this couldn't happen w someone else later on( Oh God I hope not!) I really would hope that I would not ever have a A, but I see what you are saying, sometimes I feel like I would love to pay h back so h can fully understand how it feels (That's mean) My H made the comment one time that h feels that I will eventually do that (for payback) I feel very strongly about that sort of thing & the vows I took, It would be very difficult for me to do. My H got a little upset when I met h last week for our A. Because a couple of guys were talking to me, I have guys hit on me all of the time when we go out, but I would never do anything about it. Maybe thats why h always worries about what I am wearing (H dosen't like anything to low cut) to me it's fine. (Nothing nowhere near sluty) H came home last night after the whole hat issue was fine like nothing happened like I figured h would. I am glad to hear that you W enjoyed h massage. I give my H a massage everyday because h is always sore, but very seldom do I ever get it in return even when I ask. I hope you have a good night. ~~K~~
Sounds like things continue to go well for you...you sound very strong and sure and calm. Good stuff.
Are you back to the "no snooping" policy?
Quoting eskb: One resentment that I have comes from the fact that my W only said a few times during the 1st week after the bomb that she was sorry, and hasn't expressed it since. I guess she thinks what she said is enough. I don't want her to just be sorry that she hurt me, I want her to feel it in her bones. I want her to be I'd-give-my-right-arm-for-it-not-to-have-happened sorry. After the 1st week or so, I have pretty much suppressed the pain I've felt, at least around her, and have tried to spare her and have not tried to make her feel guilty, in order to win her back. But the truth is, I want her to feel guilty. I would love it if she would come to me sobbing in pain to apologize for everything. What a great dramatic scene that would be. I could wrap my arms around her and magnanimously announce that I forgive her. But it's very unlikely to ever happen. Instead of that, I think I'm going to have to reach the point where I forgive her anyway, even though she may never feel sorry the way I want her to.
So...I can completely relate to the desire for a super-duper heartfelt apology. For me, it's less about wanting h. to feel guilty and more that it would be a sign to me that he truly understands how unbelievably devastating this sitch has been...the extraordinary pain and loss of self that it has caused. Of course, it wouldn't simply be a sign that he understood MY pain and loss of self, but also that he understood his own, too. I guess I would see the apology as some sort of step in the right direction of ensuring that we NEVER find ourselves in this sitch again.
I haven't based my level of forgiveness on receiving this (and to be clear, I did get one if not two apologies from h. early on. What I did not get yet, though, is the statement that it will never happen again ). Anyway, I think for me forgiveness needs to be a totally separate event. It hasn't been easy for me to get there but I think I'm there....I can see how our m. could have felt painful and unbearable to him in some ways...I still can't make the leap to having an a....but, well, that's just me.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I got a chuckle out of your H getting jealous. I think that it's probably good for him. Totally healthy for him to do a little worrying. It'll help him remember his feelings for you. If I were you (this stuff is always easier for you good-looking women!), I would continue to dress to look good and enjoy a little attention when guys hit on you. You know that you won't have an A, and you should reassure your H that you won't, but letting him have a tinge of doubt is not a bad thing.
In the past, I always liked it when my W dressed up and looked hot, and even at 39, she can look great in just about anything. And I haven't minded her drawing looks from other men. Of course, she had never given me any reason to distrust her, and I know she enjoyed the ego boost. There's nothing wrong with that. Feeling less secure now, I guess I'd prefer that she only do that when I'm going to be with her. To this point, I've only worried about her and the one OG. I don't know if I should be worried about new OGs as well. I wonder how common it is for women to have multiple consecutive A's. Yow, I need to stop thinking about stuff like that. I certainly don't need new and unjustified worries to complicate my obsessions. They're bad enough as it is.
My current obsession is that I still have not gotten an ILY from my W. I fantasize that maybe she is waiting until Father's Day, or maybe until our Vegas vacation. The more likely answer is that she just doesn't feel it, or that she wants to be sure of everything that she is feeling before she says it. I sometimes, but rarely, say it to her. On the one hand, I want her to know it and never doubt it, but OTOH, it's awkward and just draws attention to her not saying it back.
