How to get past the sex thing

[kjb317]

Wow! I see some great positive things going on. I am going to tell you not to bring up the cell phone, even though I am not so sure that I could keep my mouth shut, that was always a problem for me. I'm getting better at it though. I know this is a slap in the face for you finding out that your w is contacting the OG. Let things ride for a while keep DB'ing and see what happens, it sounds like things are going great otherwise, if she sees that she will hopefully contact the OG even less or not at all(which is what you want to happen) My H got a little mad at me last because h cell kept beeping that h had a message (3) I said aren't you going to check them, H said I'm not worried about it. I said what if it's important? So h checked to see who called it was you know who (OW) I couldn't help but ask (h told me) & I asked why s calling (mind you h didn't check the messages) H said s calling to see if s getting fired I guess s been blowing off work lately( my H has that authority) I said it was just an excuse of course h got mad & said h didn't care what I thought, then I had to express the fact that I thought it was an excuse on OW part not his. He got over it I was kind of jacked all night(tried not to show it but h can read me pretty good) but I didn't say anything else about it. I wish s would just get fired.
Then h got mad this morning because my oldest did something he shouldn't have (almost daily)(he gives me (us) alot of grief) so of course we argued because h feels that I should be able to watch s(14) every second. I can't I also have a s(4), d(2). Come on. I ended up letting h be mad me be mad & just let it drop, it wasn't going to get us anywhere but in a deeper arguement. I hate the fact that I have to keep things inside because I don't want to rock the boat. Well Bri, try not to say anything just yet, in time maybe you'll be able to bring it up and talk about, maybe you won't need or want by then, I don't know. But I think things are looking up & that your feeling somewhat better &(the sex is a good thing too) ~~K~~

[sage]

Brian --

First things first..."Sage" is a childhood nickname NOT an indication of my level of wisdom -- trust me on this!

So...your question is about whether or not to confront your w, right? NOT about whether or not you should continue snooping??? (see my first post to you a few pages back for my advice in that regard).

Just my 2 cents, I wouldn't confront her. You guys are having positive interactions, are quite possibly rebuilding some good memories upon which to rebuild your marital bonds. If you tell her that you know she's still in contact with om, that you've been snooping, that you know she's recently lied to you, etc, well, I think that will pull the rug out from under the progress that you've made.

Here's my add-on suggestion. Stop snooping. I think it will eventually undermine the progress that YOU think you've made...not just w. It's hard enough to DB without the added anxiety/suspicion/etc of checking up on your w.

I know that you don't necessarily feel comfortable doing that...could you try to implement it for a week? 2 weeks?

I'm glad to read of the good times that you and w. have shared of late....

Sage

[4btr]

Brian (and Sage),

I know that stopping the snooping is a DB recommendation, but how will you know if she's stopped contact with the OM unless you snoop? So, let's assume that your DB efforts continue to succeed and your W seems to recommit to your M. How do you begin to trust again without knowing that you're no longer dealing with lies and deceit? Are you saying you just have to trust again without ever having the wayward spouse have to demonstrate trustworthiness? I don't want to hijack this thread, but it seems that Brian and I are dealing with some of the same issues here with our Ws. I realize that snooping is controlling and can result in a lot of resentment, but it is a crutch I can't seem to do entirely without now that there is no trust. Before the affair, I was never a snooper (never saw the need), but now I'm often tempted. So for you veterans of affairs and DBing, how do you eventually learn to trust the words and actions of your spouse after infidelity? And Brian, if this is not a question you want to talk about on your thread, let me know and I'll post elsewhere.

dcr

[sage]

Hi dcr -- Nice to meet you (but sorry it's under these circumstances!). I'm gonna ASSume that Brian won't mind a continued discussion here on his thread....

Brian (and Sage),

I know that stopping the snooping is a DB recommendation, but how will you know if she's stopped contact with the OM unless you snoop?

How will you know even if you DO snoop? NOT finding something doesn't prove anything, right? Maybe it just means that you didn't look in the right place or that s/he has gotten better about hiding stuff or whatever. I'm not trying to make you feel worse (really!) but the absence of finding "evidence" ISN'T evidence...it's just an impetus to keep searching until you find SOMETHING. And, it seems as though if you look long and hard enough, you will find SOMETHING -- maybe not evidence of the affair -- but something that looks suspicious or that they didn't tell you about, or whatever.

The only outcome of snooping that seems to satisfy the snooper is to actually find something.

So, let's assume that your DB efforts continue to succeed and your W seems to recommit to your M. How do you begin to trust again without knowing that you're no longer dealing with lies and deceit?

Are you really trusting if you need "proof" that nothing's going on?

Are you saying you just have to trust again without ever having the wayward spouse have to demonstrate trustworthiness?

