Waw At full speed

[kturnernc]

Yeah, tough deal buddy. Try not to think on it too much. It is only a piece of clothing. You have to remember that you are changing, so is she and a good bit of things still have to be decided. It is a crappy situation, but things may get better. You are still able to have conversations with her. That is good. Keep moving forward and making progress on yourself.

Stay strong, stay positive.

[tomcat65]

Well went to the laywer today.Says shes going to get after W for child support,b/c she hasnt gave us anything,and also for some house bills.Feel kind of torn about doing,on one hand im doing it for the good of my family,I have to take care of my kids.On the other i hope it doesnt destroy any chance I have with W.I know Im doing the right thing.But its still real conflicting.

[tomcat65]

With all this laywer stuff going on around me,Im really starting to lose hope.This is going way to fast to fit any long term soulutionin to hope W changes her mind about this.Im still doing the 180s keeping calm and happy when im around W.Taking care of myself the best i can.Just feel lost right now!

[kturnernc]

I hear ya Mike. I was doing a lot of talking to my lawyer last week as well. things do seem helpless when they get involved. I have been voluntarily paying child support to my wife since the beginning. The lawyer told me that it showed that I was caring for my kids and family. If you are struggling money-wise, I would go for the child support. You have to keep hope alive for your R, but you have to keep moving forward for your kids. If it is a hardship for you, the additional money will make it easier. I would not worry so much what it will do to the R. To me, this is one of those things that she will have to get used to because of her choice.

My sitch is a bit reversed, she was going to leave and take the kids, so to keep them in the house, i left. I was the LBS but left. Seems screwed up.

Anyway, hang in there brother. Look out for the kids and concentrate on other things. Take small steps and do not slide.

[tomcat65]

I am going for child support,ken.But funny thing has happened to me,just pretty much got this under control today.I stated to feel like i just wanted to run from this just to get away from everything its taken me two and a half days to get a grip.Really flipped me out.The thing with W hasnt changed a bit.still talk,but very little ,always very quick and to the point.I think this weekend i will start packing some of her stuff.I have left everything in its place,she does notice.I think she sees it like i still waiting for her,something she would expect me to do,so i think I will pull a 180 on her,Dont think it will hurt anything but i have to start moving on.I just cant look at the stuff anymore.Any thoughts

[kturnernc]

Well do something that will provide you with a 180. It may help the situation a bit. It is hard to determine what to do because the WAS is still going along one line and not change. Especially when you are trying to imporove yourself. Keep working on it and let us know what happens.

[tomcat65]

Well moved some of W stuff on friday she picked it up friday afternoon,Boy i guess they do change after a while,didnt even faze her about me packing anything,still talks right to the point almost cold,If I ask her anything specific she just tells me she tried about everything and just gave up.Now also she dresses like a biker chick,she never wore a skirt or leather in ten years.Seems like the more i try DBing the colder and more distant she is becoming.She doesnt even talk to my two younger sons it doesnt even seem to faze her,nothing about the family seems to anymore.Im trying my hardest to keep this together,but when i see her then she leaves its really starting to tear my heart out.I know im supposed to detach but it seems like im having a lot more trouble with this lately.I think i have to much hope I just wish she would see what shes doing to everyone around her,I just dont know,Sorry for rambling

[kturnernc]

Better to ramble to us than her. Keep it business like. From what i have read, the WAS tend to try and change their appearance because that is a quick change to get away. I would not think twice on it. But I hear ya. My WAS decided she was going to start dressing nicer and stuff that I had asked her to do during the M but never did. Oh well, nothing you can do about it. As far as the family sitch... it is hard, very hard sometimes. Do something to pamper you and the kids. go out for ice cream or something, something fun. Bounce a ball but seriously, stay positive for the kids.

Don't let the wife pull you down. You are a stronger person and are actively trying to better yourself. If you have stopped DBing, start new. Read the books again, re-read your first posts and try to gauge any changes. We are still here for you Mike. Keep it going.

