Need Help

[sgctxok]

good job.

[Kim07]

Troubled,,

I apploud you for hanging in there with your W,,she may not see it now but when she gets to a good place in her life she will understand that you had a choice of whether to take the easy way out and leave or stay and fight for her and your M.

The only reason I can say this is that back in the day(few yrs ago) I was like your wife. My H and I built our M on deception not trust b/c it had been so very badly damaged in our childhoods'. I finally understood that I was sabotaging anything good that was happening in my life, including my H, b/c for the longest time I believed that I didn't deserve any good in my life!

Your right, that doesn't excuse the bad behavior thats' been exhibited but WE ALL are not perfect and rightfully so. What a boring world this would be if we had complete harmony.

What I love about my H is that he is finally seeing, with Michele's help, and trying to understand how to rebuild a R with someone whose trust was obliterated at such an early age. He and I are just now, after 18yrs & 7 counselors later, learning about tools we can & do use to stop these cycles from perpetuating. A lot of the time, I had no idea I was being so cruel until someone tape recorded me on a regular basis and then played it back,,I was shocked and disgusted,,I cried. I am currently working on myself & realize that that will be a life long challenge. I am encouraged by Michele recognizing all the work i've done to improve myself (thats' where it starts) and eventually everyone around me,,for the better!

Everything that you have described about your W's behavior,IMHO, is not a disorder, its' about being scared to finally have to let all those yucky feelings come out of Pandoras' box to be dealt with,,she is still punishing herself along w/everyone else in her life,,,IMO shes' also trying to protect her inner core from anymore hurt,,,shes' lost and has no direction,,,sometimes trying to do the right thing but getting discouraged when it doesn't go right ( a perfectionist maybe). Sounds like she has lost faith in everyone around her(not a good place to be).

I can see you love her very much but indeed you need to follow those 12 steps and adhere to the rule of 'NOT enabling bad behavior'~~Easy to say,,,hard to do! Reading your posts, I have no doubt you can do this but it is ultimately your choice,,

IT IS YOUR LIFE,,only you know whether its' worth it to stay. You have tried for a long time it sounds like, I commend you for your stamina and bravery,,now its' time to face some truths:

'We cannot change anyone but ourselves',,the good news is that when other people around you see the positive changes, they want to be part of that too and that may be the catalyst to get things started on a positive note.

NON-PROFESSIONAL-IMO-Advice:
1.)Be careful,,blood is thicker than water.
2.)Get counselor W is comfortable about
3.)IF appropriate, suggest to W's C that your W read
'The Courage to Heal'
4.)Be loving & respecting when setting firm boundries

Just my 2cents worth,,I hope all goes well,,hang in there, it will get better.

Sincerely,
Kim
4.)

[inmyplace]

Sounds like you took control of the situation. Nice job, Troubled.

[inmyplace]

Nice post, Kim. I feel like a bobblehead doll.

IMP

[troubled_husband]

Just an update. This weekend was pretty bad. There was a couple of different things. I think I will probably post them separately. Part of this is a 'public journaling' to vent, but I really do need advice.

On Saturday afternoon we had what she insisted should have been a little thing that I blew out of proportion. Maybe I did, I don't know.

Basically, we needed to clean and trim the guinea pig. It has been a while so the poor animal was quite matted. When doing the trimming, I said I was concerned about trimming it too short because we keep our house pretty cool (about 64) in the winter. She answered that it was set at 64 but really 70. It was a little argument with a lot of history. I decided to check the living room remperature, which bugged her. It was between 64 and 65. I returned and told her that and she responded, I don't believe you, can we just get on with the trimming. I got bent out of shape. I hear the 'I don't believe you' statement a lot. I finally told her to check it herself, which she fought against, telling me I was being silly and childish. Then I did insist. She went over and said it said 68. (it is one of those standard dial thermostats with the dial thermometer, not difficult to read). I argued a little longer but let it go. After we were done, I rechecked (I was wondering if I was that crazy or messed up). And I was right. Even asked my son to check, he said he didn't need to. He knows I was right, that's the way the temperature always is in the downstairs.

So here's my problem. My wife always accuses me of thinking and implying she is stupid. I actually think she is fairly intellegent. But I can't convince her of that. I know my wife can read a thermometer, it doesn't take a rocket scientist (even my learning disabled son can do that). So what is going on here. I made the stand because I have decided to stop letting her insinuate or call me a liar. I got pinged pretty hard on this incident in a R discussion she started last night (she asked what was bothering me and I brought up this issue because it is one of the bigger ones to me). I couldn't get her to generalize the issue other than say, you do it too. To try to get some resolution even on the small part, I asked her to check it again, and she gave the same answer. What gives?


Forgiveness:
is not something earned but given.
is based on the forgiver not the forgiven.
means never holding it against a person again.

