Please help...need MLC advice

[tpaschal]

TPaschal,
Here is my feeling: you stood for your M because you needed to, emotionally. Looking back someday, you will be able to say "I did my very very best."

You will be able to hold your head high and tell your kids you did your best. You will be able to have closure regardless of what happens. You will have learned about yourself. And you will be able to move forward.

That is how I feel now. H will likely be with far-less-intriguing OW or alone. What will he say to D? D will see through lies.

Breton,

You are right, and I know it, sometimes it's just hard to remember amidst the pain and confusion of the moment.

And the kids DO see through the lies, but that's painful for me to see, too. I never in a million years thought they would have to go through this. Knowing the kind of man, husband, and father that he was, I never in a million years thought that they would have to go through the pain and grief of being emotionally abandoned, physically abandoned, lied to, ignored, yelled at, browbeaten, etc., etc., by their father.

It's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde, or invasion of the body snatchers or something.

So, surrender. It's all I can do for H right now. Surrender H and my M to God. Surrender myself to God.

I know that only in surrendering will I be able to find the strength and the peace to start living a new and different life, to start living like H won't come back, to start living for the kids, and for ME.

But it sure would be nice if God would send me a big message in the clouds telling me what to do!! LOL!

Thanks again to all who responded. Sorry for the pity party yesterday. But they are getting fewer and farther between! :-)

[momof2girls]

stop apologizing...pity parties happen...next time we will bring beverages!!

When H and I were S, I worried about finances all the time. H had lost his job of 10 years, and then lost one after 3 weeks...can you say MLC???

I thought it may have been a tactic to lessen child support (I don't think that now..) because H was going to have to pay about 400 to me a week and he already pays 200 for his sons a week.

My L asked that child support be based on the last 3 years W2 forms, basically an average of his salary. When we had our meeting with h and his L, his L was going to refute our request but my L said a judge would approve it.

You are a stay at home mom and your "job" doesn't come with pay, but yet helped the family because your H could work and you did not have daycare expenses.

I am a teacher so I do pretty well on my own, even with that H still would have been made to pay child support and half of daycare. I would not be entitled to spousal support.

Don't let the finances worry you, I know you are in the middle of it all but rest assure that in the long run you will be okay financially, it may help to look at your budget and see where you can save some money. It will make you feel empowered because you can control that.

Focus on things you have control over, it will make you feel stronger.

[Underdog]

Hi T--

I logged in to check in with Cagz and your thread popped out at me... sorry to read that things are tough now. (((tp)))

You said something that just compelled me to chime in:

But it sure would be nice if God would send me a big message in the clouds telling me what to do!! LOL!

LOL, well, you realize that God has always given you free will. So read ahead with that in mind...

He HAS given you a message - in the clouds, in prayer, in church, in your relationships with others. His message is for you to follow HIM. For you to resist the temptation of praying for a specific outcome... after all, your H has free will as well. The only thing God asks of us is to trust Him, follow Him and He will provide for our every need.

Oh, yes, I know this is tough, T. My first 6 months on this path, I pretty much told God the outcome I wanted. And every day I woke up and saw the proof that the outcome was out of my control, I was miserable. When I decided instead to pray for healing (for me, my XH, my children and all the others affected by our split) and for peace, THAT is when good started to happen. Ultimately, I don't pray for a specific outcome anymore. It's too limiting. What I do pray for is for God to continue to guide me when I struggle and to help me when I fall. He's never failed to provide me the strength to go on one more day when I ask for that.

You just can't begin to run until you can walk. You'll get there, sweetie. You just have to trust that you are at the exact place you need to be right now. The rest will take care of itself.

One other thing I continue to pray for: to be a good mother and to help my girls use this experience to benefit them in the long run. It's been a true blessing. My D14 is so far beyond where I was at her age. I'm truly proud of that girl. She did it all in spite of what has happened between her father and me.

Please know that this is one tough road. You're not insane for feeling so out of control. It's normal. But underneath that wary exterior is a strong woman who instinctively knows her own self worth and will ultimately gather a plan. Some days are toughter than others, and it would be great if you could jot down some things to do to pick yourself up when things are really sucky. Start small, make some small yet achievable goals and just start eating that elephant--one bite at a time. At some point, you're going to see significant progress. I promise!

So take good care of yourself today and I'll pray for you to begin that healing process. You so deserve it.

Hugs,

Betsey

[tpaschal]

stop apologizing...pity parties happen...next time we will bring beverages!!

Ooooh. Beverages!

I was an elem. teacher, but I have been staying home for 14 years. I can ask for spousal support since I have been out of the workforce for so long, but in Texas there's a max. of $2500 per month for a max. of 3 years. Nothing to sneeze at, but small compared to what our family as a whole lived on.

It does make me more than a little bitter that I was the one who worked and helped put him through medical school, I was the one who studied with him, went through the stress and the strain and the poverty of internship, residency, and starting up a new practice, I was the one who scrimped and saved and counted every penny (literally!) so we could get by, and then still did it even after he started earning good money so we could pay off all our debts---with the promise that by living so frugally we would be set for the future at a relatively young age.

And now that time finally comes, and for about 2-3 years I finally got to enjoy the feeling of being able to go to the grocery store without worrying if a utility bill would bounce, I got to buy a new pair of shoes for myself or school clothes for the kids without huge guilt, and then H jerks it all away? And not just that, but he's going to gift it on a silver platter to this 21 yr. old 'ho whose done nothing to help earn it??? Too bad, so sad, see ya? What the h*ll is up with that?????

Whew! <deep breath in> Sometimes ya just got to let all that out, ya know?

I know that asking those questions doesn't help anything, and I can't let it make me bitter long-term, but sometimes I need to just spew. I can't say it to him, so you get to hear it! LOL!

