Purr has lost all hope. WAW/ MLC Second Thread

[Bruce1]

Purr:
Thanks for your kind wishes; trip is going well and it gives me an important reminder about finding my own joy each day. Sometimes easier said than done, as we all know too well, but I'm feeling better this morning and looking forward to a wonderful day. I hope you have a great one too; the power to make it great or not is within. I just read something online that I want to try to remember--disasters don't happen. Pain happens, but if we choose to see the events in our lives as disasters rather than learning opportunities, we miss what's essential for our growth. I don't believe this means learning is easy or quick, but I do think it means we can let the events of life lead us to just the pain, or we can use the events of life to gain insight into ourselves and others, and life in general. It may be a long and rocky road, but we decide our reactions to what life throws at us. Will we be victims who wallow in self hate and self pity, or will we use these moments as valuable, but painful, opportunities to learn?

[Purr]

Okay, well, here goes with my lists. First, for me re: GAL / progress for my own growth.

-really been pursuing a hobby that I have had over the last year or two. I've been putting more time into it and taking mini-courses that I have really enjoyed. It's satisfying to see my skills grow.
-I have continued to be taking much better care of myself physically. This means eating healthy (at least doing pretty well with it). I have been working out usually 3x / week since end December.
-Using the DB boards a lot for support!
-Have been slowly trying to build a couple of friendships with people I knew from before. Going for a walk / mini-hike with one tomorrow.
-Bought some new clothes over the last month (this has always been hard for me, so it's significant!).
-Generally been sleeping better now than a couple of months ago.
-Stopped all the "I love you" stuff mid-January. Worked hard at pursuing less and presenting as more grounded with her vs. like jello.
-Been in IC and working on my own stuff
-Reading lots of stuff on relationships, loss

I don't know if these are baby steps but it's a list of some things I have been doing to try to look after me. Is this what you mean, Ali & One Day?

Purr

[Purr]

Okay, now for the tougher list...baby steps I've seen in my W. I think it's hard because in the last couple of weeks, it's felt like a major shift towards her ending the relationship, but before that I saw some baby steps. That's where I get confused: I haven't seen any of late. W. has been away for a week now on her trip...no email.

Well, here goes:
-W. has maintained contact through email usually every 1-2 days since January.
-W. has moved from negligible contact, to going for a few walks, going out to dinner/theatre, going to MC for a few sessions (though W. says the MC has never been for reconciling, only "exploration")
-W. has said she wants to be free. A few weeks ago she said "I can easily imagine being with you and this all working out. And I can easily imagine not being with you and that being fine too." On our last walk before her trip, she said "I can't imagine being with you. And I can't really imagine being with someone else." I suppose the positive is that it's not final for her, but hard to see a baby step at all there.
-W. held my arm while we walked. Hugged silently 10 minutes in the rain (is this positive, or just a goodbye?)
-W. asked me re: MC to send her the date to confirm next session.
-this stuff re: work I am doing on myself is noticed and "very attractive to her" (but then all kinds of other stuff re: frustrations, don't want to work on anything, see other people etc....how does that fit together?!)

I have to say that it is very confusing. And she kept saying "I'm not wanting to work on it...right now" She always has this qualifier on there. But saying she thinks about dating others and that she wants to have us "live our lives apart" seems very hard to see as a baby step. That's a major thing I have a hard time overlooking. It really feels like it's on the edge of ending.

Okay, that's what I can see. Feel free to help me wherever I am stuck!! I've been having a hard time the last few days trying to not have expectations/hopes of email, trying not to think about her surrounded with men and booze at a vulnerable time, etc. To be honest, those thoughts are proving very difficult for me right now.

I'm not sure if I did these lists right! Comments or feedback? Blindspots for me that can be seen? Any support would be kindly welcome : )

Purr

[One Day]

Hey Purr,

I liked your baby steps list- it's great!

But I noticed that when you made your W's baby step list you lost a bit of your PMA. I have re-quoted below and removed what I think are the negatives by striking through- I hope it illustrates how negative thinking is affecting your interpretation of events......

It's hard because in the last couple of weeks, it's felt like a major shift towards her ending the relationship, but before that I saw some baby steps.

