I will try this again with a clearer head..help

[Dom R]

I do know I have been talking to God about if I should be the one to file...so is it He that wants me to do this to move on?

If you are so concerned about what God wants you to do:
Did you read the bible passages I referenced?

If you havent, seems like you arent very interested in whether it's God telling you to "do this", or something else.

[Chevelle]

Ok, Dom...I know the passages, but I get jumbled in the Message sometimes...

Matthew 19:8
He saith unto them. Moses because of the hardened hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

So, what exactly does that mean...because my W's heart is hardened, I should put her away..but in the beginning It was not intended to be this way?

Malachi 2:16
For the Lord, the God of Israel, saith that he hateth putting away: for one covereth violence with his garment, saith the Lord of hosts: therefore take heed to your spirit, that ye deal not treacherously.

So, does this mean listen to God that the Holy Spirit will guide me if I dont "deal treacherously"..

I know I should understand this, but something is blocking me from completely sinking in the true meaning here...

Please help..

God Bless

Chevelle

[Dom R]

--- Disclaimer ---:

Lots of people who read this, will disagree on what I write. Probably even 80% of people who read this.
They will say, "that's not what **I** think marriage is about!"

This post is not for them. This post is specifically for Chevelle. And specifically because Chevelle is interested in "God's will for his marriage", and Chevelle is interested in what the Bible has to say about it.

If you dont believe in the bible... please move on.
If you do believe, but disagree on what I have to say about it... please keep your replies relevant, by replying with specific biblical references, on why you disagree.



--------------


Wow... this is unfortunate.. .there are a multitude of translations, and you have about the least readable ones, for your particular case
Looks like you have the straight original king james version.

The first part of the Malachi passage, is more commonly translated as,
"I hate divorce," says the LORD God of Israel,

The matthew 19:8 passage, could be put into more familiar english language as follows:

"God never intended for there to be divorce. But Moses allowed it, because of the hardness of your hearts".

Note that the "hardness of your hearts", refers to the betrayed spouse. Of an unwillingness to forgive so great a betrayal.
Thus, divorce is "allowed". However, it is not commanded, or even recommended, by the bible.
(Note that in matthew 19:7, they ask "why did moses command [divorce]? In 19:8, Jesus corrects them, by replacing "command", with "allow")

If anything, the entire book of Hosea, would seem to be a long encouragement against divorce, even in the case of infidelity.
Yes, his marriage is commonly taken as a parallel for God's faithfulness to "his people", when they turned away from him time and time again, and were "unfaithful" to God.
However, I would say that it is also a literal example of the faithfulness and self-sacrificing love God expects from someone who is married.

Is it a horrible, terrible ordeal, if you are betrayed to that degree? yes. Is it almost unbearable at times? yes.
Are you then supposed to bail out if it hurts too much?
no.
You made a sacred oath, before God, that you would always be loving and faithful to your wife, until death.
Do you remember saying at any time during that vow, ".... so long as my wife keeps her part"?

What makes a marriage vow unique in comparison to various "contracts"... is that it is NOT a "contract". It is NOT a "i'll be nice to you for as long as you are nice to me" business deal. There is no "If you stop being nice/considerate to me, the marriage is over". It is a promise before God, "I will be nice to you [reguardless of whether you are always nice to me]"

It is potentially the most difficult vow a human can ever make: a pledge to be completely unselfish, towards another specific person.


If your wife chooses to leave you... that will be on her head.
If, however, you choose to leave... that will be on your head.

-----

to go back to a more specific concern of yours...

Is that what God is telling me? "Leave this person to complete the trial, and then I will show you what true love is in a woman?"

How about you look at the things you think are "telling you" to divorce, and then examine where they are coming from?
I'm guessing that pretty much all of them are a direct result of actions, or choices, from your wife.

Your wife has free will. By definition, your wife's choices are NOT "from God", but from your wife.

[Chevelle]

Well, Dom, thank u..appreciate the feedback..I do use the KJV only because ones like The Book, are supposed to translate into modern English, supposedly take things out and put in the Word, which God specifically says not to do..

Now, look at this interpretation I got from a website about Christian marriages and divorces...they claim we are taught, not by the Bible, but by man, that these words are not to be taken so LITERALLY...I have my reservations, but see what you think..

The vow, “to death do us part” that we make at our wedding is not found in the Bible. We can’t even keep ourselves by our OWN strength in the love of God, and yet we are going to commit ourselves to love someone else forever? A scriptural vow that would be more appropriate to promise one another on our wedding day would be: “By the GRACE OF GOD, AND THROUGH HIS STRENGTH, I GIVE myself to you all the days of my life, to have and to hold, to love and to cherish....” For in ourselves we are weak.

and this..