[25yearsmlc]

Dear Guys,

I'm so sorry you are here, but it is the right place for help. Just several thoughts. First, it's never truly over in a way. I've got two relatives who divorced their spouses, only to later re-marry their former spouses. And yes, the 2nd time around was better.

LRT is actually more helpful than some think. I read a post under the Last Resort Therapy "topics" section post from 9-19 with Tia as the moderator. In some cases it outlines a plan of action that helps a lot.

For me, I got a DB coach and had several sessions with her, and they helped probably more than any other single thing. God willing, my M will continue to improve and stabilize as it seems to be. So, I'm passing on her advice although I wasn't successful 100% at times either doing her suggestion, or having it work visibly.

All in all though, it was the most effective approach and in the long run, a lot cheaper than divorcing. I also eventually found a pro-M counselor (after 4 others told my H things he didn't want to hear anymore. I was left with the impression from the other t's that it was over, go home and get a divorce, or be a doormat, etc. And it did look bad for us). He was hugely helpful and eventually when H met with him, they clicked. Which was a Godsend. Literally.

So, here is what the DB coach said, and it often overlapped with the pro-M therapist.

"Applaud loudly for the 1% of positive things they say or do, regardless of the crappy rest". This is INCREDIBLY HARD TO DO.... in other words, you have to affirm the puny little nicety and for now, ignore the overall crap. Compliment without going overboard, be sincere but more effusive than you've likely been. If something was managed well, you can say ,"good job on that, btw". My example was that I had become extremely angry about being stuck paying the bills b/c it was stressful as hell, and a pain, etc. So I wanted to blast H for yet another injustice/hassle/pain inflicted. He had resented paying them "by himself" all these years. I recall those nights he would pay the bills with a grimace on his face muttering about how wasteful we all were, not helping, etc.

So when I mentioned a bill that needed to be addressed, he said "Yeah I know it's a bad sitch, I've been doing it all for 20 years!" The "new" me replied, "That's true, and I want to thank you for that b/c I see now what a drag it is and how stressful it can be..." Silence at his end for a full 30 seconds. Then he said, "um, thanks." For me it was a turning point b/c I taught myself something about how to really make a point towards a goal.
If you want a reconciliation with your wife, each of you has to ask whether what you are about to say or do, will bring you closer to that goal. If and when the goal changes, keep that in mind.

"Listen like a lover" meaning, when she's talking about work, kids, whatever UNRELATED to the M, validate as much as you feel you can.
The self esteem of a WAW IS LOW, trust me on that. Especially for a mother, no matter how cool she pretends to be.

Do Not initiate M or D talk. Be the one to end the conversations, keeping them to the point, nicely but in a way that lets the WAS know you're upbeat but quite busy with moving forward, etc.

If she brings up R talk, according to my DB coach, try to veer off topic as R talk can be BS or manipulative or probing, or temporary feelings you don't know if you can trust. Otherwise, listen as carefully as you can. If the talk is constructive, validate and let things sink in. If it's destructive, end it firmly without losing your temper. You can say, "this isn't productive, call me when you think it will be." Also if she abuses you over the top, you can say "I deserve better than this" and walk away.

Let the L's do the legal stuff, period. That's why we (sorry, but I'm a L, yet a nice person and still married...but I digress) charge money. We deal with the "unpleasantness" of your nightmare so you don't have to do it as much. Let your L earn their fees and keep the legal stuff between the L's.

Now if it gets crazy expensive, as all clients feel it does, you may need to assess that but if you've picked a decent L, they'll tell you what battles are worth fighting in court.

TomCat I thought your kids were grown, so maybe I'm confusing the two of you. Are you going for child support? Regardless, if you have young or needy children, (not adults just living there indefinitely--which might have been an issue for her) you have to put them first. That is the one clear goal you have to keep in mind, minimize damage to them. Also means never fight in front of the kids. Don't let fears of rejection or alienation take food out of your children's mouths. Plus, it is a consequence of her choices.

Do Not point out the consequences or wrongness of her actions. Let life do that. You don't have to.

Lose the anger in front of her. It only fuels her justification for leaving. Instead, counter all the negative images she's presently and constantly reminding herself of, with positives.

