One of the things I keep focusing on is trying not to become bitter about all of this. I keep thinking how she didn't have to have an A to get my attention. Actually, when she told me how unhappy she was 3 months ago (I didn't find out about the A until 3 weeks ago) I immediately bought DB and started on working to change myself. I started really loving her more and more intensely, even as she was pulling away, and even though some of that may have been simply because I feared losing her. Even after I found out about the A, I have not lost that love for her.
But I wonder how long it will be before it starts to ebb, if she continues contact with the OG and continues to push me away. I agree that the one who loves least has the greater control. But as much as I'd really like to gain more control, I don't want it to come only because I love her less. I keep hoping that she can love me again as much as I love her now, before I lose my love for her. It shouldn't be like a teeter-totter, where the only way the love given by one spouse can be high is if the love given by the other is low.
I have read many of the threads on this board. In some cases, the cheated spouse continues to love the cheater right through reconciliation (or D). But there are a few cases, especially for some in which the reconciliation process drags on and on, in which the cheated spouse becomes bitter, and moves on with life, and this seems to spur the cheater to want to come back. This puts the cheated spouse in a position of power, but the overall situation still sucks. I don't want that to be me.
During our argument last night, I asked her why things for her have changed since I found out about her A. You see, she had been coming back to me, in a very real sense. The DBing was working. She had been getting more loving, nicer, and more physical with me in the weeks before I found out. Things have certainly regressed since D-day. But when you think about it, what has really changed for her, in terms of her attitude towards me? I mean, setting aside for a moment her feelings for the OG, why would the revelation of the A make her feel worse about me? I was actually, relatively speaking, extremely understanding about it. Sure, I ranted, raged, cried, vented, asked a zillion questions, etc, for a couple of days, but not many. Actually, she told me that I was so calm about it, she keeps waiting for the other shoe to drop. And in the days since, I don't think that I've brought it up that often (again, relatively speaking), or tried to make her feel bad. Strangely, the revelation of the A has not really diminished my love for her, but it seems to have diminished her feelings for me. You'd think it would be the other way around. Anyway, I asked her about it. She said that she thought that we fought and argued so much more now that we did just before D-day. Well, some of that's to be be expected, don't ya think, I said.
Today, thinking back about it, I realize that she just gave me a big clue. I need to go back to what was working in the weeks before D-day. I need to be (or act as if I'm) happy, mostly stop the R talk, plan dates and family outings, and reduce the pressure on her. I have also mostly, but not entirely, cut out the snooping (this is really hard for me). This will cut out many arguments, and these days the snooping generally leads to suspicion only, not hard evidence. She knows that this doesn't mean that it's OK to contact the OG, and knows that there could be real consequences if I find out she's been with him again. But I need to trust the untrustworthy, in order to realize the potential down the road.
Quoting eskb: Today, thinking back about it, I realize that she just gave me a big clue. I need to go back to what was working in the weeks before D-day. I need to be (or act as if I'm) happy, mostly stop the R talk, plan dates and family outings, and reduce the pressure on her. I have also mostly, but not entirely, cut out the snooping (this is really hard for me). This will cut out many arguments, and these days the snooping generally leads to suspicion only, not hard evidence. She knows that this doesn't mean that it's OK to contact the OG, and knows that there could be real consequences if I find out she's been with him again. But I need to trust the untrustworthy, in order to realize the potential down the road.
Brian
Brian -- YES! Wonderfully wise words from you! The essence of DB'ing!
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Hi Bri, I sent you a reply to your last post, for some reason it's not on there. Oh, well I just didn't want you to think I was ignoring you. I think it was good DB'ing on your part as far as getting back to the way things were before I think that would be a good start. I know how crazy it makes things when things are so up and down, but I think that is probably part of the whole process unfortunately. I hope your having a better day today. ~~K~~
More confusion. This morning, while looking for an item I had misplaced (I wasn't snooping), I found my W's cellphone under the seat of her car. Normally she keeps it in her purse. I couldn't resist the urge, and checked the phone to see who she'd been calling or had called her. She had erased all of her call lists. I put the phone back, and didn't talk to her about it. I checked her cellphone minutes used, online, and they are not that high (especially as compared to before D-day).
As I said in my last post, the snooping now seems to lead to suspicions, but not hard evidence. Do I think she has called the OG in the last few days? Yeah, more likely than not, but if so, they haven't been the big long calls. If I confronted her, would she admit it? Not sure, but in any case I can't imagine any good outcome. I don't want to hear another empty promise, and she doesn't want to give one. And it would poison the atmosphere for the next few days.