It may help to look at your budget and see where you can save some money. It will make you feel empowered because you can control that.

Focus on things you have control over, it will make you feel stronger.

This is true. H always listened to Dave Ramsey and we followed his Financial Peace plan for a long time. (No more for H---that's just one more thing H has tossed out of his life and he's gone seriously into debt.) I have been attending the Financial Peace University class at my church for the past couple of months. It does help me feel more in control by getting organized in that area.

[tpaschal]

LOL, well, you realize that God has always given you free will. So read ahead with that in mind...

He HAS given you a message - in the clouds, in prayer, in church, in your relationships with others. His message is for you to follow HIM. For you to resist the temptation of praying for a specific outcome... after all, your H has free will as well. The only thing God asks of us is to trust Him, follow Him and He will provide for our every need.

Oh, yes, I know this is tough, T. My first 6 months on this path, I pretty much told God the outcome I wanted. And every day I woke up and saw the proof that the outcome was out of my control, I was miserable. When I decided instead to pray for healing (for me, my XH, my children and all the others affected by our split) and for peace, THAT is when good started to happen. Ultimately, I don't pray for a specific outcome anymore. It's too limiting. What I do pray for is for God to continue to guide me when I struggle and to help me when I fall. He's never failed to provide me the strength to go on one more day when I ask for that.

Betsey,

Thank you for this.

I know this is part of the surrendering that I'm doing right now. Surrendering to God's will instead of trying to control the outcome to be what I want it to be. It's hard, but I'm getting there.

Right now I'm also angry. And I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. I think it's actually helping me to let go of the situation and turn it over to God. It's a righteous anger! LOL!

I posted on Cagzmom's thread about needing my anger and using it right now.

I think anger is okay. I NEED to get angry, and stay angry for a little while. When I'm angry, it makes me realize how disrespectful he's being and how I don't deserve that. No matter what I did wrong in our marriage, I DON'T DESERVE THIS.

When I let go of the anger right now I tend to slip back towards being hurt and depressed and desperate.

I don't want to show H I'm angry, I don't want to take it out on H or let it make me nasty toward him, but I need it because I think it helps propel me forward.

I'm glad that you and your D's are in a good place. I want that for me and my kids, too. Thanks.

[tpaschal]

So, I just found out that the trial date is set for Aug. 4. Great. Less than a week before D5's birthday. Happy Birthday to you from your Dad, sweetie! <gag>

That was also the week I planned to take the kids on vacation, so not sure what I'll do now.

I met individually with the new C on Tuesday, and he is great. Said he is totally pro-marriage and has done some DB training sessions, but also was honest that my H is very resistant and it may be YEARS before he comes to any self-awareness of what he's done, if ever. Said that he would do everything he could to help lead H to some self-awareness, but you know the cliche---you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. I told the C I am still standing, but want him to help me come up with some goals and strategies and techniques for getting on with MY life, and to help me deal with the denial, grief and acceptance. C said he would do that and would be honest with me and give me "reality checks" when needed. Hmmm...do you think he meant 2x4's? LOL!

This is a hard place to be in. I still want my M, I'm still standing for my M, but I'm trying to surrender it all to God. It's hard for me finding a balance between leaving a door open for "someday, maybe" and moving forward and leaving the outcome up to God.

That's where I hope the C and you guys who have "been there, done that" can give me pointers!

[Stillnlove]

Tpaschal,

I have gone back through your thread which began on February 14th. Much of what I address is old and much has been addressed--Bombadier and Momof2girls come to mind as those who offered excellent advice.
So at times if I answer something that is from the past, it is because it may be a common issue, and thus others may have similar questions.

In retrospect, I think there were a lot of signs of impending MLC that I did not notice. Or maybe it was the actual beginning of MLC?

Those signs are usually the beginning rather than impending.

I guess that the IDLYA bomb is already pretty far into the process?

Usually Bomb Drop is preceded by 12-18 months of progressive disillusionment.

told him I was trying to understand what he needed, but I was confused.

Many do not reach out in such explicit ways. You did well, but he was also confused; you could not have understood since he did not know what needed understanding.

After I confronted him ...the typical MLC alien behavior started. Affair went from EA to PA. Threw it in my face. Started ranting and raving, getting drunk and throwing things, punching holes in the wall... had his bimbo come and meet him at an out of town sporting event that he had taken the 12 year old to. 12 year old walked in on them together in the hotel room...

At least this is textbook. Some are quiet and avoid Monster which may seem more bearable, but the mental instability is less obvious.

He has continued with the alien behavior for a whole year now. Gets mad at something, rants and raves, quits seeing the kids for weeks at a time, says he'll never speak to me again except through the lawyers, then gets over it and starts coming around again

This is standard Cycling behaviour. MLC is like a temporary Manic Depression. I'm sorry you have one of the difficult ones. Twist this to find the positives.
The emotional turmoil may be greater (or not) than for LBSs whose MLCers spend little time in Monster. You have had to learn new coping skills to deal with this behaviour. But what are those other LBSs saying when they compare your MLCer to theirs?
They may be relieved. But read the threads. Seeing the negatives is more common than seeing the positives. Their spouses seem rational, therefore maybe they mean it. They seem more emotionally detached--it should be clear to you that your MLCer is not remotely detached. His irrational behaviour--his obvious separation from reality, is evidence of his mental Dis-Ease. It is a lot easier to stop blaming yourself in such conditions.

I'm so used to sharing EVERYTHING with him

I know. Our spouses are often the one person on Earth we trust with our Selves. That is one of the great traumas in this; the person in whom you would usually confide is the person causing the turmoil. You choose your emotions, but turmoil is not an emotion, it is the conditions.

He has started in "Why isn't the house on the market yet? Why haven't you gotten a job?" I guess I feel like he is the one who wants the divorce, not me, so why should I do all the work for it and make it easy for him?