Not at all -- your spouse SHOULD demonstrate trustworthiness -- but what does that have to do with your snooping? Your spouse isn't demonstrating anything then, are they? YOU'RE the one demonstrating at that point! Trustworthiness from your mate is when they call you to tell you where they are, or when they tell you the most minute detail of their day or when they reassure you without you even asking or ...

I realize that snooping is controlling and can result in a lot of resentment, but it is a crutch I can't seem to do entirely without now that there is no trust.

So, there's the dilemma....the very actions that you're using to try to make yourself feel better can lead to resentment and feeling like crap (even if you don't find something, don't you feel lousy after snooping? I do!)

My recommendation is that you find something else that you can use as support for your PMA -- exercise, meditation, a new hobby, etc. (not to mention DB'ing of course!!!)

Before the affair, I was never a snooper (never saw the need), but now I'm often tempted. So for you veterans of affairs and DBing, how do you eventually learn to trust the words and actions of your spouse after infidelity?

It takes time. And hard work on your part. And on theirs (hopefully!). And it takes throwing caution to the wind and somehow believing that no matter what happens, trusting is the right thing to do....AND, it takes two steps forward and one step back...over and over and over and over again. I'm still working through it myself.....

And, in NO way do I mean to make this sound easy. It blows.

Sage

[lostlove]

And, in NO way do I mean to make this sound easy. It blows.

you can say that again!!!

the only thing I can add to sage's awesome words of wisdom (ya know what...she doesn't even know how truly awesome a dbr she is) is to check out one of the "stories" in dr...off hand I don't recall wich one's they are I'll check and get back to ya with the specifics but the gist is this...

things weren't great...w discovers h is involved in a bit of an ea with a f coworker...obviously w is not happy about this and wants that r to end...but she let's it go...she works on herself and her attitude with h..making things possitive and bettering the r in ways that she can...she wants to know about ow but doesn't ask..as time goes by..h eventually takes her out to dinner and whala...let's her know that he no longer speaks to ow and that he loves her and is happy...tra la la they go off into the sunset and there ya go.

what if w IS still talking to om...will asking her or looking for evidence get her to stop?? nope..I went that route when I first discovered my h's ea...supposedly it ended..I asked...I called ow...I pressured h..he moved out..asked for d...yada yada yada...I got db...h came home after a 6 month sep...I try to keep my inquiries about ow to a minimum if I even speak of her at all...I will admit to snooping on occassion...and can tell you that h and I are much better off when I don't...even if I don't find anything remotely susspisous...things are just better when I leave it alone.

LL

[4btr]

Ah, the voice of experience. I know that what you say is true, Sage, intellectually speaking. Of course if I need to verify through snooping I don't trust. However, and this is just a small example, email snooping has verified (although infrequently) her continued no contact with most recent OM. This is not simply absence of evidence, because I know that doesn't equate with real evidence. In my case, my W has a close friend that she tells all to (more than she shares with me). She confided to that friend that she hasn't seen OM since d-day and I took that as a very positive sign.

I know that for the most part, snooping is destructive (mostly to my own sanity), for all the reasons you outline. Like an addict, however, I have a hard time stopping cold turkey. My personal goal has been to reduce the snooping over time. In positive, measurable terms, I have been trying to go at least 3 days per week without any snoop attempts (so far so good). If I can manage this for another week or so, I will increase the no snooping days to 5 for 2 more weeks, then hopefully I can rid myself of it entirely in 1 more month.

Personally, my W has been doing the other stuff you suggested and it has helped, but now says she resents me for having to do these things (let me know where she is, who she's with, etc.). I think we moved into that area too soon. She's obviously not ready to show that she's trustworty yet. I suppose I'll just have to keep on DBing until she's ready.

You're right. This blows!

dcr

[eskb]

Arrrgh! You guys are taking all the fun out of snooping! Alrighty then. Here's a mini-vow not to snoop until Saturday, at least. That's not 2 weeks, or even a week, but it's longer than I've managed to go since the bomb hit almost 4 weeks ago. For me, no snooping will mean mainly no checking her new cellphone, but also no checking her email, no checking the computer keystroke recorder file, no checking the phone "minutes used" online, and no calling her just to find out where she is. Just to let you know how nuts this is making me, some steps I haven't taken, but have thought about include installing hidden cameras and microphones in her car and at home, and hiring a private investigator. It's a good thing I commute so far to work, otherwise I'd probably be tempted to drive past the OG's house to check for her car being there.

I know that I really should stop it. Sage and dcr, you are probably right about the effect that the snooping has on me and my own attitudes. At this point, if all she is doing is calling him, I can probably handle that, at least a little while longer.

