Please help...need MLC advice

[tpaschal]

Snodderly,

Thanks for checking in on my thread. I appreciate your insights and suggestions.

The kids and I were in counseling from Jan. 07, shortly after the bomb drop, until October 07, when H quit paying. This is the first time he's ever agreed to go, so I guess I was hoping he was peeking out of the tunnel just a bit.

I guess I had hoped that after a year of him being gone, some of the anger would be dissipating by now. But it seems to come and go, and I can never predict it.

I am dim, only contacting him when necessary about kids stuff or bills needing to be paid, but when I do see him at soccer games or when he comes to pick up the kids (he also comes on Thursdays and hangs out around the house for a couple of hours) I try my darndest to act "as if." But one minute we'll be having a normal conversation about something and the next minute he'll clam up, not talk, and be very obvious in not being able to wait to get away from me.

At the Temporary Orders Hearing two weeks ago he seemed frustrated, not angry, and we actually got along decently. Not friendly, exactly, but at least having civil and normal conversations.

So I was just thrown a little by the return to anger.

The kids' counselor (who is in the same practice with the C we have an appt. with, and recommended him) said that the C would likely start off by asking what our expectations were, what we hoped to get out of the counseling.

Should I be honest and say I still want to save my M? (H is still pushing for a D, had his L send a letter to my L asking for a late April or early May court date.) Or should I just say I want to improve communication for the kids' sake?

I don't want to lie, but I don't want to come across as too pursuing, either.

[tpaschal]

Morning tpaschal,

Yes, your H is angry, probably deep in anger stage. Sorry your kids are going through this along with you.

It's been over a year since he moved out, and he was so angry then. I thought he had gotten over a lot of the anger, but now it's back.

When my W was in this stage I thought her anger was directed only at me because I could only see from my perspective. I later (months) found out it was directed at everyone she came in contact with, including OM.

Thank you for this. A couple of other people have told me this--my MIL and a couple of friends--but they have less contact with H than I do, so I figured they were just speculating. It's just so hard not to take it completely personally, you know? But it makes sense. I know he's angry at the kids all the time, and I think he's a bear at work, too. I guess if you're miserably, rottenly, unhappy and in pain to the core of your being, it comes out all the time, not just to the LBS.

Try to take heart in the fact that this isn't about you, nothing you did or didn't do could have prevented or caused it. It's his problem to deal with/work through but of course it affects you and your children.

I know this, but it's hard to remember in the pain of the moment.

My W and I had a couple of counseling sessions early on, got nowhere. I now wish I had gone dark in beginning. I think I may have avoided some of the spew/verbal abuse. Who knows?

Sorry that you had to go through the spew. This is far from early on for me and my H. The bomb drop was Dec. 06 and he moved out Feb. 07. He steadfastly refused to go to C for more than a year, and has just now agreed, so I had hoped it meant something. Still have trouble squashing my expectations.

If H quits C (and he probably will) you might consider you and kids going without him. Focus on your kids. They need you now more than ever. This is a lot harder on them than on us. That would probably be the best use of your energies right now as you can't do anything for your H, but you can make a difference in how your kids adjust/cope with this.

You are doing well and it does get easier over time.

Sleeper, thanks. I know I need to go into it with no expectations in regards to H. And I do plan to start the kids going again if he will agree to pay for it.

[tpaschal]

Regarding C session on Thursday:

I know to listen and validate, watch for cues from my H regarding his body language, tone of voice, etc. I know to be aware of my own body language and tone of voice, to say things using "I" statements, to stay away from blame and accusations.

But I am still confused about WHAT to talk about since I don't know why H agreed to go.

Can I talk about my reasons for wanting to save the M? Can I talk about the complaints he made that I now see were correct? Can I talk about the changes I've made?

Or will he see all this as begging and pursuing?

[momof2girls]

T
When you go to counseling and the counselor asks what you want to get out of this session tell him/her that you need to learn to put differences aside and co-parent your children.

don't say you want to save your M...instead when talking about the differences say you are coming from two different standpoints because you are not ready to divorce.

That way you are not begging or pursuing him, you are stating a fact. The counselor will know exactly what you mean. Is your counselor a pro-marriage?

My first counselor was not and basically she told me I was better off without H because he was lying, cheating etc...also thought MLC was BS.