Similarly, lose the "parental tone/voice" in discussions. Meaning, instead of the normal LBS questions WE ALL want to ask them, like "Why are you doing this!? How could you hurt us all like this?," etc. You have to keep that parental voice quiet for now, so their own inner voice can be heard. I read somewhere that most "why" questions are going to be interpreted as an attack and makes the other person defensive...fwiw.

Be upbeat, doing interesting things, meeting fascinating people and going to exciting new places... Of course that's tough, but fake it 'til you make it.

In short, be a man only a fool would leave.

Do the 180's as much as possible, but don't do one and then stare at her to check for a response. For one thing, that isn't a 180' really, it's manipulation. She'll see it for what it is and won't "believe it's sincere" on your part. Plus, the reaction she has will be internal for some time. You won't know it for awhile, just as my h seemed not to notice things but later made comments that showed me he had indeed noticed almost every single change I made.

Set attainable, measurable goals for now. Like, "not fighting in the next conversation with W"... literally that was my first goal after H left. Just to stay calm on the phone and not "lose it."

Remember that your children will all face setbacks or betrayals of some type, in their lives. You are facing one of the worst, and they are watching you more than you know. You have to model forgiveness for them; and how to handle this with dignity and strength.

You will also have to forgive her (even if she doesn't know it) because that frees you. Not talking about condoning her choices, or doing it now, but just that you cannot let yourself be consumed by the justifiable anger you feel. It will poison your life if you let it.

Maybe the legacy of your M will be a reconciliation with forgiveness as the key ingredient. Without forgiving her, eventually, there will be no reconciliation. Trust will have to be earned, etc. but forgiveness is key.

Or maybe you'll heal and move on in your life without her. Either way, you will love and laugh again, and your life will get better. You will need to learn patience ( x 1000) in a whole new way.

At some point you will also need to look at your role in this. Even though she has made these terrible choices, you have to know what YOU would do differently so that you improve as a partner, whether for her or another woman. Those might be the 180 choices you make. In other words if she complains that you have a bad temper, demonstrate the opposite by not losing it when something is said or done that would normally have set you off. That's a change worth making anyhow. Plus it eliminates her complaints, rationalizations, etc.

I certainly am working on staying with the changes I promised myself I'd make. It's so easy to slip back into our old patterns of behavior. I'm educated and think of myself as smart. But when I look back at the behaviors I repeated for years, I wonder. For instance, when H would come home late from work, taking extra call, etc., I'd take it personally. As if it meant that he preferred work to family, or money, etc. I'd "welcome him home with closed arms, emotionally". It didn't work. Ever. What was I thinking? Why not make the home warm and friendly, which would have probably changed the times and choices that were within H's control. Not all of them were.

He had a prolonged MLC and it is still unwinding, but he has changed, and so have I. I've forgiven far more than I thought I would, or could. Sometimes I get angry all over again and find myself witholding from him. Then I come here, and try to re-group and get centered. Usually it helps.

Above all, behave with as much strength, dignity and grace as you can, especially in front of your sons. Do not bad mouth their mother b/c it will NEVER help your relationships with them. She is the mother of your children and guess what? No mother is unmoved by the closeness of her children to their biological father. She'll notice. But shame and guilt won't bring her back. Trying to 'guilt her' will backfire and may come out as anger at you. You will never regret taking the high road.

Need some more info from you Tom, as in how long the M was, any prior M's, other children, etc. Any other signs? Any possibility that she felt unloved by you or not enough attention and if so, could this be a test of how much you'll fight for her? I'm just asking...not suggesting it.

Good luck gentlemen, you are in the right place and in it for the long haul. Stay strong. If you get a chance, read up on Faithisbelieving's thread. His sitch may not turn out the way he wanted, but he's a great model of what a man can be, in my female eyes. He and faithfulH, DonH, Was2Sad, are some of the men who've helped me understand my h more. There are tons of women here too. You can read up on the things the WAW say when they come back, as some have.
(( j ))

[smith18]

j -

Thank you for the very excellent reply. I found it very helpful.