I sometimes forget that you are not so far in front of me (chronologically) in this whole A-recovery process. Things are still pretty fresh for us, huh? My W and I passed the one month since D-day anniversery on Sunday. I tried to focus on the progress we've made. It truly seems like we've come a long way in a short time. Then again, there is so much work and struggle up ahead of us. I wish I could see what life will be like 3 months, a year, 5 years down the road. Will it all have been worth it? I guess that hope is what keeps us going.
Quoting sage: Sounds like things continue to go well for you...you sound very strong and sure and calm. Good stuff.
Yeah...maybe not. Yesterday was my 1st bad day in awhile. My W had an afternoon of errands which, of course she hadn't told me anything about. I called her around 5:30 and she didn't answer. It seems sometimes that her cellphone always happens to be off just when I call. She finally returned my call around 7. Her explanations about where she'd been were plausible, but a little fishy (one of them was that the salon she goes to was out of the shampoo she likes so she drove about 20 minutes away, just to get it at another salon. Oooooooh K)
In the current atmosphere, trying to trust and believe while knowing about the "secret" cellphone, I have generally been successful. But yesterday it just seemed too much, and I couldn't hide my, what is it, depression? fear? anger? from her after I got home. I didn't lose my temper, but I did ask her the details about where she was, and why she couldn't take my call. I came close to confronting her about the secret cellphone, but didn't. She didn't get angry, as she has in the past when I've questioned her like that. In her way, I guess, she tried to be reassuring, and answer my questions. She ended it with, "Don't be unhappy. I like it when you're happy". Yeah, I like it when I'm happy too. So why don't you try harder to make me happy, I thought.
Later, she made several gestures that were sweet, coming over to hold my hand on the couch, lay on my lap, stuff like that. With her, it's always the gestures that I look for - she verbalizes so little. I guess she is at least as afraid as I am of saying the wrong thing. The difference is, she knows what the right thing to say would be. I never really know. Do I say ILY, or not? Do I voice my fears, or not? Do I confront her about the cellphone, or not? Do I call her during the day, or not?
Other than one time this last weekend, when I tried but couldn't find the new cellphone, I haven't done any snooping. I do find that I don't think about it quite as much, unless my W does something to start up my suspicions again. At some point, I'm going to have to confront her about it, but I don't know when that will be.
I think I've been more than reasonable in giving her some space. But "reasonable" really has nothing to do with it. The real question (regarding not only the cellphone confrontation issue, but also almost everything else) is how to be most effective in achieving my most imporant goal. So maybe I should figure it out, and state it here. I think it is this: to get my marriage back, wholely, and to do it as quickly as possible, while not sacrificing too much of myself in the process. Is it still just one goal if I use a bunch of commas and add extra phrases? OK, maybe that's really 4 goals: 1. get my marriage back, 2. get it back wholely, 3. get it back as quickly as possible, 4. without sacrificing too much of myself in the process. What do you think, too many goals? Should I just go with #1?
I think the answer to such questions as, do I confront?, lies in the question, will this further my goals? It helps me to think in this way, but the answers still aren't always clear.
Regarding forgiveness. Do you think it's a process, or an all-at-once thing? I mean, do you forgive some things today, but hold some things back for another day? Or do you wait until you are ready to forgive everything? Does any of it hinge on the S's remorse? Did you speak it to him, in some sort of formal way? This post is long enough. Forgiveness is its own topic. But I'd like to hear your thoughts.
Hi Brian, Try not to worry about the ILY, when your W finally says it, it will totally take you by surprise & make your heart skip a beat. I have only heard it about 3 times since we have been working on things (which is more than I heard in years) Like I said before that is not unusual. I still tell my H that ILH (not as often) that's totally unnatural for me. But I feel like I need to sometimes I don't want h to think I don't. I know what you mean about looking good. My H complains because I have to put on my makeup & fix my hair before I leave the house, but I do try to put on makeup everyday even if I'm not going anywhere. Your right I do think h needs to think alittle bit. Well the cell phone bill came today, I was so nervous about opening it. To my surprise there was only 1 call to the OW. (compared to 70-90) I was hoping to see 0, but I guess only on call tells me something. (Right?) For all I know it could have had to do w work or the fact that s was calling h all the time & leaving messages, I don't know. And the fact that s won't be working w h anymore should help put me at ease even more. ( I hope) Your right we aren't to far behind eachother, it's been about 2 months for me, they have gone so much quicker than the previous 6. I worry about the future too, & do hope this is all worth it. Your going to think this is funny of me, but I kiss my H goodbye before work everyday. (that was not the case when all the crap was going on) the other day my H came to me for a kiss,(OMG) I was happy about it, but isn't it funny how the stupid little things matter to us now? Like things were taken for granted before. Well I hope you have a good night. Take care. ~~K~~
Well, I backslid bigtime last night. W was running a little late coming home from work so I called her. She said she would be another 15 minutes, but didn't get home until 45 minutes later, mumbling something about unexpected traffic. Yeah, maybe. But of course, I suspected that she was talking to the OG on the "secret" cellphone. So, I decided to see if I could access her account online. Sure enough, I could (these cell companies make it a little too easy). I found out that since she got the phone 11 days ago, she's used it 185 minutes total (or roughly 17 minutes a day). I won't be able to see telephone numbers and dates until the end of the month, but my very strong hunch is that pretty much all of those minutes have been spent talking to him (she has another cellphone for all other calls). It takes no genius to see that she is still lying to me.