I changed counselors and now the one I have is fantastic! H and I go to one together and I see one on my own because I still need her to vent...practice when I need to approach H on things.

I am still having a hard time forgiving totally. Currently, I am
in one of those ruts and I think very carefully before I talk to H because I know he is trying and I don't want to come across acting like I don't appreciate it.

[tpaschal]

T
When you go to counseling and the counselor asks what you want to get out of this session tell him/her that you need to learn to put differences aside and co-parent your children.

don't say you want to save your M...instead when talking about the differences say you are coming from two different standpoints because you are not ready to divorce.

That way you are not begging or pursuing him, you are stating a fact. The counselor will know exactly what you mean. Is your counselor a pro-marriage?

Momof2,

Thanks. This is good advice. Sorry I never got around to reconstructing my reply that got lost. It was a busy weekend!

Yes, the C is pro-marriage. He is the senior partner in the practice with the kids' C, and the kids' C is the one who recommended the DB/DR books to me. She told me the M C had done the DB/DR training course. And I have a friend whose H had a mini-MLC and an EA, and they went to this guy and he did help save their marriage.

If C brings convo. around to D vs. not D, how should I handle it? I would like to say: I understand H's reasons for wanting a D, that I take ownership of how I contributed to problems in the M, that I have learned and grown and changed through this process and believe the M is worth saving, but that I know at this point it is up to H.

Too much?

I am still having a hard time forgiving totally. Currently, I am
in one of those ruts and I think very carefully before I talk to H because I know he is trying and I don't want to come across acting like I don't appreciate it.

{{{Momof2}}} Sorry that you are in a rut. I have heard that piecing is even harder than the MLC-BS. I only hope I have a chance to find that out for myself someday!

Thanks for checking in on me. I am nervous about Thursday.

[momof2girls]

don't be nervous. I think your response to the D vs no D is PERFECT!!! don't take all the blame for your M problems, your H has just as much if not more to do with it.

Does he still live with OW?? You may also want to bring up that you are not sure how to handle someone else in your childrens lives.

[cat03]

[quote=momof2girls]Wish I could get inside his head.

You need to stop this thinking, it is what it is and you are trying to control his desicions/movements and making yourself anxious trying to change his mind.

momof2 gave you wonderful advice. The 4nowH and I went to C one last time after he dropped the D word on me, I vented there and he basically said "i'm just here for you, I just want this (M) over with", so basically your H c ould be going just to humor the court and follow orders and say he went.

As you give a quick summary of where you are stay objective. As I explained my new sitch to family /friends I tried to keep it short and said "this is not what I want but..."

Dont' put too much hope into that session, I know you wish something would light up on his brain, but chances are, after all that has happened, it might not happen at C or at all. Trying to keep your feet off the ground, don't mean to be a sti ck in the mud but honey, it's true.

[tpaschal]

don't be nervous. I think your response to the D vs no D is PERFECT!!! don't take all the blame for your M problems, your H has just as much if not more to do with it.

Thanks, Momof2!

I know that he is WAY more than 50% responsible for where we are right now, but I don't want him to have any excuse to say that the C session was just about attacking him or pointing out all the things he's done wrong. I'd rather he see that I am committed to change and to a NEW relationship with him. I'm not really that concerned with assigning blame.

Does he still live with OW?? You may also want to bring up that you are not sure how to handle someone else in your childrens lives.

As far as I know, OW does still live with him. But when discussing visitation, H's L said, "The standard is no overnight visitors of the opposite sex, but I see here that you have requested no contact? Is that right?" And I said yes. She asked my H if that was okay with him, and he said yes. Didn't seem angry about it, but was very quiet and subdued. Seemed like he had the weight of the world on his shoulders.

But I'm sure if a D becomes final, that will change. It DOES concern me, especially because D14 is so angry toward her.

[momof2girls]

take one day at a time...if this comes to a D you are going to have to be the rock for your children.

H never introduced OW to our kids or his family and friends, for that I am thankful. If your H did not object to no contact until the D is final then it doesn't sound all that serious to me.

I know they live together but don't put to much stock in that. It really doesn't mean anything except someone to pay half the bills. Maybe he doesn't think she is the type he wants around his kids...

How is your youngest handling things? When I went through everything my D had just turned 5 and she had a terrible time. Nightmares, crying for her Dad etc.. As heartbroken as I was I needed to show her that I was there for her.