The next big question: has she seen him (since D-day)? This one makes me even crazier. I don't think she has. She's been pretty busy lately, and she hasn't come up with any excuses to be gone. I think that she thinks that as long as she doesn't see him, that she is being faithful, and that that's enough. Who knows? She may also be calling him (but not seeing him) to string him along so that if things don't work our with me, she'll have a great fallback position, so to speak. I can't get inside her head, and of course, she's not doing much talking about it.
The night before last, we went out onto the balcony at dusk, and sat in the swing together and talked (not about the R) and held hands. It was nice. Then yesterday after she got home from work she said she was tired and basically avoided me before bed. This morning she came in to kiss me goodbye before work (unusual for her), and told me she was going to try to come home a little early. So many mixed messages (and I overanalyze every last one!).
Today I'll spend with our boys (6 and 7). I have a great relationship with them, but I haven't spent enough time with them lately. I've been too obsessed trying to figure out this whole M thing.
Last night while driving with the boys, my 7 yo asked me if I'd ever been divorced. That certainly came out of left field. I think the question was a coincidence. I don't think they suspect that anything is wrong between their mother and me. Still, it really made me pause and consider. Every time I think for a fleeting moment that maybe going through this hell is not worth it and that maybe it's time to bail out, I think of how awful this would be for them. Somehow, some way, this M has to stay intact and become a good example for them. When I feel like a doormat and tired of being the one doing all the R work, it helps a little to consider that all of my efforts are not just being done for me and my M, they are being done for my boys.
Because of our work schedules, tomorrow is going to be the 1st full day my W and I will be together without company in about 2 weeks. Let me vow here to do all that I can do to make it a good day.
Hi Bri, I understand about the confusion and mixed signals all to well. It isn't really like that much now but I remember all to well, like it was yesterday. Maybe your W cell phone fell out of h purse & ended up under the seat.??? Possible but I know how you feel. I know you want to know but I wouldn't bring it up I think you are making progress & that might upset her & possibly send right back to talking to the OG. I wouldn't want that to happen. And don't forget think baby steps the kiss in the morning & she'll try to be home early. I know those a little things but good non the less. And you had a good night on the balcony, that sounds good too. Take it slow, be h friend it sounds like things are turning around. I know I think it stinks that our S are the ones that screwed up & we are the ones trying to piece things back together it doesn't seem fair does it. And if you don't think your W has gone to see the OG go with that feeling, our gut is usually right, I know you want h to get over h, but you can't force it, just try to back to the way things were before you found out make it even better, don't forget s gave the big hint. I hope I help a little. Now I have ? for you, My Anniversary is Thur. that is usually the night we go out but the other chef is on vac. so my H has to work, I already gave h an early present that h needed before our A. Should I make a big deal about our A or just give h a card and leave it that? I never know what to do I am alwqays afraid I do to little or to much, never know which way to go. It almost seems kind of strange for us to celebrate our A this year after all h has put me through I almost would like to skip it this year, because I think I'll feel better about it next year. Make any sense???Well please let me know how things are going, I'll look forward to hearing what a wonderful full day you two spent together, you vowed to make it a good day. Go for it. ~~~K~~~
Before I get started with a marathon post, I wanted to reply to yours. 1st, yes, you do help me, and I always appreciate it. About your anniversary, I would suggest just getting another small gift (like chocolates you could share together) and a nice card, maybe adding a few heartfelt words. I wouldn't go overboard, but I wouldn't ignore it either. What you say in the card will mean the most to him. If he isn't going to be around in the evening, maybe give it to him 1st thing in the morning instead. Good luck and let us know how it goes.
This is going to be a long post. Thanks in advance to any who slog through it all. I had a great and terrible day yesterday, and I need the advice of Kim, Sage (what a perfectly appropriate name!), and any others who can help. You’ll see the reasons for my confusion.
1st, let's start with the terrible, to get it over with. Yesterday morning, while snooping (unfortunately, I’ve found that I’m damn good at it, and I find that I have such a need to know), I found a new cellphone that my W had hidden in her car. She had ordered it on Thursday, after we had argued on Wednesday. She had accused me of constantly checking up on her. I really hadn’t been checking up on her that much, but now it’s clear why she was so concerned about it – she hasn’t stopped the contact with the OG. The cellphone bill is being sent to the OG’s house. She received the phone on Friday. She made 2 short calls to the OG on Saturday, received one from him, and also had 7 missed calls from him (while she was working).