Have you said that to him? There are some things you can say directly. Depending on the legal situation, that may not be one of them. Do what you are legally required, but nothing more. You want to avoid the impression of illegal dragging. But if you can address it, tell him: This is your divorce; I won't help you.

cell phone text messages that I look at when he leaves it laying around!) that they fight, that he lies to her, and that she has him on a leash.

You've got your information now. And as others have advised, stop the snooping. But let this information reassure you and step away from it. The fuse is ignited, sparks may fly and it may be exciting, but eventually it will explode. It doesn't need your help and consider any influence from you could interfere. Step away and let it happen.
It does not mean he will come home. It does not mean you will want him at that time. It also doesn't mean he will stay away and alone. There are no reconciliation guarantees. But his present relationship was doomed before it began. Please have Faith in that.

But according to him, he is oh-so-happy, is moving on with his life, and she will be a part of it.

And what do you say to that--literally, what is your response?
You know it's not true--due to your sources. Do you play along or do you tell him you know that it is not true--either matter-of-factly or with sarcasm?
There is a time for playing along and a time for confronting him with your knowledge of truth. The difficulty is knowing when to use which.

Validation
I realize that dear. You've never been happier.

Truthful Confrontation
We both know you aren't happy, so denying does no good.

Truthful Confrontation-Sarcasm
If that's happiness, I don't want it. But we both know it isn't

Truthful Sincerity
Really, I'm sorry. But you've been looking so miserable/sad/down. I just assumed you were unhappy.
Then smile sadly while lowering your eyes.
He will react back with a retort--except possibly to the sincerity. Shrug it off, and perhaps add an I'm sorry you feel that way. If it feels necessary.

she does not really want his kids around, but she's playing the part of the good little wifey.

Except that she has to leave when the kids are over, that doesn't fit with a good wifey, or a many who is letting her be a good wifey.

She's feeding him crap about me, telling him that I am a bitch (he told me that), that I am just trying to delay the divorce to hold onto him (well, yeah), and telling him that I'm just a bad mom.

Just as you need to avoid bad-mouthing her, a wise OW (oxymoron) would do the same. Let her bad mouth you. Your husband knows it is not true. It will eventually backfire. Rejoice that she is acting the part of B*tch in this Drama.

my son wanted to play soccer, his but when I ask his father to take him, she talks crap about me because it interfered with her plans for the evening.
Why can't he see that?

He can; the discord between them is indicative that he is aware on some level. But he's not strong enough to break through his Monster Within yet. This is tearing him apart; his extreme Anger is a sign of this. He is lashing out at the person closest to him and that is you. He is so integrated with you that perhaps it is the only way he feels he can destroy himself.

he wants me to settle everything with him instead of going to court. Promising to play nice if I do things his way, but hardball if I insist on going forward with the court case.
How do I respond to these bullying

With grace and dignity.

Stand Firm. But measure the risks. What do you need for your children. How much are you willing to lose in tangible assets? How much can you afford to sacrifice for your principles? There are no right or wrong answers.
Only discuss legal issues through your lawyers. When he tried to discuss legal issues, refuse and refer him to the lawyers. Yes, this may bring more Monster. Be firm, in this Monster is his method of manipulation.

What is the DB'ing thing to do?

What do you WANT?
Stand for your marriage by not fighting, but that doesn't mean giving in. If you don't want a divorce, contest. Show him that you are not going to take part in such immoral actions. The law may eventually declare you divorced, but you can Stand for what you Want and Believe. But keep in mind those questions I asked about your risk threshold.

Or do I continue to hold out, hoping that with enough time and prayer, he will change his mind?

It's not about changing his mind. Rethink what's happening and instead of labeling his behaviour as mistakes, label this Crisis as a necessary Journey.
180 degrees is the complete opposite direction. A complete revolution, 360 degrees, may be considered turning back to some, but the Journey through the degrees is transformational. When he completes the next half of his Midlife Revolution, the two of you will be facing forward. It is now, when he's only halfway around the circle that he is facing backwards.
And note: He may travel it different speeds through out. Many spin 180 degrees and face backwards in what seems an instant, whereas the second half of the circle may feel like the span of many lives.

H's partner was my GP doctor, and he would be happy to still see me for free (H's two partners are disgusted with his behavior) but it would be incredibly awkward to go into the office right now.

Would he make a house call or offer to see you at the office after hours?

Had to stop taking the kids to their counselor, too.

Can they have regular session with a school counselor?

he's been very, very surprised by my calmness (for the most part) and by my calm insistence that I do not want a divorce and believe that God can restore love to a marriage beyond any hope or expectation.
But he's still determined to press forward with a divorce. So now what? It's hard to know what the right path is.

Let's see, you want your marriage rebuilt and believe Gad can restore. Isn't that the path then? What you seem to be asking is what should you do. You are asking for active suggestions.

though I keep turning it over to God, I keep trying to take it back from Him

That is normal; keep practicing. You no longer need to snoop because you know about the discord. Now have faith that the OW will continue to show jealousy and progressively shorten and tighten the leash.

It hurts a lot on days like today, Valentine's Day, to know that even though I am still his wife, he is spending a special evening with a 21 year old bimbo.

He may have spent the evening with her, but it was not special. Believe that.

Respond to his anger, bullying, and maltreatment with consideration and kindness. This will really screw him up. It will defuse his wrath, confuse him, and make him think

This doesn't work with all of them, but it worked for me. Rather than diffusing the Anger, it may teach him to take it to someone else. He may stop spewing at you and find someone who will react back.
But consideration and kindness are how to respond even if it doesn't work and he continues to spew at you. Kindness includes Tough Love and it keeps your heart pure.

Why? Awkward for who? Go.

Yup

I would feel terribly uncomfortable with him here, for a lot of reasons.
Feedback, please.