-W. has maintained contact through email usually every 1-2 days since January.
-W. has moved from negligible contact, to going for a few walks, going out to dinner/theatre, going to MC for a few sessions (though W. says the MC has never been for reconciling, only "exploration")
-W. has said she wants to be free. A few weeks ago she said "I can easily imagine being with you and this all working out. And I can easily imagine not being with you and that being fine too." On our last walk before her trip, she said "I can't imagine being with you. And I can't really imagine being with someone else." I suppose the positive is that it's not final for her, but hard to see a baby step at all there.
-W. held my arm while we walked.
-Hugged silently 10 minutes in the rain
-W. asked me re: MC to send her the date to confirm next session.
-this stuff re: work I am doing on myself is noticed and "very attractive to her" (but then all kinds of other stuff re: frustrations, don't want to work on anything, see other people etc....how does that fit together?!)
- "I'm not wanting to work on it...right now" She always has this qualifier on there. But saying she thinks about dating others and that she wants to have us "live our lives apart" seems very hard to see as a baby step. That's a major thing I have a hard time overlooking. It really feels like it's on the edge of ending.

.....so with a PMA your list would read....

I saw some baby steps.

-W. has maintained contact through email usually every 1-2 days since January.
-W. has moved from negligible contact, to going for a few walks, going out to dinner/theatre, going to MC for a few sessions
-it's not final for her,
-W. held my arm while we walked.
-Hugged silently 10 minutes in the rain
-W. asked me re: MC to send her the date to confirm next session.
-this stuff re: work I am doing on myself is noticed and "very attractive to her"
- "I'm not wanting to work on it...right now" - she wants to work on it in the future

The second list looks pretty positive to me (much more than the first!)......Do you think you're focussing too much on what your W says? In DR MWD says that you musn't believe anything they say and only 50% of what they do (or focus on the positives). That's because they are hurting, so will say things to justify their actions. However, when they do something positive, it's usually forced it's way out of the ether, so it counts all the more that you're seeing it.

Hugging you for 10 minutes is huge for a girl- if I was saying goodbye to my H and walking away it'd be a quick hug and a peck on the cheek. So is her going to MC with you (whatever she says it's for)

Print off the POSITIVE list and stick it on your mirror!

Whatever you are doing, she is liking it- she told you it was attractive to her, which is MASSIVE! And often, a WAS will have a period of withdrawal after taking baby steps- it's a way of checking themselves. Patience and PMA my friend! I'm jealous of the positive list you have! I wish my H would say he found me attractive (or hug me for 10 minutes, or go to MC with me, or even talk about working on it!).

L.xx

PS Sorry for the really long post- I think this is a record, even for me!

[AliSuddenly]

I agree with Lisa! I'm jealous too! My BF hasnt initiated any R or even personal talk about me, since the bomb!! And any talks we had since, I bought up and that all ended 22 December. You have a massive advantage here... she cries, she tells you she cant imagine life without you..shes in MC with you..

Anyway, knowing your sitch, I think I can remember some more positive baby steps...

- She emailed you after a MC session to ask your feedback
- she emailed you before her trip and clearly wanted to fit in a talk or visit with yuo before she left (her idea!)
- she emailed (phoned?) you to offload about work stuff and ask your advice and hence "turned to you" for help in this area
- she emailed you (phoned?) to tell you she was excited to see your name on the bottom of something at work (like she was proud for you!)
- she said you were in the top 95 percentile of men (OH MY GOD!)
- she thanked you for a nice evening in the car when you dropped her off then asked you if you were ok

um, cant remember any more...but reread your own sitch and dig them out, as I am sure theres been tonnes! And it is a big deal she is still going to MC and wants to be reminded of the next session by email...her claiming shes only going to break up with you is peverse (and possibly a fib !)

Try not to dwell on her and men and alchohol...considering the stresed out confused weepy state shes in right now, being a woman, I can tell you...any encounter or fling she may have (MAY!) would leave her feeling empty hollow and even more sad. I bet. Shes 43, shes in MLC, shes not in the mood for romance. So put it out of your mind! Dont picture her with some guy, picture her sat in a crummy hotel room, picking at a suspicious stain on her bedspread and feeling lost and lonely... there see, thats better!

