Please help...need MLC advice

[CMNM]

T,

First of all, hugs to you. You are certainly dealing with a lot these days!

You are doing so well with the kids. I am very impressed with the prayers (even for OW? Wow-- that is just great that you can do that) and the talks that you are having. I see no way of handling this better.

My question to you is this:
Who made the suggestion of counseling that your H agreed to?

Now another one:
If he did go, what do you hope for it to accomplish?

I guess I want to see where you are with this before I offer up my opinion. I do have to say that I like the sound of the psychologist that your kids are seeing. I mean, recommending DB must mean pro-marriage...and, more importantly, someone who won't just flippantly tell him that the kids will be fine. "Kids are resilient." Man, I HATE that saying!!!

As for the house..
are you SURE you won't be able to stay in it? Though, it does sound as if a smaller one might be better for you anyway. (less cleaning! :)) If you know that it has to be sold, well, I always recommend being in control when you can, so that would mean contacting the realtor. You don't have to sign anything right now, but it would be helpful for you to have someone come out and give you an idea of what it could sell for, as well as to tell you the things that need to be done to get it ready to sell. As I recall, your H isn't really keeping up with things around there. All of this information is good to have, and again, it doesn't mean that you have to put it on the market right away.

Again, I am really sorry you are dealing with all of this.

Breathe. Relax. It will be O.K. Honest.

Pam

[Grace_O]

((((tpaschal))))

Breathe. I know it's hard and it hurts, but breathe. I'm afraid I wouldn't be any help with the legal stuff (I'm not there), but if he agreed to see a C, how about an e-mail asking if he wants to set it up or if he'd prefer you did? I like text and e-mail b/c I can keep it to just the facts and right now I really don't feel like interacting with him. As far as who the kids see, did they like the C they saw before? I don't see any reason to start over with someone new, but I don't have a background in this. Perhaps a call to the C to get their input.

With regards to the realtor you could say you haven't yet, but it on the list and then pose the question about the C.

It's hard to talk to the kids about what's going on in a way that doesn't blame. I use reflective listening when I can. D's have not been very forthcoming with regards to how they feel about all of this. I wound't expect them to, after all they are teenagers. I use books, movies and whatever comes to mind that has a topic that I can use to spark a convo about it. Then I ask then how they feel about it and so far I haven't gotten much, but I do get glimmers here and there. Just acknowleding how much they miss him and how sad it is (and asking how they feel), may be a place to start. The C is good too esp if they need/want it.

Hang in there and don't forget to breathe.

[tpaschal]

You are doing so well with the kids. I am very impressed with the prayers (even for OW? Wow-- that is just great that you can do that) and the talks that you are having. I see no way of handling this better.

Pam,

Thanks for your response. I'm gonna answer your questions in more than one post, cause I do tend to write novella length posts.

Praying for the OW? Oy---it's hard. It is kind of still in the "fake it" part of "fake it til you make it." Well, not exactly. Maybe. It's hard to say---it changes from one day to the next. Some days I pray for her because I mean it, some days I pray for her because I know I ought to. Ya know? I know God knows my heart, but I do believe that he wants me to pray for her, and if I DO it even when I DON'T want to, then it becomes easier for me to want to. Does that make any sense at all?

When the kids and I pray for her, we do keep it VERY simple. "Dear God, you know that we miss our Daddy very much. Please take care of him and keep him safe. God, you know that Daddy and the girl are making some choices and doing some things that make us sad. God, please help Daddy and the girl turn back to You and listen to You so that they will know what You want them to do with their lives."

D14 pretty much refuses to do the bedtime routine and prayers with us, so this is what S9 and D5 pray. (Along with all the thank you's for the beautiful day, and the nice rain that watered our flowers, and the fun time at dance class or soccer practice, etc., etc.---plus all the GodBlesses, of course!!)

It IS hard. I don't want them to be bitter against H or OW (okay, okay, yes I would be happier if they hated OW's guts!), but I do want to teach them that it is against God's Word.

[tpaschal]

My question to you is this:
Who made the suggestion of counseling that your H agreed to?

