We are on a downward spiral

[Bagheera]

....but how do you get someone who sees no need to change themselves to do something?

Simply put, you can either use a Carrot or a Stick, or both simultaneously.

The Carrot

Remember ye olde Marriage Catch-22 from Michele's book? For most women, a strong emotional connection is required in order for them to feel a desire for sex. If the emotional connection is not there, it ain't happenin'. From what you've reported, your wife allegedly "despises you" and only offers up criticisms or complaints when you want to have a serious discussion with her. That says to me that the emotional connection is no longer there, and that there are a few years of anger and resentment there in its place. Since you have your own load of anger and resentment, the two of you are entrenched, and no one is actively trying to meet the other partner's needs, because your own needs are not being met. Stalemate.

The solution is to do one of Michele's 180's and start doing what you can to swallow your pride and start meeting your wife's needs, even if your own are not being met. As I said in Dance's thread, this is NOT easy to do, especially in the beginning. It feels very one-sided. However, the only person you have the power to change is yourself, so that's where you start. Luckily, the positive feedback-loop nature of marriage means that, eventually, your wife will be forced to respond positively to your positive efforts, perhaps after an initial bout of skepticism about whether you really mean it, and aren't just "trying to get laid."

You may be so discouraged, angry, and resentful yourself right now that there isn't much you're willing to do to meet her needs. That's OK: set some small, realistic goals (see the SSM section on goal setting), and start with what you can do. You may have tried some things in the past, which didn't work for whatever reason, but don't give it up -- go back over all those complaints that you've been hearing over the years, pick one area, and set about fixing it. Once you're doing that in a sustained fashion (it's become a habit), go on to another item. At some point, she'll realize that she doesn't have much of a complaints list anymore and will start to appreciate it AND look for ways to return the favor -- there's your opening.

The Stick

Both DanceQueen and NOPkins mentioned this; that is, to quietly and firmly deliver an ultimatum to the effect that the status quo is no longer acceptable, and while you are willing to make significant changes to meet her needs, she must be willing to do the same thing for you. She must understand that a marriage in which you are both miserable for the NEXT however many years will not be tolerated -- change must occur on both your parts.

Admittedly, revealing this Stick is scary as hell to do, and it has to be absolutely honest on your part -- you have to be willing to go through with it, either way. If you don't mean it, don't say it: no bluffing permitted.

I personally used both the Carrot and the Stick, but only showed the Stick after I had proven to her that I could make significant changes myself (displayed the Carrot for a couple of months). I was only able to do either after a long period of soul-searching and a decision that (1) I refused to go another 20 years or more miserable and lonely within my own marriage, but (2) I was willing to move heaven and Earth to set things right again. In other words, I decided that it was either time to fish or go cut bait.

I don't know where you are, Near, and I absolutely do not want to push you one way or the other: it's your life, your marriage, and you have to live with the consequences. If you think that you can live with the status quo, then start making some positive changes on your own and go with the Carrot only, but if you are at the end of your rope, then your wife needs to understand that as well -- she needs to know the consequences of her inaction and apathy.

Take care,

Bagheera

[near the end]

Bagheera,
Thanks for your advice. I am not ready to walk out yet. The consequences to my kids are too high. I have reached the point where if I had to do it all over again, I would not marry her. BUT, I did.
That being said, it looks like the carrot is the only option. Unfortunately, at this point I can summon no motivation to do much beyond keeping a good friendship with her. Of course this now has me in the position of being willing to complain to others but not do much about my situation! Sad.

[Bagheera]

Unfortunately, at this point I can summon no motivation to do much beyond keeping a good friendship with her. Of course this now has me in the position of being willing to complain to others but not do much about my situation! Sad.

Not sad, Near: not at all. You are here, you are researching the topic, you are seeking advice and input regarding your situation. The next step, beyond problem analysis, is to start looking for potential steps that you can bring yourself to take toward improving the situation. I understand that you're in a place where there isn't much motivation to work on the problem in a one-sided way, but as DanceQueen says, one of you has to make the first move, even if those first moves are quite small. Progress is progress, or to quote Carl Sagan "Small steps, Ellie. Small steps."