It sounds like your H is in the picture as far as the kids go. Mine would go a week or more without calling and when he did take them for a weekend or a night he would pawn them off on my MIL.

Be yourself on Thursday. you will do fine. Have no expectations and don't be surprised if he pulls away from you after you are done. Sometimes if the MLCer reveals too much they retreat for awhile.

[tpaschal]

H never introduced OW to our kids or his family and friends, for that I am thankful. If your H did not object to no contact until the D is final then it doesn't sound all that serious to me.

I'm not sure. She's been living with him since mid-May, and I'm pretty sure she wears the pants in the relationship a lot of the time. She may be an immature, emotionally damaged child, but she is very manipulative and controlling. He may just not be introducing her to them yet because he thinks it will go worse for him with the judge. (True, of course.)

I know they live together but don't put to much stock in that. It really doesn't mean anything except someone to pay half the bills. Maybe he doesn't think she is the type he wants around his kids...

She is supposedly a good Christian girl, except that I don't think too much of her concept of Christianity. She used to be a very touchy feely oh-so-spiritual good girl who didn't even drink because it polluted Christ's temple. All that sure got dropped quickly when it became inconvenient---when it got in the way of her getting what she wanted---MY H!!

Since quitting her job as a receptionist in H's office, she's only worked part time. She is currently a part time massage therapist in a very small, new, spa in a hick town. So I don't think she's contributing too much to the bills!

On SuperBowl weekend he was supposed to have the kids but said he couldn't take them because he had planned a SB party at his apt. I told him too bad, I had plans already made, and he said the kids were welcome to come, but she would be there. H also said that he was going on with his life and "she will be a part of it." I knew he didn't really want to take the kids and was trying to manipulate and control me by saying she would be there, so I did the opposite of what he expected. Instead of saying, "No way!" I said, "Okay, that's fine, you can take them, but have you really thought this out? Do you really think it's wise for you to just show up and say, 'Hey, kids, this is my girlfriend and she lives here with me?'"

I said that he needed to make a plan of how to introduce her to the kids. I did also say (bad DB'ing) that I had heard things that made me concerned for the sake of my kids, like her saying that she doesn't really want anything to do with them. Of course, he denied that. He ended up walking out of house when I was in another room, and leaving the kids there without saying goodbye. Wouldn't answer his phone. Soooo immature.

But...he's not mentioned her since then. And at the Temporary Orders Hearing, he agreed to not have her around the kids at all. (We ended up settling our Temp. Orders ourselves, and did NOT have the judge decide---so this issue and the counseling were some things he agreed on, not that he was forced into by the court.)

Since then I heard some gossip that suggests the relationship isn't going well. I know that shouldn't be my concern, but I really do believe that H won't have have the...courage?...desire?...need...to focus on his own issues until she is on the way out of the picture.

How is your youngest handling things? When I went through everything my D had just turned 5 and she had a terrible time. Nightmares, crying for her Dad etc.. As heartbroken as I was I needed to show her that I was there for her.

I am so sorry to hear that about your youngest. My youngest was 4 1/2 when H moved out. She has had some separation anxiety and cries and whines very easily, but has taken it the best, actually. It's D14 who is incredibly angry, and S9 who is the sensitive soul who has been so hurt and is having nightmares, etc.

How are you kids handling things now? Any lingering issues?

It sounds like your H is in the picture as far as the kids go. Mine would go a week or more without calling and when he did take them for a weekend or a night he would pawn them off on my MIL.

Oh, not so much. H has only taken the initiative to call them 3 or 4 times since he moved out. Once on D5's bday, once to apologize for fighting w/ me in front of them, and once at Christmas. That's about it. H also goes for weeks at a time w/out seeing them. And he has also done the pawning off on in-laws thing.

Even after Temporary Orders, he STILL does not take them for the time he should. And when he does have them, they never know which dad they're gonna get from one minute to the next. Sometimes they have a lot of fun, but he often behaves very immaturely---arguing w/ kids, telling them they're idiots, not allowing D14 to say goodnight to me on the phone as a punishment, etc.

Be yourself on Thursday. you will do fine. Have no expectations and don't be surprised if he pulls away from you after you are done. Sometimes if the MLCer reveals too much they retreat for awhile.

Momof2---thanks so much. I am trying VERY hard to have NO expectations. <sigh> It's hard!