Hmm... I guess I am wondering why you would feel so uncomfortable?
It is probably best for the kids to stay in their own home. I would have to say it would probably be good for him to be there, too!
Buy yourself some flowers and put them on your nightstand. Put some sexy new undies in the drawer. Bet he'll look!
You are getting great advice from Bomb and others.
You can do this!!!

Flowers and sexy undies! I love it!
This is a common question. Should you let him stay over with the kids in your absence. Should you let him come over and spend time with the kids at the house. He has house privileges on Thursdays.
There is no right answer. A person needs to act within her comfort range. Consider the possible advantages and disadvantages.

• It's not the house, it's home.
• Good Memories
• Since you want him Home, let him feel at Home in the house.

You yourself have listed many excellent disadvantages.

• He will nitpick your housekeeping et al.
• He may compare imperfect housekeeping to an OW who doesn't have kids to make messes.
• Thus you would suffer more in comparison.
  This is your fear. You are comparing yourself to something broken and so desperate she had to latch onto a married Sugar Daddy and exert control. She had to find someone sick and broken because a mentally stable man would look upon her with disgust.
• He will photograph the mess for evidence and make up stories about you neglecting the kids.
  This is hilarious.
  If he has access to photograph the closet, he has access to mess it up. The messy closet implicates him as much as you, except that it makes him look worse because it would be recognized as deliberate sabotage. It creates a he said/she said argument. Let him try!
• He will have access to personal paper and electronic files.
  An excellent point. Hide or remove them and set computer passwords. But weigh the risk and bother.
• He can legally remove possessions from the house.
  Another good point. Weigh the risk.
  Many MLCers can legally remove household items. I believe what Charlene Steinkamp said was that she had Faith those things would come back because Bob would come home and that if he took those items, he would be reminded of her--positive memories.

Well, first you have to realize that my H is actively pushing for a divorce right now. He wants it done, he wants it over with, he's been trying to bully me into getting it done and when that didn't work he's recently tried to be Mr. Nice Guy and convince me that if I will just go along with his plan and hurry it along he'll make me a nice offer. He WANTS A DIVORCE

This is another common LBS retort.
We get that! We sung with that choir!
Some actively push for divorce and Drop-In at the house constantly--when the LBS is there or not. For some it can be a comfort zone--perhaps more so if the LBS is absent from the house. If the LBS is present and he hangs out, it may be an enabling comfort zone instead. The physical home can be a great pull for some.
I am not saying it was a good idea that you let him stay. There were some tense results, but it doesn't seem as though it was a disaster either. It's a risk. The house is your personal space. Regardless, it comes down to your comfort level and risk threshold. I've done both, welcomed with open doors and locked the doors.

I'm tired of attacks like that and tired of defending myself.

Then stop doing it.

I don't know if letting him stay in the house shows good will, or just lets him feel in control while making me feel uncomfortable about letting him step over my boundary.

I think it is completely about his control. Your concern that he is seeking to bring you discomfort is not part of his motivation. Your discomfort is a byproduct. He isn't concerned with you enough to do that, not because you are unimportant but because this crisis makes it so he has only enough reserves to be concerned with his own Self.
But also consider the OW factor. You don't know what's going on there. Maybe she can't stay somewhere else for two days. Or some other OW reason.

Would love some advice from you on whether or not to let him stay at the house this weekend!
Would it be good DB'ing to allow him to stay here? Or would it be me being a doormat?
I'm confused!

It is interesting that you let him stay. I would actually have advised you to say no. Not because I felt it was a bad idea and agreed with your arguments, but rather because it was something that seemed to make you so uncomfortable. I would have let him stay, but you are not me and we all must do what is best for ourselves.
But I'm glad you faced this fear.
You keep asking about good DB'ing. That is subjective. Good DB'ing for you might be an opposite action than it is for someone else. It involved considering what you want and what you are strong enough to handle. Each MLCer is different also, and so you and I may be similar but act differently because our MLCers need different responses.
Good DB'ing is focusing on yourself, realizing that you will be fine. It is not about second-guessing every action in the context of good or bad DB'ing. That shows you are too wrapped up in the situation and outcomes. You are too worried about his Anger and that he will reach a point of no return because of your actions--and then you will blame yourself.
I think your doing awesome! You have a vicious Monster MLCer and you are handling your Self well around him. I'm impressed. Trust yourself.

When I was able to live by the words, "You know the truth, it doesn't matter what others think," my life got tons easier.

I love this. There are many injustices in this world. But have Faith that the two that matter most know the Truth. You and God. I know that to some it may not be comforting because earthbound humans with power can affect our lives here. A person can sit in jail for the remainder of his life while he and God know he is innocent. And yet it has always remained a comfort to me. Listen to others; they may have valid criticisms and helpful suggestions. But recognize the truth of who and what you are, even if no one else will. Believe in yourself.

But if he and OW get married.....you need to move on with your life.

Moving on is not mutually exclusive from Standing. Moving on is about finding yourself, growing and GAL.

by the time he gets out of it he will realize the destruction he has caused and it will be all to late.

Why is that? It can be too late, but it does not need to be. Remarriage to an OW is temporary; and it is irrelevant if an LBS considers it so.

WHEN is H going to WAKE UP???
And WHY do I KEEP asking that???????

Because this is a long and tiresome Journey--and you are not far in when you consider the MLC range.

how can I be a safe port if I've gone NC?

No Contact is a part of Paving The Way. It provides him with Space. He can distance himself from the emotional trauma, shame and guilt he feels when he communicates with you
His shame and guilt have their place, but they may also be barriers to his healing.
Do you want a Leaner who cannot function without you holding him up? Or do you want a man strong enough that he can exist without you, but who chooses to be with you anyway?
No Contact gives you space to detach from his constant drama. This can allow you to dedicate your time to your Self. You are not a Safe Port if you are not strong. No Contact helps you find your Strength.

but how do I realistically go dark when we have 3 kids? And is it the right thing to do?