I struggled not to confront her, but started losing the battle with myself. When we went to bed, I asked her if she wanted to have a "serious" talk. She said "no". I asked her when she thought it would be a good idea, she said (only half-jokingly) "never". I pointed out that she had said that never being able to haveg R talks was one of the things that was wrong with me, several months ago. She said, "Yeah, I should be careful what I wish for". She then said that our R talks always seem to end in an argument (I don't think that is really true, but I guess it's her perception), and that she didn't want to do anything that would screw things up for our Las Vegas trip. I told her that I didn't think we could keep avoiding our issues for much longer, but I dropped the discussion, temporarily.
But... I woke up around 3am, feeling awful, with the cellphone thing driving me nuts. Sensing that she was awake (she was), I told her that I wanted to talk. She didn't really want to, but didn't get angry, as she has in the past. I told her that I thought that she'd been talking to the OG (I didn't say anything specifically about the cellphone and didn't say it as if I knew for sure), and that I thought that she may also be seeing him. She immediately denied it. Without responding to her, I told her that I thought that she had talked to him last night. I asked her how long it had been since she had seen him. She said, "it's been a long time since I've talked to him or seen him". I didn't ask her to be more specific (what would be the point?).
Here's where it got interesting. In my worst DBing fashion, I asked her if she still wanted to stay married to me. She said, "Yes. Absolutely.", with emphasis on both words. She then moved over, hugged me, and laid on top of me, her head on my shoulder. We drifted off to sleep like that. Later, she changed positions, but pulled my arm around her. We slept intertwined the rest of the night. I gave her a kiss (as I always do) as I left for work, and she woke up and gave me a big hug (which she usually doesn't).
So, what to make of all this. She's talking to him, maybe not with the frequency that it was before D-day, but probably daily or nearly daily. My best guess (and it's only a guess) is that she justifies it to herself by thinking that as long as she doesn't sleep with him, continuing this valued "friendship" is OK. Although I have no way of knowing for sure one way or the other, I don't think she's seeing him. If I thought she was seeing him, I would feel compelled to confront her.
I have to keep reminding myself how great it's been in general between us over the last week and a half. She hasn't been faking it, at least not all of it. And the strength with which she said, "Yes. Absolutely", was surprising. But the cellphone and the lies just don't square with this stuff. To say I'm baffled and unsure what to do would be an understatement.
Somehow, through it all, I came away reassured. I'm being lied to, bald-faced, but I still think the progress and the good things that are happening are outweighing the bad (although that balance could flip-flop pretty easily). So here's my plan, until somebody convinces me to do otherwise: I'm going to wait until after the Vegas trip, at least, for the big cellphone confrontation. The June cellphone bill will be available then, and I'll be able to see if the calls have stopped, or at least decreased in frequency. On the basis of that, I'll decide what to do next. Until then, I'll DB away, and do my best to be that cheerful, helpful, lovable guy that I think can make her happy. What do you think?
Kim, great news on that cellphone bill of your H's. And you are right - the stupid little things do matter now, much more than I ever would have thought they would. Keep doing those things for your H, it sounds like he's responding more and more.
). Anyway, I think for me forgiveness needs to be a totally separate event. It hasn't been easy for me to get there but I think I'm there....I can see how our m. could have felt painful and unbearable to him in some ways...I still can't make the leap to having an a....but, well, that's just me.