Several things are clear. 1. She has been in regular contact with him. I don’t know if she has seen him since D-day (more on that in a minute). 2. She is willing to go to some trouble and expense to make it happen (she probably had to make a year-long commitment for the phone service). 3. She wants to continue the contact more than she fears the consequences of my finding out.
Obviously, this was devastating and terrible. My 1st instinct was to confront her immediately. And I think that if I did and demanded that she stop all contact, give up the cellphone, etc., she would again promise to do just that. The problem, of course, would be that it would be another lie, made only to placate me. I don’t think she would stop the contact, any more than she did before. And I want her to make the decision to stop of her own free will, her own decision. Also, I had vowed to make Sunday a good day (thanks for reminding me, Kim), and it was to be our only full day together for another week. So I decided not to confront her, at least for now.
So why was it also a great day? Let me backtrack to Saturday night. She came home from work a little early, as she had said she might. We watched a video, and she ended up falling asleep in my arms. After the movie, I woke her up, intending nothing more than to go to bed in our room. But one thing led to another, and we ended up making love on the couch. Very nice.
We woke up on Sunday and cuddled a little before getting up. We made breakfast together and ate it on the swing on the balcony. Then we talked and cuddled out there for awhile. Again, very nice. Then she went to take a shower.
That’s when I snooped and found the phone. It took me a few minutes to stop shaking and calm down. I decided to have a “gentle” R talk with her. After she finished dressing, she came over to where I was and sat down. I asked her if she thought we were going to make it through all this. She said yes, that she was starting to feel better about us and thought we would get through it. We discussed how volatile the situation is right now, and how we both blow up at each other too easily these days. I talked about how worried I was about her contacting the OG (I didn’t tell her what I knew), how I didn’t think our M could improve if she was contacting him, and how I think that being in contact with him will inevitably lead to sleeping with him again, and a continued full-blown A. I also told her that I hated the idea that ultimately I would be forced to make a decision I really didn’t want to have to make. I said it in this way to imply that kicking her out of the house and telling the kids, family and friends would be the consequence of her sleeping with him again (I’ve said as much before), but I was trying to find a more gentle way of saying it. I asked her if she understood. She said, “yes, of course”, and put her arms around me.
I also asked her if she had been in contact with or seen the OG. She denied it of course. I don’t know why I asked. I knew that she would deny it. There was really no point, other than to observe her as she lied.
One thing she said, however, really caught my attention. She said that it wasn’t so much that she wanted to see the OG or be with him, it was more that she really missed talking to him, like it would be if any other good friend had suddenly gone out of her life. Could that be a sign that she has, in fact, not seen him, but just wants to talk to him (not that even that is OK)? Or is my generally optimistic nature reading too much into that? Again, who knows.
Anyway, it got better. We talked about going away on a short trip together to Las Vegas, maybe at the end of this month, if we can arrange babysitting. Before we were married, we used to take such trips regularly. But not arranging such trips during our M is one of the things that she has blamed me for (rightly), that have resulted in her unhappiness. We also talked about other plans of ours. It felt good to be discussing the future, a future in which it is assumed we are together. The R talk was about as good as it could have been, given the subjects we discussed, and given what I knew.
We then went to a party down the block. While there, we held hands and she came over to sit on my lap after we had been separated for awhile. I told her how beautiful she was and she smiled and seemed really appreciative of the compliment. It’s not flattery, she really is beautiful, but how rarely I’ve told her that over the last 8 years.
After the party, which finished mid-afternoon, we went home and sat down. She read a magazine and I dozed in her lap. When I woke up, I started rubbing her leg, and we ended up making love in the spare bedroom. She was very into it, and it was very, very nice. I probably shouldn’t make sex into more than it is – for all I know she could have been thinking about the OG the whole time – but twice within 24 hours is very unusual for us (at least lately), and I felt very connected to her.
We then went with our boys into the pool, and she was again very affectionate, sitting on my lap on the steps. Later, we were laying out and drinking margaritas, and I noticed that she had her engagement ring on. She had taken both her engagement and wedding rings off some time ago, and had asked me not to pressure her into wearing them until she is “ready”. So what does wearing one ring mean? That she is now half-committed? Who knows, and I didn’t ask. I did ask, however, when she had put it on, and she answered “earlier today”. I didn’t want to make too big a deal of it, so I just said, “that’s really nice, sweetheart”, and left it at that.