Now another one:
If he did go, what do you hope for it to accomplish?

I guess I want to see where you are with this before I offer up my opinion. I do have to say that I like the sound of the psychologist that your kids are seeing. I mean, recommending DB must mean pro-marriage...and, more importantly, someone who won't just flippantly tell him that the kids will be fine. "Kids are resilient." Man, I HATE that saying!!!

I've been asking him to go for counseling since he dropped the bomb. (Pre-DB'ing.) I could tell he was depressed---not sleeping, not eating, lost a lot of weight, etc. But even though he would lie awake at night and sometimes talk to me about how he was feeling, and acknowledged on more than one occasion that he needed to talk to someone (a professional), of course he would never go.

When I told him I thought he was depressed and needed to be on medication, he got extremely angry, yelled at me and told me that I was minimizing his feelings, that a little pill wasn't going to make it all go away. I asked him what he would recommend if a patient came in with these symptoms, and he got even angrier and slammed out of the house. Hit a nerve much? I mentioned depression and medication one more time before he moved out, and he got very nasty and told me that going on an antidepressant often made people more decisive and able to act on their feelings, and did I really want him to decide to leave me when he was still feeling confused and conflicted?

After he moved out, I've mentioned marriage counseling maybe three or four times over the past 12 months. Once or twice I made smart-*ss remarks that probably didn't help---when he would whine about finances or money paid to the Lawyers, I would say, "Well, MC sure would have been a lot cheaper!"

And once or twice I've said, "I think there is still something here that's worth saving. I think it's worth a few counseling sessions to see."

Sometimes he would react negatively, sometimes he wouldn't react at all.

As for the kids counseling, several times he's said they don't need it, they'll be fine, KIDS ARE RESILIENT (ha!), they're fine when they're with him, etc. But when I would counter with why they DID need it, he agreed to pay for it. At least he did until October, when he pretty much quit paying for anything!

The kids' counselor did call him once back in March 07 to ask if he would come in to meet with her and D14, or come in by himself so that C could get an idea of what was going on from his point of view to be able to help D14. He refused.

Over the past 4-6 months I've asked him a few times to go to counseling with the kids, or for he and I to go together to learn how to co-parent the kids through all of this. He kept refusing.

At our first mediation appt. in November (which ultimately failed---nothing was agreed on) I asked for marriage counseling, he refused. I countered with asking for joint parent/child counseling sessions, or co-parenting counseling, he refused. Mediator said he told her he had tried to work on the marriage for years, had bought lots of books, and he was past that. She rolled her eyes more than once as she relayed that message!!

Our Temporary Orders hearing was set for Feb. 13, but it got rescheduled. He asked me to meet with him to see if we could figure some things out. He basically gave me the talk of how things would go much easier for me if we could just work things out on our own, but badly for me if I kept dragging it through the courts. I listened but didn't say too much. He said he knew he hadn't always done right by the kids and wanted to do better. I brought up counseling, and said I had asked him several times to go with the kids to be able to talk to them better and get through this, and he said okay.

However, nothing much came of this conversation. He didn't give me the money to be able to schedule counseling for the kids. I do think his main intent was to manipulate me, to soften me up to doing things his way.

At the rescheduled Temporary Orders on March 12, H came out in the hallway where I was sitting with my friend and asked if he could talk to me for a minute. I said okay. We talked for a little while, some agreeing and validating from me, along with a few reminders (not snarky, but calm and firm) that things weren't all as he was making them out to be.

At one point though we were bickering a little (no raised or angry voices, though, just frustrated with each other) with him telling me that if I acted adversarily it made him not want to see the kids and me saying that just sounded like an excuse to not see the kids and how sad was that, so on and so forth, and he called me by OW's name! I just looked him dead in they eye and said, "Oh, so I guess you have the same type of adversarial conversations with her." He sighed and said, "Yeah, probably so."

A few minutes later he asked if he and I could sit down with our two lawyers and work out some things before going in front of the judge. I agreed.