Yes, it is seems the right thing for you. It will help you separate from the Monster.
Going Dark is a step before No Contact and thus more realistic when children are involved. It's an Assistant to Detachment. Speak to him only regarding issues with the kids; no chit chat. Be cordial but reserved--not overly friendly.
Treat the legal process as business--and only business. That means do what you must to protect yourself and the children to survive. Getting him to pay up--in large but fair quantities is not mean. It is business, not personal.
He is trying to use your Love and Stand against you by promising to be nice if meet his demands. But I f you roll over onto the doormat as he is requesting, he'll go for your jugular.

A friend of mine...said I or D14 or S9 should have called or texted him to ask him when he planned to see the kids on Easter, to at least give him the opportunity. She said that...most men won't take the initiative to do that---they depend on their wives or ex-wives to plan the kids' schedules and then just let them know. But should I for other things?
It's true that would be the "friendly" thing to do, but wouldn't I just be enabling his current behavior? ... do I have to enable him to have his cake and eat it, too?

You are over thinking this way too much. Suggest to the kids that they text him, but tell them it is their choice. Suggest they call him regularly, but help them feel safe choosing to not call. Let the kids inform him of their schedules. But in all of these you are reminding and suggesting without encouraging or discouraging.

H sent me a text last week asking if I had contacted the realtor yet. I truly cannot remember if I said in the meeting that I would do that. Should I? Or should I leave that ball in his court?

This depends on the whether you made a legal agreement to do this. Find out. If you did not agree that this would be your legal responsibility, let him do it.

Praying for the OW

This is always a good things to do. Do it for the selfish reason: to maintain the purity of your own heart. But also do it because she needs it. What sort of person does what she is doing? If she continues on this pathway, it will be bad for her and it may destroy many more marriages. She is not bad, but her behaviour is inappropriate. She is broken.

I mentioned depression and medication one more time before he moved out, and he got very nasty and told me that going on an antidepressant often made people more decisive and able to act on their feelings, and did I really want him to decide to leave me when he was still feeling confused and conflicted?

Interesting, he didn't want to decide to leave you? ADs can help regulate moods. I'm not an advocate, but that is my bias and thus I recognize that they are appropriate for some people. But do they stop the crisis? Well, I hope not, because MLC is a journey to resolve issues. Stopping the crisis leaves issues unresolved. But I doubt that ADs stop the crisis and change an MLCers mind. My extremely fuzzy guess is that they help regulate moods and thus increase functionality. Maybe this diffuses the Monster-Anger, but I do not know. This is outside of my experiential range and I would love to hear from those with experience.

As for the kids counseling, several times he's said they don't need it, they'll be fine, KIDS ARE RESILIENT

Um, yeah. And who does he site as proof? The OW whose Dad left when she was 11, who is a college drop-out working part time, who is having an affair with her (former?) boss, a man almost twice her age who has a wife and three children. Does he truly think she who is now deliberately attempting to destroy a family (his family) and make his life utterly miserable is evidence of resilience? Ha!

The kids' counselor did call him once back in March 07 to ask if he would come in to meet with her and D14, or come in by himself so that C could get an idea of what was going on from his point of view to be able to help D14. He refused.
Over the past 4-6 months I've asked him a few times to go to counseling with the kids, or for he and I to go together to learn how to co-parent the kids through all of this. He kept refusing.

And what do you think this refusal means? Sounds to me like he's afraid of having his own fears and indiscretions uncovered and thus having to face them.
It's common to refuse to go with the LBS. Sadly it is also not uncommon to refuse to go to help a child, but it is that much more indicative of his fears. This guy is scared of his own Self. He is scared of being discovered and discovering.

I do think his main intent was to manipulate me, to soften me up to doing things his way.

Agreed.

him telling me that if I acted adversarily it made him not want to see the kids

Excuse me! What a truck load of Bull Excrement! He would choose to take it out on his children when he disapproves of your behaviour? That's mature. Seriously: is he presently competent to practice medicine?

H's Lawyer said to me, "Oh, I agree. I've been telling him that from the beginning."

Lawyers are professionals who are chosen by the client, they may not agree with or approve of the client's actions.

My L asked who would pay for it, and H said he would, at the same time as H's L said, "Oh, H will. I'll make sure of that."

Priceless.

And as we left the building at the end of the day we were going through a very narrow passageway where the security check station was. My L was leading, then me, then H's L, then H. H was far enough behind that he couldn't hear, and H's L said to me, "Good luck to you. I hope it all works out." I said, "Thanks."

Cool.

Why did he agree to go?

Because he was cornered and caught. His lawyer got to meet the real you and she's been advising him to do counseling as have you. He likely didn't want that to be known.

Will H see it as pursuing if I express to the C that I don't want a divorce?

Perhaps, but more likely he will see it as Denial or an attempt to control him--unless you try to steer the co-parenting counseling toward marital counseling. Tell the counselor about your Stand in private or in your husband's presence. It sounds as though your husband knows you don't want a divorce and believe in reconciliation, so it's not a shocker.

A real 180 for me would be to tell H that I'm ready for the D to be finished. But that would be a lie!

If you need to do something different, it doesn't mean every opposite action is suddenly the new appropriate action. And why do a 180, you are doing fine.

I think I'm confused about DB'ing? I mean, my ultimate goal, obviously, is to save my marriage. I know that to do that I need to detach and be the best ME possible. But while GAL, making changes for myself, etc., I am trying to do those things in ways that will yield the best results possible for my M.

Just make sure your actions are not motivated to manipulate him. Doing things that foster your Growth has a positive benefit of fostering your other goals. But that is a side benefit that occurs organically. Trust in it.