So, if you don't mind, let's brain-storm this a bit and see if there are areas in which you can make some small, doable changes. When your wife criticizes or complains to you, what is she complaining about? What does she say changed between your courtship and your marriage now? You've mentioned one thing already: finding a job that you like better and one that pays better -- what steps can you take toward reaching that goal?

Perhaps the easiest thing to start working on (at least it was for me) is Michele's Housework Solution from the SSM book. A lot of guys out there don't understand the connection between the amount of work they do around the house and their sex life (else they'd be doing a lot more housework!). Speaking generically, one of primary ways in which a woman feels loved is if she feels supported and cared for. This is especially true for a mother with children, who feels like she spends her entire day caring for others: she needs to feel that there is someone who will take care of her for a change, and that role falls to you. What you don't want is to be is just another mouth for her to feed, another set of clothes to wash, or someone else to pick up after. See John Gray's classic Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus book for a better discussion of this than I can do in a paragraph.

I've also found that this is a solution that I can work on even when I'm angry or frustrated -- it's therapeutic. Rather than retreating to my office to brood (or "pout," as my wife calls it, although I don't pout, really...I don't... ), I'll grab a brush and cleanser and take it out on a toilet somewhere. This solution may not apply to you at all, but it's a common marriage problem and where I got my own start at improving my relationship. It can also be broken down into small, easily measurable steps. For example, if she's commonly complained about the trash being full, simply take over the chore without input from her: keep the cans in the house regularly emptied and everything down to the curb on time -- one complaint taken care of, and requiring only a few minutes a day, if that.

So rather than feeling stuck and sad, Near, brain-storm with us a bit and let's see if we can start working the issue.

Best regards,

Bagheera

[DanceQueen]

Ditto Bagheera...

There were so many things my ex-h could have done to make me feel more alive, attended to, supported, loved...and any of those things, had he done them, would have made me feel more in the lovin' mood if you catch my drift...

I'm not sure that housework is the thing your wife needs from you, but if it is, then that's the easiest place to start!

Near, I know from experience how difficult it is to try to step up and be really good to her even though she isn't going to put out any effort to be good to you. I actually did that for a long time in my marriage, but it was never truly genuine. In other words, I did it, but it was only in an attempt to get a reward from him. The ONLY way to do it and actually make it work, as Bagheera is telling you, is to do it because it is the RIGHT THING to do, and not because you expect a reward. Wish I had known and understood that when I was married, and I wish I had been mature enough to give without expectation.

If you do this and make a plan for yourself of how you are going to give without expectation, IT WILL WORK! But it takes a long time and in the meantime, your needs will still go unmet. But that isn't any worse off than you are now, is it? This is basically your only chance of causing a miracle to occur in your marriage. Will you take that chance, or just be miserable until your marriage dies a slow death?

I wish you the best. I hope things can work out. It will be 100% up to you to start the process, but she WILL get on board if you do it well.

If you can realize that your wife wants and desires intimacy too, she just cannot feel it in her body right now because all fawcetts are turned "off". YOU can turn them back on. Remember though that part of why they are off was from your side of the equation. Think of yourself as a plumber with a difficult large project to do and get to work on it, and you will eventually receive rewards.

DanceQueen

[near the end]

Bagheera,

Thanks for your suggestions. I must be the exception to rule. I work a full time job and own two other businesses and still try to help out around the house. My wife hasn't had to touch a pot or pan in many years, she never touches the trash, and it is always out on time. I cook (and clean up) all of Sunday, half of Saturday and every morning before school. I am not saying that my wife does nothing, just that I am not one of those come home and grab a beer husbands. Resulting sex from self started housework 0. As a matter of fact, all of this is now an entitelment.
Me making more money would make us all happy! I am working on that now, but I am having to bury a dream to do it, so the new search has some inherent pain to it. When viewed from that perspective, it makes me regard my wife as pretty shallow. "Get rich and I'll show you my sex drive!" Chalk that up for loving me for who I am! Do these pants make my butt look fat?
Again, sorry for the negativity. I have read many books and tried many of the "tried and true" husband fixers. Cards, flowers, notes, housework, non sexual touching, space, allowing time with friends and family, trips we can't afford etc. Maybe I am missing something.