Enjoy your mini hike! (is that like twice round the carpark or something!?). Thinking of you, us English girls will look after you!

Ali xxx

[Purr]

How much do I love you English girls?!

Okay, thanks One Day for the edited version to clean up my list. Yes, I see more what you mean here. You make a good point about not always taking what she says as 100% true, end of story. It's hard to know what to hear as "true" and what is just some MLC fog talk, especially when my W. sounds VERY convincing about it. I can listen to a lot of stuff from her (and she does make some valid points about some of my / our shortcomings) but this recent stuff about ("maybe") seeing others is a trigger for me.

BUT, I noticed that the edited list is more factually based of things that happened. So that helps. (mind you, there is editing out of other stuff she said--how do you know which is valid??)

p.s. OneDay, re: the 10 minute hug and goodbye, I meant as in "goodbye, we know it is over" kind of hug vs. "bye, see you next week". It did feel very sad. But this does beg the question, if she has been so set on not working on it and it is so hopeless, what have the last 4 months of fence sitting been about for her? I used to think the guilt was the main thing, but it really seems that, in addition to it, there is something else making her hesitate beyond just her fear of hurting me.

Also, thanks for the comment earlier about being solid for her. I need to do this for me first and foremost, and understand it can also be helpful for the relationship.

Ali,

You made me LOL re: the hotel thing!! I'm pretty sure she's at a fancy place, but hey, even those will have the occasional unknown sheet stain now, won't they? She has been saying that she regularly gets sexual attention from men and that she feels attracted at times and this was really missing for us in the relationship. But you know, I'm appreciating from your and One Day's messages that not everything may be great for her all the time and you are right about a sexual excursion not being something that will be emotionally fulfilling.

A mini hike is something that is less than 2 hours and relatively flat! LOL! So, it could be a number of times around the carpark, depending on the size of the lot.

Right, a couple of 2x4s are helpful for me every now and then. I will continue to think about what you have been saying here.

Thanks,

Purr

[Bruce1]

Purr:

First, I want to congratulate you on what you are doing for yourself. You are going to be a happier, healthier (in every sense of that word), more alive person because of the work you are doing. It will take a long time but you are on the path.

I also want to second what others have said. There are several good signs from your W, but the future is still unclear. Still, keep at it as long as you want to find a way to reconciliation. If you quit, then it will be over. Quit if you want to, but stay in there if you do not.

[AliSuddenly]

Ha, well English girls are the best in the world! I'm glad I made you laugh... you know, that was when things started to "turn" for me and my BF. We'd had some cautious emails for a while and then he actually let me know his movements (which he hadnt been doing before) and told me he was away on a course for a few days - thereby letting me know he was out of email contact. This was Valentine week, but it was also our anniversary. So I replied the next day (on our 9 year anniversary!) and all I did was send him a chatty funny email, so nothing heavy or even formal, just funny! In it I said I could picture him in some crappy Travellodge with just a Gideon bible and a suspicious stain on the bedspread for company...
and he emailed back to say that had really made him laugh!

And its been a very slow upwards trajectory ever since... so, I really think humour is a good way to reach these WAS, I know Lisa has done too..the more chatty and friendly and witty you are, they more they see you in a positive light and that contrasts surely with their own inner guilt/misery/turmoil! These WAS feel bad about themselves because they left us. We feel initially bad about ourselves because they left us! But if you can tough it out and be humorous, even tease her a little... I dont know if you've already been trying to make her laugh at all (hey, even smile is a start). I think you did when you went to the theatre that time?

Anyway, if and when she does email you, I'd keep it light and less formal and make some jokes!

If she says she is attacting sexual attention and that was missing from the R.. why is that? Is she having the classic MLC thing, eeek, I'm getting old and I am a woman and this is my last chance to turn a few heads before I hit the menopause !? Or is it that the passion had naturally eased off becuase you were together a long time, or is it that it was always missing? Have you tried to slip a few compliments in when you see her? It wasnt something my BF said to me, but I still have tried recently to be brave and say stuff like "you look nice, that coat really suits you" or something..he always comes back with, oh this old thing, or oh, I didnt even style my hair.. or well, he bats it away but thats his depression maybe or maybe he doesnt like hearing that stuff from me..but have you tried that? To gently show her that you find her attractive in a kind of non persueing way !? (this stuff is all so tricky isnt it, its a tightrope act!)

