How to get past the sex thing

[kjb317]

I know this is so hard for you, confusing but if you do not want a D then give it a chance, you will know when you have had enough and only you, no one else can change how you feel. I am so sorry that I let some people know what was going on, because they told me I was crazy for putting up with the things I was putting up with, it's so easy for people to say you don't need this, file for D, leave him, etc. It is so different when you are going through it. My uncle did the same thing to my aunt that has happened to me, and at the time I said I would never ever put up with that S*** from my H. (then again I never thought I would have to.) But look at how much I put up with, unbelieveable. Love is a strange thing. I feel lucky that things are starting to get back to somewhat normal, but I am so afraid to let my guard down, &open my heart totally, & be me totally(I actually don't know who I am anymore at least I feel that way sometimes) I think its worth it for you to keep db'ing if you still want your m to work and you still love your W. Do everything you can do to make it work till you know you can absolutly do no more, then you can honestly say to yourself that you did everything possible & you won't have to wonder if you made a mistake or wrong discission. Take care. PS. I hate the whole cell phone thing, I wish I could flush my H. & I could kick myself I am the one who brought it for him. I still wonder about it when it rings or there is a message. I try not to ask I am getting good at it. And the bill comes in my name that is how I figured out what was going on, I am getting good at not opening the bill too, all the snooping even though I felt the need to know, made me feel so much worse.
Have a good night ~~K~~

[sage]

Sage - Can I quarrel with your advice? I guess I tend to think more like dcr, who a few posts earlier said, "For me, it was impossible to conceive of working on the marriage until the affairs were stopped", and "you should also take specific steps to assure yourself that the affair is not continuing during the healing process".

Of course you can disagree with it! It's just my 2 cents (may not even get that much on the open market) and it's given without expectation..it certainly doesn't have to be accepted!

In my perfect world, my h would have stopped his a the instant I "told" him to and would have returned to our m full force, ready to work. He didn't. Well, I don't KNOW if he continued contacting ow or not but I know for a fact that he was NOT ready to recommit to working on our m and told me so directly. It wasn't that he wanted to be with her but that he wasn't sure he wanted to be married at all.

In the early days, I was devastated by that -- the marriage builders site makes it very clear that healing won't be effective unless a is over. "After the Affair" depressed the hell out of me because it was all about how to rebuild your m based on the notion that you both wanted to ... Michele's book, OTOH, was the first one to give me hope...it let me know that DB'ing could have a positive impact for ME regardless of where H's head was at.

I don't want this to come across as weak or perverse or whatever but MY goal was keeping my H at home (no separation) because I just knew that FOR ME, it would be easier to DB if he were around. If he had moved out I think that my reaction would have been to just close the door on the R and move on. I wasn't ready to do that. I guess my point is is that a separation for us felt like it would be VERY problematic -- I think both of us get hung up in "does the other person love me" and it would be harder for us to bridge that gap from 2 separate locales. Would it have been impossible? Who knows? But I'm glad that I didn't have to find out (please note that I'm ABSOLUTELY not saying that separation is a BAD thing for all Ms. There's no question in my mind that separation could work extremely well for lots of folks). Anyway, I felt pretty strongly that forcing my hand with my H via ultimatum, etc, would be more likely to drive him away than keep him home.

Additionally, if she continues to contact the OG 12 times a day, how can she possibly ever do the work necessary to come back to the M? It would seem that my only hope would be that their R falls apart on its own, which it may not do.

Well, I agree with this obviously -- I'm not saying AT ALL that Ms should or could continue and heal with constant interaction with OP. I'm not even saying that contacting the OP is OK EVER after recommitting to a M. What my advice was suggesting was that you may not want to make that your primary focus. It's compelling to do so but as I stated before (I think) -- DB'ing takes alot of energy and focus -- focusing on M was where I thought my energy was best applied.

You know now, from the above, that I'm coming at this from a very particular slant and bias. YMMV.

Finally, I knew for myself and my h that control (MY tendancy to try to control him) and my mistrust had been an issue ALL ALONG in our M. I'm not at all proud of it but I had spent many years trying to control his behavior in an effort to make myself feel safe. I had (and actually continue to have) mistrust issues that predate (and apparently post-date!) h's a. Knowing those 2 things...it just felt like a HUGE 180 for me to try to let go of my need to control H's behavior. If you read my thread you'll find out that I struggle with this TO THIS DAY (well, up until yesterday! ) so I'm in no way suggesting that it's easy.

Oh, one more thing (so, my last "finally" was not accurate!) -- I've found for myself that when I'm busy looking for EVIDENCE of an ongoing a, I miss the EVIDENCE that h is coming around and recommitting to our m.