Okay, I know I'm focusing too much on H's motivation and trying to get into his head, and wondering what his reaction will be. But the whole reason I'm DB'ing is to save my M. So shouldn't I be concerned with whether or not something will push him further away?
I am so confused.

Trust. Do what is best for you. Would what is best for you include things that are against your goals? No!
You are so afraid of his Anger and upsetting him in each moment that you have lost sight of the distance. Your actions may or may not diffuse his Anger and facilitate a change in his behaviour in the present. You are building a foundation for later. He MUST continue through this journey--and that means he is incapable of rebuilding or even consciously wanting to rebuild.

As far as DBing...I just talked to H when I had to, and only about the kids. I did not start arguments and when he did I told him I didn't deserve to be treated this way and when he could talk to me calmly he could call me back.
I never called him and when he called sometimes I would let it ring. I stayed dark as much as possible. When I did have to see him I always looked my best and kept a smile on my face.
As far as counseling goes...go for the kids. there is nothing wrong with you saying you don't want a D...say it matter of factly.

Excellent advice.

I think my H is sooooo "hooked in" to the 22 yr. old OW that even though I know they fight and argue and it isn't all the happy paradise he thought it would be, it will be VERY difficult for him to ever break it off with her, even if he wanted to.

Yes, it will be difficult. So what! Tough! There is nothing you can do about that. Accept it and Let it Go.
MLCers don't like to make decisions and OWs like to lead with leashes. But MLC is a Journey and as the MLCer goes through it, he will regain the desire to make his won decisions. OWs react to this by attempting to exert greater control. This OW control issue is a trait that keeps the relationship going in the beginning and will be its downfall later.

OW will MAKE HIM HAPPY for the rest of his life!

Shrug and tell him that you are saddened that he has given up the ability to make himself happy and thus he now mistakenly believes that others can have such power over him.

he has talked trash about me to OW, and to a few other friends and coworkers to the point where he would feel foolish having to take it all back. He is very stubborn, and I think he would probably prefer to stick with OW than to have to admit that he made a HUGE mistake.

BLAH BLAH. Sorry, but this is LBS blather. Most LBSs say this. They believe their MLCer is the special case even though the other LBSs say the same thing. Come on! They are all stubborn. They also all changed and are still changing--unless the Monster is the man you chose to marry.

OW is very young and immature in a lot of ways, but she is also a VERY good manipulator. From what I can see, she seems to have most of the control in the relationship. Plus, she's got a lot of crap going on in her own life that would make him feel guilty for leaving her

Good. This is the best sort of OW to have. MLCers hate control and simultaneously crave it. This is how it has to happen. Rejoice that she is being this way.
So let her guilt him. Let him build resentment for her; she is her won worst enemy.

I guess my problem right now is---I am still trying to decide what to do and how to handle things based on what I think H's reaction will be.

You've got that right. He is in Replay and his reactions will be Replay reactions, expect and accept that.

But I want be the honey that draws the bee

You are being that. But in MLC it takes a very long time for the message to travel first to the Bee's brain and then back to his muscles for action.

Don't try to win your H back

Because if this is how you are motivated, you are showing you feel you are lower than your MLCer and he is a prize.
Congratulations, you've won a 40 year old teenager.
I guess he's the booby prize.

Wish I could get inside his head.

No you don't. Maybe viewing through a glass partition, but you don't want to be inside.

He seems very, very angry right now.
Angry at me? At OW? More likely at himself?

Himself.

The kids' counselor said that the C would likely start off by asking what our expectations were, what we hoped to get out of the counseling.

Understand that expectations are not goals. Be honest, but the purpose of these sessions is co-parenting, not marriage counseling.

so this issue and the counseling were some things he agreed on, not that he was forced into by the court.

He may not have been forced legally, but he felt forced.

At this point anything you do or don't do is not going to change the course of whatever is going to happen. Who really cares if he thinks you are being b*tchy!! In the long run it really doesn't matter.

It doesn't. Women who are assertive are B*tches and men are respected. His brain is screwed up right now anyway. He would call a nun (Mother T) B*tchy. Better a B*tch showing Tough Love than an enabling doormat.

Does your H see you as someone who follows through or just threatens?? You may want to do a 180 and stick to exactly what you say.

Be consistent. That doesn't mean you cannot change your mind. But when you do, you will need a well thought out reason. Consistency is also flexible. Know when to be firm and when to be soft. And that is often a learned or intuitive skill; I don't think I've figured out how to tell someone else to detect the right time for such things.

I am in such turmoil right now. I have tried to detach over the past year, but I haven't, really. I was holding on to hope so hard that I am stuck. Don't know what to do. Don't know where to turn.

The irony is that not detaching is not how to get a spouse to come home. Detaching, Letting Go, Dark, No Contact...tactics that seem to separate you emotionally and make you appear cold and uncaring are acts of necessity for your won mental health AND acts of Love. Fear enables. Fear is attached. Fear clings.

[MIL] told me it was time to let him go. To move on with my life. To stop sitting and waiting and hoping.

Your MIL is right, you should Let Go, there is no waiting and you should Move On. What I think she is unaware of is that those things are not what happens to stop Standing. They are part of Standing. As for Hope, it is within you, let her know that Hope is your choice, regardless of her opinion.

I've also been way to focused on how H would react to everything.

Yes, you have. But you recognize the behaviour, now you can do something to change it. What can you do.
Focus on your Self and accept that MLC lasts a lot longer than a year. How will this help? If you can accept that MLC lasts longer, you can allow yourself to stop looking for signs of change or signs of Hope. Stop looking for signs--and Hope doesn't need a sign.
I'm sorry. But to me he seems classic MLC. Given that, this is not going to be over anytime soon. You will likely be legally divorced. You need to determine whether that is a barrier for you. MLCers regret there actions, but not for years.