Later on, we went out for a quick dinner and to see the movie Bruce Almighty. It was very funny, it felt good to laugh so much with her. I felt like a teenager, we held hands, and cuddled close together. Again, very nice.
To wrap up the day (no, we didn’t have sex again, we were both pretty tired), she came to bed in a rather racy pajama top that I had given to her a few years ago. She had never worn it much, and generally wears something much more conservative. Maybe it didn’t mean anything to her, but it seemed somehow very sweet to me, and I commented on how I liked it.
Overall, it would have been a day that I would put into my overall Top 5 List (have you ever seen the movie High Fidelity? Great flick), if I hadn’t discovered the cellphone (other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?).
So now, my dilemma. Should I confront her about the cellphone? When, or under what circumstances? Or, should I just continue to try to DB, and not tell her what I know? My inclination is to wait and see how much contact they have (she has made snooping very easy), and not confront her right away. Things between us are very fragile right now. I can’t follow up a day like yesterday with a confrontation today. On the other hand, no matter how good yesterday was, it was only one day (the cellphone is probably for one year!). I don’t think I can ignore it forever, or for even, say, one month.
So I am soliciting any and all opinions and advice, although I have no right to expect that anyone has taken the time to read this whole post, given its length. Actually, it was worth it for me to gather my thoughts together, even if no one responds.
I recopied the post above, so that it would be more readable. I hadn't realized that quotation marks, dashes, and apostrophes don't translate from Microsoft Word, for whatever reason.
This is going to be a long post. Thanks in advance to any who slog through it all. I had a great and terrible day yesterday, and I need the advice of Kim, Sage (what a perfectly appropriate name!), and any others who can help. You'll see the reasons for my confusion.
1st, let's start with the terrible, to get it over with. Yesterday morning, while snooping (unfortunately, I've found that I'm damn good at it, and I find that I have such a need to know), I found a new cellphone that my W had hidden in her car. She had ordered it on Thursday, after we had argued on Wednesday. She had accused me of constantly checking up on her. I really hadn't been checking up on her that much, but now it's clear why she was so concerned about it - she hasn't stopped the contact with the OG. The cellphone bill is being sent to the OG's house. She received the phone on Friday. She made 2 short calls to the OG on Saturday, received one from him, and also had 7 missed calls from him (while she was working).
Several things are clear. 1. She has been in regular contact with him. I don't know if she has seen him since D-day (more on that in a minute). 2. She is willing to go to some trouble and expense to make it happen (she probably had to make a year-long commitment for the phone service). 3. She wants to continue the contact more than she fears the consequences of my finding out.
Obviously, this was devastating and terrible. My 1st instinct was to confront her immediately. And I think that if I did and demanded that she stop all contact, give up the cellphone, etc., she would again promise to do just that. The problem, of course, would be that it would be another lie, made only to placate me. I don't think she would stop the contact, any more than she did before. And I want her to make the decision to stop of her own free will, her own decision. Also, I had vowed to make Sunday a good day (thanks for reminding me, Kim), and it was to be our only full day together for another week. So I decided not to confront her, at least for now.
So why was it also a great day? Let me backtrack to Saturday night. She came home from work a little early, as she had said she might. We watched a video, and she ended up falling asleep in my arms. After the movie, I woke her up, intending nothing more than to go to bed in our room. But one thing led to another, and we ended up making love on the couch. Very nice.
We woke up on Sunday and cuddled a little before getting up. We made breakfast together and ate it on the swing on the balcony. Then we talked and cuddled out there for awhile. Again, very nice. Then she went to take a shower.
That's when I snooped and found the phone. It took me a few minutes to stop shaking and calm down. I decided to have a "gentle" R talk with her. After she finished dressing, she came over to where I was and sat down. I asked her if she thought we were going to make it through all this. She said yes, that she was starting to feel better about us and thought we would get through it. We discussed how volatile the situation is right now, and how we both blow up at each other too easily these days. I talked about how worried I was about her contacting the OG (I didn't tell her what I knew), how I didn't think our M could improve if she was contacting him, and how I think that being in contact with him will inevitably lead to sleeping with him again, and a continued full-blown A. I also told her that I hated the idea that ultimately I would be forced to make a decision I really didn't want to have to make. I said it in this way to imply that kicking her out of the house and telling the kids, family and friends would be the consequence of her sleeping with him again (I've said as much before), but I was trying to find a more gentle way of saying it. I asked her if she understood. She said, "yes, of course", and put her arms around me.
I also asked her if she had been in contact with or seen the OG. She denied it of course. I don't know why I asked. I knew that she would deny it. There was really no point, other than to observe her as she lied.