So...there you have it...more thoughts from Sage ...not trying to bring you to my way of looking at things, just putting my advice into context!

Sage

[TonyP]

Brian,
I just read through your thread very quickly, and may have missed some of the other poster's comments! Your W's A IS NOT about sex!!! There are other problems in your marriage you need to solve to regain the intimate part! The main reason for a woman to have an A is NEGLECT! Talk to W, LISTEN to W, ask her what is missing, try NOT to have sex with her! There are a lot of books here, but the best one I found so far, is "What women want men to know"

My W of 30 years, left me because OG has "all the right words and doesn't treat her like a piece of meat!"Not only is she having an A, SHE filed for D and wants to M OG!

You still have a good chance to save your M! W is home! Most people here have already lost their spouse! First, stop asking questions, stop being curious, show what a great , understanding, caring person you are! Don't call and check up on her excessively, and if you can't get a hold of her, just forget about, and don't question it! You are competing w/OG, so you are going to have to be the one she wants to be with! FORGET about OG, there is no OG, OK? She went to OG because she couldn't go to you, get it?

Take a deep breath, forget about OG, LOSE YOUR PRIDE AND EGO if you want to save your M, or you will chase W away! Yes, it hurts like hell, and will be the hardest thing you have ever done! This is going to take a long time, maybe a year!!! Face it! You will be going through the longest, hardest part of your life! Patience Patience Patience!! tick-------tock-----tick-----tock-----tick-----tock!

Your life has gone into slow motion, and an hour will seem like a day, a day like a week, a week like a year, and a year like eternity! Are you ready for this??? Do you want to save your M?? S-----L-----O-----W-----M-----O-----T-----I-----O-----N!!

As long as there is no talk of D, you have a chance! You have a family! FORGET THE OG, he does not exist, be better than him, be better than W, don't even think about having an A, don't think about kicking his ass, he is not the problem, YOU ARE!!!!!!GET IT????

I'm not saying you have to be nice to OG, he is scum! But don't hire a hit man, or run him off the road, and you don't even have to be nice to him, but don't lower yourself to "scum" level, when ever you see him just think to yourself "I'm a much better person than you are and I WILL be with my W and you won't"

And quit thinking about sex with your W, it is not important to her right now, you are not competing w/OG in the sex department, you are competing in the person department with him, and you have to be the better person! Make W comfortable at home, NO PRESSURE, help with chores, but don't over do it! FORGET ABOUT SEX, sure, hug her, hold her, kiss her, then go whack it! I know you hear this all the time, but BE HER FRIEND!!!, Be loving, do all the things you should have doing all along, WITH A SMILE! The sex will happen, but on her schedule right now! Women have to be comfortable to have sex, safe, secure, wanted, and loved!

Good luck Brian, you are in for a trying time, but you can pull it off!

[4btr]

Brian,

Tony and Sage are also giving you decent advice. Their perspectives may differ from mine (and yours) because all of our situations were different. You will have to make the decisions, right or wrong, about your relationship with your W. In my situation, the best choice was balance between the need to have her eliminate the OM (and yes, snooping was involved) and working on myself. Are there good reasons to snoop? Of course, but keep in mind that snooping may drive your W away. In my case it worked well, and for me, snooping after d-day allowed me to regain some of the lost trust. I'm nowhere near "recovered", but we are doing much better.

Ultimatums are best handled with care. Michele has much to say about them in her DR book. In my own case, the ultimatum was given after my W failed to keep her promises regarding contact with OM#3 several times over, and my own MC recommended I make a clear stand. The problem with ultimatums is that you have to be willing to follow through. For me, I had come to the point of knowing that I was doing all I could do for the marriage without my W's committment (several months after d-day). I decided that if she wasn't going to help, then the marriage wasn't worth saving. The ultimatum was my last resort, and it has worked so far (I'll reevaluate that statement in a year or so).

For me, a combination of recovery programs and ideas seems to have worked best, some from DR/DB and some from MB. In my own situation, my W and I decided within a few months of d-day to consolidate our separate lives. Before, we had separate bank accounts, credit cards, bills, etc. In addition, we both had numerous email accounts with "secret" passwords. Now we have joint accounts and share all login and password information with each other. That makes it much harder for an affair to flourish - not impossible, just more difficult. In your situation, the cell phone billing should eventually become an issue for discussion, but you may want to save that discussion for a time when you feel your W is committed to the marriage. Otherwise, it will be one more thing that will drive her away.