We all went in to a conference room together. My lawyer asked why H wanted the meeting. H said he wanted to try to work out a few things, etc. This was the first time I had ever met H's lawyer. I was very nice, calm, polite, but honest. I said that I had made it clear to H and to my Lawyer from day one that I did not want a divorce. I said we are in this situation because it is what H wants.

We talked about a lot of issues, mostly financial, and I can't remember what order things went in. H and I were talking directly to each other, and we did work together to explain some things to the lawyers about how his practice worked and how he got paid, etc.

At one point I asked about counseling. I said that the kids were very troubled and having problems dealing with everything, including S9 having problems in school. I got a little choked up when talking about the kids. I said that I had asked several times for him to go to joint counseling sessions with the kids, and he had refused. I said that I had even had to cancel the kids counseling because I couldn't afford it. I said that I thought our marriage was worth saving. I got a little teary and said I thought 21 years and three kids was worth at least one session of marriage counseling!

H's Lawyer said to me, "Oh, I agree. I've been telling him that from the beginning."

Through this part of the convo., H looked....sad? Guilty? I can't describe it. He is NOT a happy person, IMO.

He said, "That's fine. The kids can go to counseling, I'll go with them, I'll even go with you."

My L asked who would pay for it, and H said he would, at the same time as H's L said, "Oh, H will. I'll make sure of that."

Then the convo. moved on to other things.

At the end my L got angry, and he got up and walked out.

We had pretty much finished our convo., but me, H, and H's L were kind of dumbfounded. H made a snarky comment about my L, and I said, "He's upset with me. He's afraid for me. He's seen too many women give in to their H's because they still loved them and didn't want their marriages to end, and then end up getting screwed over by their H's. He doesn't want that to happen to me."

H said he wasn't trying to screw me over. I just kept it light and said kind of teasingly/jokingly, "Well, H, you haven't exactly been the most trustworthy or honorable guy this past year. You've done some dishonest things."

He defended himself and said the only thing he done that was questionable was to have a girlfriend. I just kind of snorted and said, "Yeah, that's kind of a biggie!" But again, it was said very lightly, almost teasingly. He didn't take offense.

We talked about the kids for a minute, and asked H's L how much longer this was going to take since I needed to pick up the kids from school, and I said that I might need to call MIL to pick them up.

I think seeing us interact was kind of a revelation to H's L.

As I said, it was my first time to meet her, so maybe she was expecting a b*tch on wheels? I know he's been telling his L crap about me, orchestrated by OW. (Don't ask how I know, I just do.)

For the rest of the afternoon (waiting around to be called in by the judge, talking about a few other issues, etc.) H's L made comments two or three times about kids and finances along the lines of, "If you are able to work things out, you'll still want to...." and "If you end up staying married, you'll need to....

And as we left the building at the end of the day we were going through a very narrow passageway where the security check station was. My L was leading, then me, then H's L, then H. H was far enough behind that he couldn't hear, and H's L said to me, "Good luck to you. I hope it all works out." I said, "Thanks."

Then yesterday when my L called, he said he needed to know where to go from here. I asked what he meant, and he said he thought we were going to counseling and maybe reconciling. I said no, we hadn't done that yet. He said the case was pretty much dead in the water, and needed to know what I wanted done.

So, were the L's both seeing something that I missed? Should I have jumped on the counseling thing right away? I did make an appt. for next Thursday, but did I miss my window? Why did he agree to go? Shamed into it by the lawyers? A ploy to make himself look like a good guy? A real want to be able to communicate better with the kids?

I don't know anymore.

Maybe H doesn't even know. I think H is on just as much of a rollercoaster as I am.

I called the kids' counselor and said that H had agreed to go with me, but didn't know what next step to take. Should we see her? Should we go to someone who had never met either of us? She was excited, thinking that he was ready to work on the marriage, and I said I didn't really think that was the case. I told her I'm not sure why he agreed to go. She recommended a couples therapist in her practice, and said that they often work together---he sees the parents, she sees the kids and sometimes the kids and parents jointly. She said she thinks we need to meet with him together so he can get an idea of what we're both wanting to get out of counseling.

So, that's where I am. Sorry for the length.