One thing she said, however, really caught my attention. She said that it wasn't so much that she wanted to see the OG or be with him, it was more that she really missed talking to him, like it would be if any other good friend had suddenly gone out of her life. Could that be a sign that she has, in fact, not seen him, but just wants to talk to him (not that even that is OK)? Or is my generally optimistic nature reading too much into that? Again, who knows.
Anyway, it got better. We talked about going away on a short trip together to Las Vegas, maybe at the end of this month, if we can arrange babysitting. Before we were married, we used to take such trips regularly. But not arranging such trips during our M is one of the things that she has blamed me for (rightly), that have resulted in her unhappiness. We also talked about other plans of ours. It felt good to be discussing the future, a future in which it is assumed we are together. The R talk was about as good as it could have been, given the subjects we discussed, and given what I knew.
We then went to a party down the block. While there, we held hands and she came over to sit on my lap after we had been separated for awhile. I told her how beautiful she was and she smiled and seemed really appreciative of the compliment. It's not flattery, she really is beautiful, but how rarely I've told her that over the last 8 years.
After the party, which finished mid-afternoon, we went home and sat down. She read a magazine and I dozed in her lap. When I woke up, I started rubbing her leg, and we ended up making love in the spare bedroom. She was very into it, and it was very, very nice. I probably shouldn't make sex into more than it is - for all I know she could have been thinking about the OG the whole time - but twice within 24 hours is very unusual for us (at least lately), and I felt very connected to her.
We then went with our boys into the pool, and she was again very affectionate, sitting on my lap on the steps. Later, we were laying out and drinking margaritas, and I noticed that she had her engagement ring on. She had taken both her engagement and wedding rings off some time ago, and had asked me not to pressure her into wearing them until she is "ready". So what does wearing one ring mean? That she is now half-committed? Who knows, and I didn't ask. I did ask, however, when she had put it on, and she answered "earlier today". I didn't want to make too big a deal of it, so I just said, "that's really nice, sweetheart", and left it at that.
Later on, we went out for a quick dinner and to see the movie Bruce Almighty. It was very funny, it felt good to laugh so much with her. I felt like a teenager, we held hands, and cuddled close together. Again, very nice.
To wrap up the day (no, we didn't have sex again, we were both pretty tired), she came to bed in a rather racy pajama top that I had given to her a few years ago. She had never worn it much, and generally wears something much more conservative. Maybe it didn't mean anything to her, but it seemed somehow very sweet to me, and I commented on how I liked it.
Overall, it would have been a day that I would put into my overall Top 5 List (have you ever seen the movie High Fidelity? Great flick), if I hadn't discovered the cellphone (other than that, Mrs. Lincoln, how was the play?).
So now, my dilemma. Should I confront her about the cellphone? When, or under what circumstances? Or, should I just continue to try to DB, and not tell her what I know? My inclination is to wait and see how much contact they have (she has made snooping very easy), and not confront her right away. Things between us are very fragile right now. I can't follow up a day like yesterday with a confrontation today. On the other hand, no matter how good yesterday was, it was only one day (the cellphone is probably for one year!). I don't think I can ignore it forever, or for even, say, one month.
So I am soliciting any and all opinions and advice, although I have no right to expect that anyone has taken the time to read this whole post, given its length. Actually, it was worth it for me to gather my thoughts together, even if no one responds.
If you can hang in there, just keep doing what you're doing. I'm sure the cellphone discovery was devastating, but you seem to be having the impact you want to have. If you want to snoop, go ahead, but be prepared for more nasty discoveries. If you don't think she's actually in physical contact with the OM, then you might consider scaling back on the snooping while you're DBing. Don't get me wrong - you have every right to snoop on her given what she's done. But, since your goal is to get her back, as long as she doesn't cross that particular boundary, give her the freedom and space she needs and try to be happy (or at least act as if you were) about the positive things that are going on.
Eventually, as a couple you will have to deal with all the lies, deception and other issues surrounding the OM. For now, though, that kind of R talk will probably push her further away. You will know when she's ready to talk. If there are things that are bothering you right now, then instead of pressuring her, you could consider: 1) getting yourself a solution oriented counselor to talk to individually, 2) calling one of the DB coaches, and/or 3) writing out or journaling your thoughts as they occur for later reference.
Make any sense???Well please let me know how things are going, I'll look forward to hearing what a wonderful full day you two spent together, you vowed to make it a good day. Go for it. ~~~K~~~