Also well done on getting out for walks and buying new clothes! You want to aim for a complete new outfit on next time you see her, something you think she'd like to see you in. My BF leaving has cost me a fortune at the hairdressers, hairdyes and new clothes. Lisa's bought up half of the silicone supplies in London, Kalni has changed her hair colour more times than shes had hot dinners.. c'mon you men, you need to catch up with us girls! Complete makeover!

Ali xxx

[Purr]

But if you can tough it out and be humorous, even tease her a little... I dont know if you've already been trying to make her laugh at all (hey, even smile is a start).

Yes, humor has often been a part of our contact and does make her laugh. Sometimes it is hard for me to go there when things feel so difficult. But definitely she has enjoyed this from what I can tell.

If she says she is attacting sexual attention and that was missing from the R.. why is that? Is she having the classic MLC thing, eeek, I'm getting old and I am a woman and this is my last chance to turn a few heads before I hit the menopause !? Or is it that the passion had naturally eased off becuase you were together a long time?

I would say yes to both of these reasons. She speaks directly to the second one a lot (making the focus me usually) but she has spoken occasionally to the first one and from my perspective, that is a hugely significant part. She's said she feels scared that her body is changing, time is running out and that she'll never be able to really experience this and it is such an important part of her life and she is in her prime now and doesn't want it to go to waste. I'm paraphrasing badly, I'm sure, but this is the essence of it. She doesn't speak to this in MC at all though--it's all about me / "us", but none of this MLC part about her stuff is spoken.

Hard to write this, but that's my take on it.


Purr

[Purr]

Journalling

I've had my usual swings and struggle this past several days, but in the last couple of days I've had these very brief experiences of what I think might be detaching. It doesn't last long, maybe a few minutes to an hour or two. During those times I've felt partially resigned but also just trying to face the reality that this may be over. In those brief moments I have a sense of idealizing my W. less: I look at some of how she has handled things and think maybe I deserve someone who has a greater commitment, who is more open to working on a relationship. I just feel sick when I hear her say she feels trapped in our relationship. That is an awful feeling to know that your partner feels that way and is very hard for me to bear. I would like to be with someone who wants to be with me and love me.

Anyway, those are just moments and then they evaporate. Presently, I'm feeling quite down. I haven't had an email from my W. in about a week. That's the longest absence of contact since she first moved out. I'm not sure it's a negative thing either. In a way I would love to hear from her, but I'm seeing that our last several contacts (MC, email, walk) have been difficult. I was so confused after our last walk before she left that I really have no sense of where she is right now, and indeed that may well be continuing to shift around for her.

I'm going out to see a friend today which I am looking forward to, but I am also going to look at a couple of open houses (which I am far less happy about). I'm trying to begin thinking about where I may live if things do not work out, and I just have a feeling (which I hope is wrong) that our R. may conclude very soon. I know there are some positive signs from the posting above and I definitely acknowledge them, but at the same time there are no guarantees. Looking at open houses is very hard for me to do, because I don't want a life without her, but I realize I'm not really in charge of whether we're together or not. I've only got my vote to cast and at least I've been consistent and really clear on my vote. Unfortunately, one vote isn't enough to make a R. work. I'm certainly not going to tell my W. I'm doing this, but I figure it is okay just to get some information. I just feel I need to begin taking steps to prepare and figure out what my life is going to look like in the event that she does not want to do this anymore.

I'm really confused, guys...I feel very mixed up about this part, and it has been hard to trust my own emotions in this process. Normally I have really done well with following my feelings and gut (pre-bomb), but now I still feel like it is hard to know how to see things in a balanced way. So, I'm not sure if something like looking at open houses is ridiculous and premature or if I should already have been doing this long ago! I feel very vulnerable presently and am anticipating another "bomb" upon her return. Maybe I will go and have a look at 1 or 2 places and see what it is like.

Purr