I think (and MIL says she KNOWS) that H filed for D under pressure from OW. (MIL doesn't know anything from H, as they have little to no contact---she knows from her own experience with FIL's serial affairs, where his OW's ALWAYS tried to control and manipulate him into filing D.)

Oh, from how you have described the OW, I do not doubt this divorce is from her pressuring. There is nothing you can do about that other than allow yourself to be reassured in her behaviour. Unless you would rather he were having an affair with someone who were nice and would make a great substitute mother. Nice people sin and make mistakes; they have affairs too. But MLC OWs are a different sort; they are an affair down and this OW is the perfect type.

t help telling him how I feel and what I think about what he's doing.

I know. Our spouses are often the one person on Earth we trust with our Selves. That is one of the great traumas in this; the person in whom you would usually confide is the person causing the turmoil. You choose your emotions, but turmoil is not an emotion, it is the conditions.

He has started in "Why isn't the house on the market yet? Why haven't you gotten a job?" I guess I feel like he is the one who wants the divorce, not me, so why should I do all the work for it and make it easy for him?

Have you said that to him? There are some things you can say directly. Depending on the legal situation, that may not be one of them. Do what you are legally required, but nothing more. You want to avoid the impression of illegal dragging. But if you can address it, tell him: This is your divorce; I won't help you.

cell phone text messages that I look at when he leaves it laying around!) that they fight, that he lies to her, and that she has him on a leash.

You've got your information now. And as others have advised, stop the snooping. But let this information reassure you and step away from it. The fuse is ignited, sparks may fly and it may be exciting, but eventually it will explode. It doesn't need your help and consider any influence from you could interfere. Step away and let it happen.
It does not mean he will come home. It does not mean you will want him at that time. It also doesn't mean he will stay away and alone. There are no reconciliation guarantees. But his present relationship was doomed before it began. Please have Faith in that.

I'm feeling like, why the heck did I do this? Why did I DB? Why did I stand for my M? As this has dragged on, H blames me more and more. He no longer seems to have any guilt for what he's doing, like he did in the beginning. If I had gone through with a divorce quickly, I would have had a lot more to show for it financially to make a better start for me and my kids.
Still don't want a D. I'm still heartbroken.

You stood for your M because you wanted to, don't second guess yourself. If your D is going to happen then it is time you start to change you. It is time to really begin to lead your life as if H is not coming back.

I want to comment on your question about why did you stand for your marriage when it didn't work out in the end.
You can't see the other side, but in my opinion you would feel even worse if you didn't stand or DB but instead went straight to divorce. You would always wonder "what if?"
You did what you could and that will serve you well in the end. I understand that money is an issue, but I really think that trying to keep your family intact trumped the money issue. In other words, it was worth the money to know that you did everything you could to save the marriage.

Mom and CMNM answered you so beautifully. Standing has many advantages even if a marriage is not restored. You have been Standing for your beliefs; for what you felt was right and best. The actions necessary for Standing are relationship teachers. You have been going through the process of healing and repair so that you do not repeat the relationship mistakes you may have made previously. Marriage used to be about money. It is not that way for most today. Most in our society marry for Love--or what they think is Love.
As this drags on he blames you more...that is because it is a Midlife Crisis. It's been about 16 months for you. I know that sounds and feels like a lot. But in MLC it is not even close to the end.
Accept the Process of MLC and Let it Go. It doesn't matter how perfect you were before and how perfect you have been as a Stander. You may have smiled at just the right moments, been firm when you should, stayed strong etc. It matters that you have grown and been strong, but those things don't stop the Crisis. He MUST go all the way through his MLC. Standing builds a foundation for later. You can choose to use that foundation for your marriage when he wants to you back in three or more years, or you can continue to use it for your own stability and growth and choose to tell him No.

In the beginning it seemed he had guilt and now it seems he does not?
What made it seem that way?
Did he seem confused, change his mind, cycle emotionally?
Those are all common in the beginning.
But he seems very Angry toward you. I've seen many that are Angry, he isn't any Angrier than the Angry ones, but not all are Angry. He is ANGRY. That could be indicative of his guilt. But he doesn't want to feel guilty. To consciously admit to guilt would be to blame himself, and he is not ready to do that yet. If he could do that, he would be closer to facing his Fears, closer to Depression.

Divorce is not the end unless you say it is. I'm sorry, but it is likely to happen. So let's accept that. What then? What should you do?
What do you need to do for yourself, to make yourself whole, to find Strength and Peace and maintain them?
What specific actions will help you find these?
What do you need to do for your children?
Be Strong and at Peace, but what actions do you need to do for and with your children to help them become Strong, Independent-Minded Adults?
What do you need to do now to both protect them and to give them the means to take care of themselves?
Your focus is now on your Self and your children.

Jim Conway chat--saying he liked the term surrender instead of detach.

It is True, Jim preferred Surrender to Detach.
I see it differently now. Surrendering is a higher form of Detachment. There are 3 Releasers and in order from highest to lowest they are Detach, Letting Go and Surrender.
You have to Detach before you can Surrender. Detaching alone has not helped you because it is not enough. Acceptance becomes possible through the Releasers.

[tpaschal]

Wow. This is a lot to take in. Thank you so much for taking so much time to read and think through everything and respond so thoroughly. You have some great points for me to think about. I will print this out to read and digest slowly. I hope I'll have a chance later today to respond to some of what you said.

Thanks again.

[kikifree]

Excellent post/advice. Excellent!!!

[tpaschal]

Logged on to post this and then saw the post above, so will go ahead and post this before trying to respond to the above.

Trying to figure out this NC thing, and boundaries.