Therefore, when separating or divorce comes from God’s heart through man, it’s to save people. That is whether the marriage went bad, or was bad from the beginning. God is doing the separating to have a righteous people, for “righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people

This website is very interesting in the fact they use the words in the Bible, but translate according to the actual Greek or Hebrew meaning, which they say gives a false impression of what God really wants from us concerning M, S and D.
God Bless

Chevelle

[Dom R]

Hi Chevelle,

Psychological studies have shown that, when put under pressure, people are more likely to change their morals to fit their desired behaviour, than to change their behaviour to be more in line with their original morals.

isnt that sad?

These sites that you mention, are usually set up by people who have a set of behaviours they want to keep doing, that are disapproved by the bible. So, they decide to attempt to either rewrite, or trivialize, what the bible says in the area that they are in conflict with.
[or sometimes to be more popular, or even just to make money]

That long paragraph that you wrote, claming "God is doing the separating".... I presume that you got that from the site named "divorcehope.com" and/or the book by the same name. The ENTIRE SITE'S PURPOSE, is to make people feel less guilty about divorce.
Not "to seek God's will". but "to make people feel less guilty about divorce".
And to buy his book.


Do you see the terrible trap in that?

I took a quick look at the site, and it has some really nasty twists and traps that misuse the bible. It would take a lot of writing to debunk all the stuff they are claming.
So instead I shall cut to the heart of the matter.


If you wish to adjust your morals, to your desired behaviour of divorcing your wife, then you may end up doing so, no matter what I or others might say.


If, on the other hand, you are interested in what God has to say to us, through the bible, then i suggest taking a deep look at it yourself, rather than through the biased filters of those websites with their own agendas instead of God's agenda.



Look at the literal translations, and assorted other translations, for yourself. Then judge for yourself. I agree that some of the translations are.. shall we say, way out there. However, there are some that are more helpful, while still being faithful to the original text.
There are various websites that allow you to see multiple translations of the same passage. for example,

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=47&chapter=19

Which offers, among other things, "young's literal translation".
One can assume that there is no bias going on there, but just the "raw" words as close to the original as possible.

-----

Generally speaking, I think that both YLT and the KJV, are clear enough in Jesus's overall purpose, in the first part of matthew chapter 19. However, you dont have to be a greek scholar(i am not one either ), to get the "big picture" reguardless:
Just look at the whole flow of the "conversation" between the pharisees and Jesus.

They first come at him with "is it lawful to divorce for any reason you feel like"?
Jesus's first reply, does not even acknowlege that divorce exists AT ALL! He only talks about how "two become one".

They get what he's saying. They understand what he's saying is "you shouldnt divorce even for MAJOR reasons, let alone for any reason that you feel like". That is why their next question is basically, "well, if we arent supposed to divorce, then why does it exist in the first place?!!"

And Jesus's answer is essentially, "because you people were too hard of heart to forgive in all cases. So Moses got sick of your complaints and said you could divorce, if and only if in the extreme case of infidelity.".

[Dom R]

PS: another great on-line biblical reference, that actually shows you a whole bunch of translations, for a single verse, all on one page! (Plus commentaries at the bottom)


eg:


http://bible.cc/matthew/19-8.htm

[Chevelle]

Thank you for the links..very helpful, Dom.

I guess the question that looms on my mind..is that she wants this, and no matter what I do, she still feel this is the right thing to do.

Now, yes she commited adultery, so does that mean I can, as a Christian husband divorce her, even though it is not my call. Surely, God doesn't want me in a loveless marriage. For us to walk with God, we have to live according to His will..so wouldn't that mean that being in a marriage with an ungodly spouse who doesnt want in it be NOT in God's best interest for our lives on this earth?

I have walked with God for a long time (since I was a child, was saved at 14, now 33, but only for the past two years have I renewed my faith stronger than ever) and I have felt that God would answer our prayers in His own way to help us, even if it didnt work the way we planned..."for the greater good" as they say.

I know God does not want this to happen, but if W is blind to the idea that we could try to work on M, why would I stand for, possibly the rest of my life, waiting for something that could never happen?

I guess that is my concern..I would like to reconcile, but I can't fight someone that walks away..I feel maybe God has a different plan in place for me that I maybe need to follow..one that doesn't include W.

God Bless

Chevelle

[Dom R]

Thank you for the links..very helpful, Dom.