Ultimately, it comes down to the question of whether you want your W to stay or leave. After you answer that question (and I understand you might feel ambivalent at times), then figure out which things you need to do to make that happen.

dcr

[eskb]

You guys are great. I appreciate everything you say. Kim, I read your thread. What an amazing story. You must be much stronger than you give yourself credit for. You said, "I actually don't know who I am anymore at least I feel that way sometimes". I know that feeling, exactly.

Sage, I'm rethinking your advice. As far as I know, my W is not contacting/seeing the OG, so I'm not faced (at least, not yet) with the decision about what to do if she does. But I see your point about how staying together in the same house might have worked out best for bringing you and your H back together. Rather than weak, I see you as incredibly strong. I'm not sure I'm that strong. I sure hope I don't have to make that decision.

Update: Last night started out badly, as my W accused me of not mailing a magazine subscription bill back in December, that we have evidently been getting letters about. I have no memory of mailing it or not mailing it. Then I found out that my W had secretly changed her email password. Trying to control myself, I confronted her. Turns out she was just f***ing with me (does she know what this does to me?), and had changed it in a moment of irritation earlier in the day. She cheerfully gave the new one to me. She says she understands my need to be able to see her email, but still feels "violated". Yeah.

Since we were already sort of on the subject, I calmed down and fessed up to seeing her cellphone bill. I think she felt badly because she knows how obsessed she must look to anybody else. I was successful in not getting angry. In the case of the phone bill, I think that knowing helps me to understand better the nature of the relationship. In a crazy way, the sheer magnitude of the number of contacts (350+) during April alone (not including the times they met in person) makes me realize that it wasn't really mainly about the sex. In a twisted way, that makes me feel a little better. My W, however, thinks that I'm getting too much information, and that the knowledge will only get in the way of us really getting back together. I told her that I think I'm getting past the "got to have all the answers to all my questions" stage, and that I'll only ask her questions that I really want to know the answers to. I actually thanked her for not answering some of my initial questions on D-day related to the sex.

We then had a long discussion about what her girlfriend and I had talked about earlier in the day. The girlfriend had told me that she had seen something like this coming for about 3 years. My W told her many things that she never told me. She has been very upset about things that I should "just know" and that are "obvious". Evidently, I have been completely clueless, when it comes to my W. And, my W basically just holds it all inside, expecting me to clue in, and doesn't talk about what bothers her (although she regularly has been telling the friend).

I asked my W to start telling me as specifically as possible what I had done wrong and what I could change about myself. She didn't want to get into it. I also asked her whether thinks of me as weak or needy because I didn't kick her out right after finding out about the A. She didn't answer directly, which I took as a yes. She said if the situation was reversed, she would have kicked me out immediately.

Later, I gave her another back rub. Then I started kissing her neck and shoulders. She closed her eyes and seemed to enjoy it. Feeling in the moment, I tried to initiate sex. Bad move, Bri. She started crying and accused me of only giving her backrubs because I want sex. Tony, your post came a day late (not that I necessarily would have listened to you anyway). You are so right. I'm going to back off, for the foreseeable future.

From there it went from bad to worse. I tried to tell her how much I love her and that I know we can make it work. She responded that she doesn't know that, and thinks that she will always wonder "what if" about the OG if she doesn't pursue it now. We went to sleep, both of us feeling bad. I woke up around 4am (I can't seem to sleep more than 4 or 5 hours in a row now) and stupidly cuddled up to her. She yelled at me that she needed to get some sleep, I ending up crying (thought that stage was behind me) and she softened just enough to put her hand on my chest (probably just wanted to shut me up). Sometimes I just can't help doing what I know I shouldn't. I find myself craving physical contact with her.

One problem I have now is that I'm going to Japan on business on Saturday, until next Thursday. I'm just going to have to trust her, I guess. The trip is important, and I sure wish I didn't have all this on my mind.

Question: Does anybody have any suggestions about how I should look for a good MC (I've heard that there are many bad or ineffective ones)? At first I was hoping to avoid it, thinking we could get through without it. Plus, my W is semi-opposed to it (but she'll probably go, if I ask her). But I now think we need one.

Thanks to all who are helping me here. You'll never know just how much I appreciate it.

Brian

[eskb]

dcr - I read your post after finishing my previous post. As I said, I sure hope I don't have to make any decisions about an ultimatum. It's now been almost a week (the longest week of my life) and I think that she has stayed away from the OG. I'm going to reduce the snooping and concentrate on being the person I used to be, and making the changes I know that she would appreciate. I wish the road to a good M looked shorter.

Brian

[sage]

Brian -- Hey -- your post had a lot of good info in it! Just some thoughts....

Since we were already sort of on the subject, I calmed down and fessed up to seeing her cellphone bill. I think she felt badly because she knows how obsessed she must look to anybody else. I was successful in not getting angry.