[Virtually_Handsome]

Why did you have to make a big deal of it? You did, as soon as you went to check it. Once you did that, the situation was toast. You knew it was an arguement with history, and you pushed it. And then you had to be right. I think you should think about this and generalize it. I think I can give this advise, I have been known to have the same problem! I doubt if the difference makes much difference to guinea pig!

[troubled_husband]

DH,

Thanks for the input.

I little more history is necessary.

In the past, I have overheard conversations where she has told others that she would make up facts, because my memory is not great, to either end or win arguments. I've watched her do it with others. At MC intensive, we discussed this as an issue interferring with me trusting her. Confronted it directly. It was bad enough that for awhile, I thought I was going nuts so I started carrying a little recorder in my pocket so I could review what was said later. I learned a lot about how I was being treated by hearing it 'second hand'. In some ways, this is how we jumped from a troubled marriage to one on the edge of D. Until I did this, I resisted my IC suggestion of what was going on. I guess he noticed some of the signs. At this point, the W's most common response is "you do it too, everyone does it".

Since then, I have occasionally thought she was doing this in less easily verified things where she was either twisting things, making things up, or just plain lying. In last MC session, she committed to changing that. The biggest issue is that unlike with some people, I can only tell when she is doing this when she seems to want me to pick it up. I guess to me, this was a 'verifiable' test. Now I'm left with an even bigger trust gap.

I guess I made an issue of this, because I feel like if I can't trust her on something so simple, how can I trust her with more important stuff? For me, trust is a big issue in the M. Mostly, I don't sense that my W is trustworthy.

[hopeforfuture]

I guess I made an issue of this, because I feel like if I can't trust her on something so simple, how can I trust her with more important stuff? For me, trust is a big issue in the M. Mostly, I don't sense that my W is trustworthy.

TH,
I can understand how little things like this can become big issues, but I think that this sounds more like one of you needing to be correct than a trust thing. You should invest in a digital thermostat and this particular argument would go away. You could also save some money in the long run because they are programmable...

[troubled_husband]

OK, This was a bad place issue to make the stand on. But the trust issue is a big one for me. I hoped to address it on something simple and verifiable. So I can see how that could be viewed as making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Problem: How do I have a relationship with someone I don't trust? I guess some of the people with PA spouses might have good advice on this one.

toubled husband

[Just_Me]

Troubled,

You asked for my perspective, so I'll give it. Maybe I'll shy away from actual "advice". I tend to be kind of blunt, like inmyplace, so hopefully I won't get my head bitten off by other posters.

First off, I admire your dedication. To be honest, I'm not sure I would have that much dedication, although I've certainly never had the opportunity to find out. Seeing how sex-starved you are truly makes me grateful that my complaints about my wife are minor.

I know I read your initial post before and possibly posted. Did I? Regardless, I feel ill equipped to deal with the lack of sex in your marriage since I think it will take much more than suggesting that you mix it up. Your wife will have to see you in a new light and want to have sex more.

Your main problem, and maybe one that will improve your sex life, is the relationship you have with your wife, and it's been building over time. There seems to be quite a bit of co-dependency and in-grained behaviors which you'll have to break. I think you've got a glimpse of that when you stood up to her and she reacted in a different way. If the underlying relationship improves, the loving feelings return (and if push came to shove, do you think you truly feel in love anymore...or just yearn for what love used to be?), and sex returns. I think that the sex life will have to be at the bottom of the list until other areas improve.

I think it's fair to say that your wife isn't willing to change, anything, except maybe seeking out things that she perceives will make her happy, like OM. Remove your wife from the picture for a minute and decide whether you are doing things you enjoy and your life is fulfilling for you. How much have you given up in an effort to please your wife. Can you get some of that back? It's possible to carve time out to rejuvenate yourself (and make yourself happy), while still being a good husband and father...I'd argue a better one, because you are more of a pleasure to be around. You can include your kids and they can benefit. It can't be all about, "how can I make her happy" or "what do I have to do to make her see me in a more favorable light", because you can't make her do anything.

So, I'd suggest (I guess I'm advising and not sharing personal experience) that you find a life you enjoy. I chose to join a volleyball team, take a class, take trips to see old friends or people I met on here, enjoy my kids more, I even enjoy getting out and walking the dogs and looking up at the stars. I called my family more, went out by myself if necessary to plays, movies, or to dinner. Got programs for the computer to help me learn things I wanted to know. Worked on writing in my book (which I'll never finish probably). If you have hobbies, take them back up. If you're religious, join a men's group. Whatever, but take some time for you. And when you feel more rejuvenated, be sure to think about your wife's needs without smothering her. She doesn't want you in her face, but a kind deeds, done matter of factly because you care, may help soften her up some. Do them without asking or expecting it to be noticed, and don't point out what you are doing. Just some thoughts.