I guess the question that looms on my mind..is that she wants this, and no matter what I do, she still feel this is the right thing to do.

What does what she wants to do, have anything with you doing "the right thing", as best you are able?
She controls her. You control you.

Surely, God doesn't want me in a loveless marriage. For us to walk with God, we have to live according to His will..

"surely"? where do you get this "surely"?
where does it say, "you will know God's will,by what makes you happy" ????

Isnt it the other way around?
Arent we supposed to derive happiness, from following God's will?

There are certainly times and places, where following God's will, does make us directly happy at the selfish level.

But sometimes, it is the opposite. Sometimes, what would "make us happy", goes directly against God's will in more obvious ways.
Having an affair. Stealing. Murdering an 'enemy'.


"surely" therefore, we cannot judge God's will for us, solely by "what makes us happy" ?

so wouldn't that mean that being in a marriage with an ungodly spouse who doesnt want in it be NOT in God's best interest for our lives on this earth?

It sounds to me, like you are mispelling "Chevelle's interest", as "God's interest", friend.

I know God does not want this to happen, but if W is blind to the idea that we could try to work on M, why would I stand for, possibly the rest of my life, waiting for something that could never happen?

why?
may i suggest, "if and only if you believe it is God's will for you to do so".

I guess that is my concern..I would like to reconcile, but I can't fight someone that walks away..I feel maybe God has a different plan in place for me that I maybe need to follow..one that doesn't include W.

maybe God does want you to do something different than what you are doing now.
Maybe He just wants you to stop "fighting" your wife. To "be still".

you cant "fight" your wife back to you. I think that you can only do that, by choosing love. Love, in the 1st Corinthians 13 sense.
Even then, there is no guarantee she will return. But I think that there then is a guarantee that you are doing what is pleasing in the eyes of God.


Good night, and may God bless you, with renewed love.

[Dom R]

A few more thoughts, from early morning brain power

so wouldn't that mean that being in a marriage with an ungodly spouse who doesnt want in it be NOT in God's best interest for our lives on this earth?

Paul writes, that it is best not to marry an "ungodly spouse" in the first place. However, once you are married... you are married!. God prefers us not to make poor choices, but if we do.. he then expects us to be mature adults, and live up to the consequences and responsabilities resulting from them.

King David had one of the worst possible starts to a marriage. He committed adultery with Bathsheba. then MURDERED her husband.
Then he marries her?!?!

It is difficult to imagine a more unGodly union. And as far as the wife goes; whether or not she wanted her husband killed, she was clearly a willing party to the adultery.

Did God tell David, "You must divorce this unGodly woman,and end this unholy marriage" ? Did he say "you made a poor choice", or "it doesnt count"?
No. Because David was married, and that is that. They were "joined together as one", before and with God., and even God will not choose to undo that, once it is done.
"God hates divorce".

Bad choices and reasons for getting into it aside, a marriage is a marriage. David made the commitment; God expected him to then stick to it.
Even beyond just "sticking to it"; God honored that marriage, by making David and Bathsheba's child (second child, born WITHIN the marriage) Solomon, king of Israel, amoung many other things.

[Chevelle]

Ok, Dom..points taken and heard, now for more follow up..

My thing right now is, she wants the D, so I can give her the D without fighting her..even if I feel it isnt right. That may be my interests, yes, but with God hating divorce, but also not messing with free will, saved or unsaved, would it not be safe to say that maybe W will D me, God will set in motion a plan for me that will work for me and Him.

I understand one of our goals is to glorify God, now she wants the D, since it is what she wants (God not messing with free will), and I understand after a two year S with no resolve, she doesnt plan on coming back anytime soon..and I have stood for my M and might even after D (God hates divorce, so we as WAS, should stand for our M). But this seems counterproductive.

In other words, Dom...I would like to stand..I feel God has worked many miracles in my life with this, but now Im unsure if this is the right thing....part of me even thinks to let her have the D, for me to PMA and GAL better. Doesnt mean I have to date or whatnot..Just "be still"..

Now, the other unsure thing is, God hates divorce..ok. Now if the D happens anyway because of Ws free will, Im sure God realizes I have done all that could be based on that. So, for me to let her have D, God can work on me, and perform miracles with me that will glorify Him, and let me know that it was ok to let the D happen..

I hope I didnt confuse you, Dom...I just dont understand sometimes how if God hates divorce...even if it happens, how does God view us then..as sinning if we have other Rs and a potential new W? Even if we did all we could to save the M?

God Bless

Chevelle