[tpaschal]

Grace,

Thanks for your thoughts. Sorry that your D's are struggling with this, too. My D14 used to talk about the sitch and her feelings a lot, but now she kind of has the attitude of "why should I talk about it, he doesn't care about us, it doesn't change anything." But she does express anger to him. I want so much for her to be able to have some type of relationship with H, but D14 has the emotional maturity of a...well, 14 year old!, and H has less emotional maturity than that. <sigh>

I did put in a call to the kids' C. Would like for the D14 to start going again but she refuses. But S9 needs to go, so will have to ask H to provide funds for that. Not looking forward to that convo.

I'm tired. Can't this be over already?

[tpaschal]

I am wondering now....

Is counseling really a good thing right now? Will H see it as pursuing if I express to the C that I don't want a divorce? I mean, his attorney just asked for an expedited hearing date (for the D to be final) so he is obviously still pushing hard for the D.

A real 180 for me would be to tell H that I'm ready for the D to be finished. But that would be a lie!

I think I'm confused about DB'ing? I mean, my ultimate goal, obviously, is to save my marriage. I know that to do that I need to detach and be the best ME possible. But while GAL, making changes for myself, etc., I am trying to do those things in ways that will yield the best results possible for my M.

Okay, I know I'm focusing too much on H's motivation and trying to get into his head, and wondering what his reaction will be. But the whole reason I'm DB'ing is to save my M. So shouldn't I be concerned with whether or not something will push him further away?

I am so confused.

[momof2girls]

Hi T,
I saw your post to me on MrsH's thread. I have read your thread and honestly it just about mirrors my situation.

H and I have reconciled and the funny thing is both our L's called it! The day we were at our 4 way meeting the L's left us alone in a room so they could make the next court date and when they got back H's L said "so are you two ready to reconcile?" I almost burst into tears and left the room.

About a week later in the middle of D5's tball game H told me he made a mistake and wanted to work on M.

My bomb was the same time yours was...12/15/06 and I was served in 3/07, court in 6/07 and we have been working on M since. We go to counseling now but during the bomb H wanted no part of it...H didn't care that our children were hurting and I was trying to take care of a house, work full time and take care of our 9 month old!! I was in shock because I thought we had a good marriage! We were on a family vacation when he told me he wasn't happy and was leaving. We came home early from vacation and he left.

He really had a personality change and no matter what I said or did I was always blamed for something. H lost two jobs, went MLC crazy (dyeing hair, tanning, wearing gold jewelry...)

Lived between young OW's house with her kids and his parents when he had our kids.

I felt like I was going to lose everything including my house. This was truly upsetting to me because I didn't want to take my daughters out of their home. Luckily I have a good job as a teacher so the pay is good.

As far as DBing...I just talked to H when I had to, and only about the kids. I did not start arguments and when he did I told him I didn't deserve to be treated this way and when he could talk to me calmly he could call me back.

I never called him and when he called sometimes I would let it ring. I stayed dark as much as possible. When I did have to see him I always looked my best and kept a smile on my face.

As far as counseling goes...go for the kids. there is nothing wrong with you saying you don't want a D...say it matter of factly.

I focused too much on the OW and compared myself to her all the time...don't do that!! Even now my H tells me it was fun and exciting in the beginning and then her true colors came through and he realized what he was missing.

I will try to help you anyway I can...ask me anything! It is very interesting to see things through the eyes of a MLCer now that we can talk about it!!

[tpaschal]

Momof2,

Thanks so much for responding. So your H was only gone for 6 months? Wow. I have to say, I'm really jealous. I really believed that my H would only be gone 6 months, that he needed a break, or time to try on a new personality, etc. But it's been over a year now, and a D is imminent.

When did your H move out? Was it a much younger OW? Has he moved back home now?

In re-reading your post, I see that your H's OW had kids of her own. Do you think that was a factor in their break-up? Why DID they break up?

I think my H is sooooo "hooked in" to the 22 yr. old OW that even though I know they fight and argue and it isn't all the happy paradise he thought it would be, it will be VERY difficult for him to ever break it off with her, even if he wanted to.