Good for you for getting through this w/o anger...that leads to...

My W, however, thinks that I'm getting too much information, and that the knowledge will only get in the way of us really getting back together.

I think this is a common fear...you can help dispel this by what you're already doing...staying as calm and non-angry as possible during the discussions. One other very important thing -- try, try, try to NEVER throw any info back in her face. In other words, don't use the info in the future to "make a point".

She has been very upset about things that I should "just know" and that are "obvious". Evidently, I have been completely clueless, when it comes to my W. And, my W basically just holds it all inside, expecting me to clue in, and doesn't talk about what bothers her (although she regularly has been telling the friend).

OK so this is GOOD information. You know that your w has issues with your m. You know that her current mode of operation is to NOT tell you about it directly (well, in a way that you currently are able to "hear"). You want to be a sleuth?? Here's your chance -- your mission? SLOWLY figure out your wife's issues with you and the marriage but listening with a new set of ears.

I asked my W to start telling me as specifically as possible what I had done wrong and what I could change about myself. She didn't want to get into it. I also asked her whether thinks of me as weak or needy because I didn't kick her out right after finding out about the A. She didn't answer directly, which I took as a yes. She said if the situation was reversed, she would have kicked me out immediately.

I wanted the laundry list, too but didn't get one...it would have been easier to just hear ALL of it...but, well, it's not gonna be that easy. ALSO, don't ASSume that w thinks your weak just because she didn't answer you!!! She was probably too wrapped up in her own guilt and grief to get out an answer. I don't think there's anything weak about NOT knee-jerk reacting to an a...what could be LESS WEAK than staring utter betrayal in the face and DEALING with it??? ('course, I may be biased!)

Later, I gave her another back rub. Then I started kissing her neck and shoulders. She closed her eyes and seemed to enjoy it. Feeling in the moment, I tried to initiate sex. Bad move, Bri. She started crying and accused me of only giving her backrubs because I want sex. Tony, your post came a day late (not that I necessarily would have listened to you anyway). You are so right. I'm going to back off, for the foreseeable future.

OK -- that's a good data point.

From there it went from bad to worse. I tried to tell her how much I love her and that I know we can make it work. She responded that she doesn't know that, and thinks that she will always wonder "what if" about the OG if she doesn't pursue it now. We went to sleep, both of us feeling bad. I woke up around 4am (I can't seem to sleep more than 4 or 5 hours in a row now) and stupidly cuddled up to her. She yelled at me that she needed to get some sleep, I ending up crying (thought that stage was behind me) and she softened just enough to put her hand on my chest (probably just wanted to shut me up). Sometimes I just can't help doing what I know I shouldn't. I find myself craving physical contact with her.

OK -- two more data points -- as difficult as it is, stop telling her that you love her and stop trying to cuddle with her. Maybe one more point...time to back off on R. talks for now?

Not to offer platitudes but hang in there. You're learning a lot from your w. It's gonna be a long and bumpy road most likely but you've got good support and what seems like a very reasonable head start!

Sage

[scotty]

eskb

try to stay away from the relationship talk. It just leads us into a mess. Remember, you can't talk her into this. It's something she is going to need to go through and find herself.

Also, getting alot if information from W may or may not be a good thing imo. In my case, i was very nosey about my w...this leads to me assuming everything. Now when i have to go in my house (i'm seperated) i get what i need and leave. Its hard sometimes, but i let it go. Hang in there. your doing a good job!!!!

[eskb]

Thanks for the encouragement. When I get discouraged about the odd's of our ever being happy together again, it's nice to be able to think about all of the many cases on this board that have been in seemingly more precarious positions than me and my W. I marvel sometimes at some of the threads, where the situation seemed hopeless, but somehow there was a recovery.

I think I will back off the R talk, the cuddling, and the "I love you"s. I really want to do them, but she doesn't. They only seem to make her angry, sad, or withdrawn. I guess it's harder, but more real, to show her through actions. I know I should try to be the guy she married. I don't feel much like him right now. I just feel like a worn out, sad, pathetic loser who's obsessed with something he has little control over. I realize that this guy is no fun to be around.

And I will try to be more clued into the signs of what is working, and what is not.

Brian

[sage]

I know I should try to be the guy she married. I don't feel much like him right now. I just feel like a worn out, sad, pathetic loser who's obsessed with something he has little control over. I realize that this guy is no fun to be around.

Really? 'cause I see a dedicated, loving, concerned, intelligent, committed, articulate man who is using his strength to save his marriage.

And I will try to be more clued into the signs of what is working, and what is not.

Good!

Sage