H doesn't want me to be his wife anymore, but he expects me to still fulfill many "wifely" duties. (No, not sex, he's got the 21 yr. old bouncing baby bimbo for that!!)

There are 2 main issues. The kids, and finances/bills/house sale.

This post is about the kids.

H does take S9 and D5 to school on T,W,Th mornings. It's less than 5 minutes with them each time, but H uses this to justify to himself and to the C and everyone else that he is a great dad and sees his kids EVERY DAY! Urgh!

We just had Temporary Orders set on March 12, and it was made very clear that he is supposed to be responsible for the kids on Thursdays from the time school gets out until 7pm, or until whatever activity they are involved in for the evening is done. He has yet to do this. He is also supposed to have them every other weekend from 6pm Friday til 6pm Sunday. He isn't great about this, either. He wants me to be flexible, but he refuses to be flexible for me.

How do I handle this?

Meredith gave me some great advice once on how to handle some things---to pretend he is shipwrecked by choice on a deserted island. Send him a messenger bird to inform him about things going on with the kids, tell him that we would appreciate any help he could give with carpools and attending practices and games and events, and then leave it alone. If he helps out, great. If not, well, I would have to deal with it all on my own somehow if her really WERE stranded on a deserted island, or even if he had died in a car wreck 12 months ago, now wouldn't I?

I have been trying to do things this way as much as possible. S9 does call to ask him sometimes about taking him to soccer practice, but so far he's refused every time except once. (When OW then trash talked me about not bothering to care for my kids, so maybe THEY should take custody.)

But I'm trying to figure out some of the small details. They may not seem like much, but I do think his relationship with his kids needs to be that, HIS, and so far I'm feel like I'm still doing too much of the encouraging of him spending time with them by still handling all the wifely details.

I'm not saying I'm not Standing anymore, but since he is determined to get a D, and it most likely will happen by end of summer, I think it's time for him to face reality as far as what it means to be a divorced dad.

On Thursdays, he sometimes picks S9 and D5 up from their school, and they must have a "car rider" note if they are not to ride the bus. So far I've been sending the car rider note for H, but have forgotten a couple of times and had to tell him he could pick the kids up here at the house when they get off the bus instead. (Doesn't really matter as he brings them straight here even when he picks them up in car.)

Since H is the one who picks them up and takes them to school on Thurs. mornings, I'm thinking of telling him he needs to start sending a note with them if he plans to pick them up by car that day, otherwise, he needs to be waiting in the driveway for them at school bus time. But I'm also thinking of telling him that he can no longer come hang out with them at the house---he wants the D, so he needs to start following the court ordered visitation and actually have them for the whole time on Thurs. The house is about to go on the market, and when it sells and the kids and I move, I cannot imagine allowing him to have such freedom in my new home. I will really need to separate him from my life in order to gain some perspective. Again, not saying I won't still be standing, but he is a stranger to me now, and I wouldn't allow a stranger that much access to my house. So, maybe that kind of separation needs to start now.

But then I waffle. Is this really what's best for the kids, since he is such a putz right now? And treats them badly? I don't mean he beats them, but he is distracted and moody and short tempered with them, so do I really want them to be with him? But then I waffle the other way. I DO want an evening to myself now and then, and when I go back to work full time, I will NEED that. I do feel taken advantage of.

Same thing happens on weekends that he is supposed to have them. He has no idea what's going on in their lives, even when he has the tools to inform him. When I registered S9 for soccer, I gave them H's email address so that he would get all of the updates on games and practice schedules, etc. H missed S9's game on the 6th, and when S9 called to tell him about it and ask why he hadn't been there, H blamed it on Mommy for not telling him about it. <urgh>

This weekend was his, and when he was here on Thursday, he said he needed to ask a favor, that he had been invited to a party on Sat. evening and really wanted to go.... I told him I needed to check with him about Sat. anyway, as it was the evening of the kids' swim team banquet. Told him I had bought the tickets a long time back, before I realized it would be his wkend, but he was welcome to have my ticket to take the kids if he wanted, but if not, I would really like to take them. Said S9 and D5 didn't need to stay until midnight, as D14 would want to do, and could he pick them up at 10pm. Said that way he would get to go to his party for at least a while, kids would get to do something they were looking forward to, and D14 was planning to go home with a friend afterwards, if that was okay with him, since I had plans for 10pm after little ones left.

He refused to pick them up, and was trying to figure out places for them to spend the night. I suggested that he call his parents, as they would love to have the kids, but since he is angry at them, he flatly refused. He ended up refusing to pick them up and dumped it all on me to deal with. I ended up asking my in-laws to take them, and of course they agreed. (I had actually discussed it with them before H even brought it up, since I KNEW he would allow them to go to the banquet but would refuse to pick them up later, since he has no real desire to spend time with them, anyway.)

What if there had been no swim team banquet and I was going out of town to visit my sister's new baby? Who would he have dumped my kids on Sat. night so he could go to his damned party? That worries me, but I can't live the next 10 years of my life allowing him to affect my weekend plans, can I? I HATE THIS!

He called and left a msg. early Sunday afternoon saying he knew (S9 called him Sunday morn. on the used but new to S9 cell phone that H just gave him) that the kids had spent the night at his parents house, that he had wanted to do something with them but refused to go pick them up from there, and that if I wanted to go pick them up and then have the kids call him he would do something with them. If not, he would do something with them on Thurs. or next weekend. Wow. How generous and magnanimous. <sigh>

I ignored the voice msg. and did not call him back.

So, to recap the actual questions from the novella length post. Do I put responsibility on H (in a politely worded request, of course) for his R with the kids by being in charge of his own Thursday afternoon pick-up routine? Do I continue to allow him to hang out at the house on Thurs. afternoons, or tell him that he needs to start making other plans for something to do with them? And for weekends, how can I not be a doormat?

Thanks for all the words of wisdom I have received.