[DanceQueen]

Near...you say you've tried many of the husband fixers...but as I said in my last post...did you ever try it because it was the RIGHT THING TO DO - versus trying it to get a reward?

Please don't think I am bashing on you. This is just something I have finally learned after all of these years, and I kind of think you are missing that part of the point.

DanceQueen

[Bagheera]

I must be the exception to rule. I work a full time job and own two other businesses and still try to help out around the house.

Good for you: I knew that I was taking a shot in the dark with that example, and am happy I missed. I apologize if I offended with it.

My request remains, however:

"So, if you don't mind, let's brain-storm this a bit and see if there are areas in which you can make some small, doable changes. When your wife criticizes or complains to you, what is she complaining about? What does she say changed between your courtship and your marriage now?"

Bagheera

[near the end]

The thing I believe she would say she misses most is the multiple hour conversations we used to have on the phone. We lived an hour apart when we were dating. How can anybody do that with everything else going on? But, her two love languages are gifts and quality time. Hard to manage gifts while broke and the last pass at that did not come out so well.

[Bagheera]

The thing I believe she would say she misses most is the multiple hour conversations we used to have on the phone. We lived an hour apart when we were dating. How can anybody do that with everything else going on? But, her two love languages are gifts and quality time.

This makes sense, and gives you a place to start. To steal a line from the Rosbergs: while men and women both cite intimacy as a top love need, women generally spell intimacy T-A-L-K, while men generally spell intimacy S-E-X. The challenge that you're facing then, is how to increase the amount of quality, heart-to-heart conversation time you get, while still tending to everything else in your lives. While multiple hour conversations may not be feasible much of the time, are there some smaller, more doable steps you can take to increase the level of intimate conversation with her?

Here are some habits that we've picked up over the last few months of our 'recovery,' just to throw some suggestions out there:

(1) The daily phone call: once a day, generally around lunch time, I'll call my wife and find out how her day is going, and just let her know that I'm thinking about her while I'm at work.

(2) The daily de-brief: every day when I get home from work, I seek out my wife and we share our day with each other for about 10-30 minutes, often while she's cooking dinner or whatever. This regular, daily ritual has made a huge difference in how well we stay in tune (connected) with each other.

(3) Week-day evenings: perhaps once a week, after the last kid has gone to bed, we find something to do together, such as a board, dice, or card game. It needs to be something that makes you communicate throughout, so watching a TV show together doesn't count.

Those are the inexpensive steps, and relatively easy to turn into habit. As expenses allow you can layer in:

(4) Regular dates: particularly to places you can talk, such as over dinner. My wife and I try to go out at least twice a month (coinciding with pay-days), and would go more if we had the funds and available baby-sitters.

(5) Regular get-aways: Several of the books I've read have also mentioned taking a day or weekend away from the kids, about once a month or so, even if it's just down the road to a hotel. This is the one step we haven't been able to layer in, primarily because we have no one to farm the kids out to for that long of a time.

Again, I'm just brain-storming here and tossing out what's worked for us so far. Your thoughts, Near?

Bagheera

[near the end]

Thanks for the suggestions.
I do the daily or twice daily phone calls with the wife. We have always done this since we were first married.
The daily de-brief for us could be improved a bit. The wife is usually trying to have supper hit the table as I walk through the door so the kids have some time to digest etc before bed. This would probably be a good place to start.
Week day evenings. Again, this is probably a good one for us to work harder on. Due to our schedules we usually have between 30-45 minutes after the kids go down before we do. BUT, this is something I can change about our time spent.
Dates. Tough subject. Used to do, now can't afford. We are generally out of money within a week of payday due to extreme debt load from business and medical. This is going to sound shallow, but after multiple years of dating and my wife figuring out a way to be asleep by the time I drop off the sitter (including when times were better) this will be low on my list. I realize sex should not be the goal, but by God it sometimes shoud be the result!
Regular get aways. We have done this a few times. Often they were pretty good and resulted in three of three kids. I will not invest time or money on this until I begin to see a shift in her and our money situation. I am sorry, this one is mostly about sex. There is no other reason to get a hotel room in the same city where you live. Call me shallow, but I can stay at home and talk!