Yesterday evening was a nice followup to Sunday. My W was very affectionate again, as we sat together on the couch and watched TV for a couple of hours until bedtime, proactively taking my hand, or putting her head on my shoulder, or giving me "real" kisses (ya know, like a wife, not a mother). Very cool, and definitely better than even, say, a week ago.

All of which sends the gotta-snoop demons away, temporarily. After all, she can't be calling the OG, and absolutely can't be seeing him if she's being like this, right? Right! Probably. Maybe. Or, maybe not. The anxiety has been building slowly throughout the day. It's worst during the times of day when I know that she could be seeing him. The thought of that makes me ill.

I want to trust the changes I see in my W, I really do. If she hadn't been such a convincing liar the last few months... But no, it's not even that, really. These changes ARE real, I'm not imagining them, she's not faking them. So what is it? I think it's that I fear that there is a ceiling to how much better she is ever going to feel about me, especially with him still in the picture. I'm still always going to be the guy with whom she has a lot of baggage, the guy with whom there are going to be some bad memories, disagreements about finances, the kids, household chores, etc (although I'm trying to avoid pretty much any and all disagreement with her, now). He is still Mr. Fantasy, the guy that she can talk to about anything, the guy with whom there are no problems, no bad memories, only seemingly great potential.

So what am I saying? I guess it is just that as long as she still calls him, I am unsure that I can compete, that every minor flaw or problem will be amplified and exagerated, that conversation with me will be mundane and boring by comparison. And I don't even want to think about what she may think about the comparison in the sexual realm.

Reading my own words just now, I see a lack of confidence in both myself and in DBing. I don't think I have ever suffered a fundamental lack of confidence in myself, but then again, these last few months have not been self-esteem building times.

I know I should trust DBing. I've read so many success stories, such as yours. And as successful as you all have been, it's clear that these anxiety issues linger on. So I'll try to cut myself some slack, and let it go a little bit.

You were also unanimous that I should not confront my W about the cellphone. It's clear to me too. I need to give her that space and it would be counterproductive to do otherwise.

Did you ever see the movie City Slickers? In it, the Billy Crystal character asks the Jack Palance character the meaning of life. "One thing", was his response. "Yes, but what is that one thing?", Crystal says, and he spends much of the movie trying to pry the answer out of Palance. Later, he realizes that the one thing is different for each person, and that for him, the answer is his wife and family. That guy is me, too.

Brian

[eskb]

dcr, Sage, lostlove -

I was in the middle of constructing my last post and didn't see this latest discussion until after I had finished it. No, of course I don't mind your having this discussion here. Hijack all you want. I love to read all of this.

I think a lot like dcr. I never used to be a snooper, never felt the need, always trusted her implicitly. However, since D-day, I have had moments in which snooping, and not finding anything, has brought me considerable relief. On the other hand, Sage is right. Most of the time, snooping and not finding anything doesn't fully satisfy me and doesn't really prove anything. I wish I could get my W to do some of the things Sage mentioned that would help show her trustworthiness, but even though I've mentioned how much I would appreciate it, she mostly hasn't done them.

Brian

[eskb]

Kim

I wanted to get back to you about your situation. I totally agree that it's unlikely that the OW was just calling your H to discuss nothing but work. It probably is just an excuse to call him. She's a b**** for doing it. But, realize that your H is being honest enough to tell you who it is. He's probably getting disgusted with her, and may be feeling a little stalked. Obviously, if there were anything going on between them, they would be trying to hide it better. So, be his ally in this. Be mad at her, but do it without being mad at him.

Also, it occurs to me that it may be difficult, legally, for him to fire her. I can imagine a sexual harrassment lawsuit, unless the grounds for firing her are absolutely rock solid (I'm not a lawyer, but I've heard of such things). So that might be a factor in his thinking too.

Brian

[kjb317]

Hi, how's it going, have you been successful in not snooping & confronting about the cell phone? I had a little bit of a backslide sort of. Last night H came home said h would have been home earlier but h got into long discussion. I said with who? The OW & some other co worker(about the problems w our S14) h didn't say what the talk was about w OW & I just couldn't bring myself to ask, I'm not sure why. But I was alittle distant & h noticed, & got alittle upset (sort of) but later texted my cell "love u" which made me feel better those words don't come to often(never did)(so it's not unusual) I just don't know, I trust there is nothing going on, but I worry it could so happen again if h feels I have so called changed or we have gone back to our old ways so to speak. Today h wore jeans to work instead of work pants (today was supposed to be h day off but h had to go in to help out anyway (we need the extra money & it's not h normal day off anyway) So now I'm all in a panic thinking h going to go out after work & w the discussion last night w OW, it makes me wonder??? I thought I was handling all this pretty well but I'm thinking maybe not as much as I thought. Any suggestions???
I hope all is still well w you, you sound like such a nice guy. ~~K~~