H has told me many, many times that he is never coming back, and that OW will MAKE HIM HAPPY for the rest of his life! I know he has talked trash about me to OW, and to a few other friends and coworkers (completely untrue or exaggerating common marital problems---finances, sex, etc.) to the point where he would feel foolish having to take it all back. He is very stubborn, and I think he would probably prefer to stick with OW than to have to admit that he made a HUGE mistake.

OW is very young and immature in a lot of ways, but she is also a VERY good manipulator. From what I can see, she seems to have most of the control in the relationship. Plus, she's got a lot of crap going on in her own life that would make him feel guilty for leaving her---her mom just got remarried and so that might make it difficult for her to move back home, her sister is moving away to grad. school, and her dad just had a major stroke and is very ill in the hospital (though I have no idea what his prognosis is.)

I guess my problem right now is---I am still trying to decide what to do and how to handle things based on what I think H's reaction will be.

I know I shouldn't do that, I know I need to detach and focus on what's best for me and the kids, and leave him out of the equation as much as possible.

But I want be the honey that draws the bee---I want to do things that will draw him back to us, not push him further away! I guess what I need to accept is to do what's right, no matter how he reacts.

Problem is, I don't know what's right. I really, really don't.

And I can't help but be scared. I don't want a divorce.

<sigh>

[momof2girls]

Ok the similarities are scary here! My H was 40 when he left and OW was 27. She had two kids from two different fathers and had never been married.
To be honest I am not sure of the exact reason for the breakup...I know H did not like how she treated her kids and he was feeling guilty about spending more time with her kids than his own.

My H also said it was over, never coming home, blah, blah, blah so I acted as if he wasn't. I did not inform him of anything going on in my life and if he wanted to know about the kids he needed to call and ask. I figured if I didn't call him for everything and anything then he would begin to miss out.

H was also really stubborn...He missed our daughters first birthday party because he didn't want to face my family. His family came...he was the only one who didn't and I made it a point to invite him. After he chose not to come I made the decision that I was no longer going to worry about what he did. this was out of anger and hurt and I figured he would rather be with OW and her kids instead of his own family.

As much as I felt like I was doing the opposite of what I was supposed to be doing to get him back I kept up on the least contact possible.

Don't focus on OW...she is a quick fix and will not be around forever. My imagination ran wild and I had H and OW married. the twist in my situation is the fact that I am H's second M and I have two stepsons that I am very close to. I was more worried about losing my relationship with them. Their mother and my H don't get along...never have since the D. I was worried that my girls would never see their brothers because at the time H didn't care about family at all.

H was in a party phase, always out and having fun, no responsibility didn't help me with the bills...always complained about not having money and then bought a new truck...he drove me so crazy that I really couldn't talk to him.

H moved out the day after the bomb...H moved back home in August 2007. It is very hard work because my trust is limited. He has done major things to let me know he wants this to work. H works with OW and transferred to another building so he would not have to see her everyday...that was one of the stipulations of him coming home.

It is heartbreaking to know that I trusted that he went to work everyday...and that was all it was..work. Now I always wonder but our MC says that is normal and eventually time will help me/us heal.

OW knew H was a married man...not the first she has been involved with. Luckily, the kids never met her. Nor did any of H's family. They were very supportive of me but I was always careful around them because they were still H's family first.

Piecing is just as hard as the bomb...for everybody. My family needs to learn to trust H again and I have to bite my tongue everytime we argue so I don't drag the OW/bomb into it.

When H first came home I worried about what I said and did every minute because I did not want to mess things up. As time has gone by I realize if it is going to work it will and nothing I say will mess it up.

Don't try to win your H back...just be you and make positive changes for you not him. That is what I started to do and no sooner did I face the fact I was getting D'd that H came to me.

I know six months doesn't seem like a long time but it was because I had a baby and was getting no help at all. H fell off the face of the earth

[tpaschal]

Momof2,

Well, heck! I had written a response to your last post, but my computer ate it! Don't have time to rewrite it now, but wanted to let you know how much I appreciate your advice and insights.

Will try to reconstruct it later.