KAW - I think that Andy and Lee have some very good points. This is something that W must come to grips with on her own. Let her know that you'll be there for D and that you're not going anywhere but that you understand her need to resolve this with minimal input from you.
Sometimes you need to release the ones you love so that they can try to fly on their own - to discover themselves. It's essential when they're your children. Looks like it is also essential for your W.
Ahh...my friend. I have little more to add than what's already been said. Your W IS "vacillating." She finds comfort in you, yet thinks she wants (or is missing) something else too. I'm so very sorry... This is a journey she has to take alone...
Quoting ANS: Listen to her KAW. She’s having major self esteem issues. One of the most prominent symptoms of depression, which she readily admits she’s experiencing, is low self esteem. She simply wants to be her own person. She sees her reliance on you as a weakness that she has to fight. Normally, your support of her would be an asset. And it is, sometimes. But sadly, the fact that it’s an asset conflicts with her perception of her own weakness. If you think you’re confused, imagine how she feels!
Keep these wise words in mind, KAW.
She may see some of the times that you're caring "too" well for her as an insult, like maybe you think that she's incapable of taking care of herself. She probably just needs to know that you care "about" her.
Care "for" yourself, my friend. If you don't, you're liable to kept caught-up into your own dose of depression, which won't do either of you any good.
To keep it on a DB level, what was it that you did the other night that seemed to work?
JJ
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Wow..KAW...so much great support...I don't have anything to add..except that I am thinking of you and from your long history of patience and kindness to your w, I am sure you will do what is needed ...but also take care of you. We can only do so much for our s..they have to help themselves.
Well, I'm still not sure how I can help, but I think you were asking about the respect thing... that was the hardest for me to understand myself. You have to remember back to when you were dating. Back when you realized that she had a life, and you hoped to be a part of it. See, what I realize is that she STILL has a life, and I am priviledged to be a part of it. I have no entitlements here, I am given the priviledge, by her, of being a part of her life, just like when we were dating.
I've noticed lately among "happily married couples" how they say things like "I must get home, or spouse will kill me". Actually, that kind of statement is pure macho bullshit. The truth is that they respect their spouses wishes that they come home, and they feel they must express something that shows their independence to their friends. But ultimately, they respect their spouse's wish that they come home at a reasonable time. RESPECT. An arrangement that works.
So, what I've learned from this kind of observation is that I must respect W's space... I must respect her decisions. Mostly, I must respect her right to make those decisions, whether I agree with those decisions or not. There are some things that are simply none of my business.
Now, you might think that because you are married to someone that the things they do ARE your business. And I support that assumption. But, if your spouse doesn't respect that assumption, you really only have 2 choices.... to respect your spouse's assumption, or to insist they respect yours. If you choose to insist, that's control. If you delude yourself into thinking you can control your spouse, you will set yourself up for much unhappiness. If you accept that you can only control yourself, you will understand that regardless of how your Spouse treats you, you have chosen to remain married. YOu are in control of your situation.
In my situation, I chose to stay married. I chose to leave her alone. I chose to respect her privacy even when she chose to disrespect all that there was about our marriage. Maybe I was a doormat, but I maintained my self respect, I stood for what I believed. I lived my life, I respected my vows, I held my family together.
I'm a handy guy. I fix things. I figure things out, I handle finances very well. Throughout our marriage, W has often referred to me as "My Hero" for the little things I do that make her life easier. I've not heard that proclation for years, since OM #1 appeared on the scene in late 2000. Today, I was proclaimed by W to be "My Hero" for the first time in years for some silly little thing I did. I wept, I asked for a hug and got it, and I rejoiced. I got this because I never stopped believing that it could happen, and I learned how important it was to respect my W, no matter what.
What she does is none of my business, truly. Unless she decides to include me.... to respect me by including me in her life. I find that by not insisting that she show her respect by including me that she does just that. So, by respecting her space, I'm included in it. But when I didn't respect her space, I was rejected. I came frightenly close to being permantly ejected.
This is all about respect. Love is all about respect. Marriage is a contract about respect.
I'm taked aback by the amount to support here ... you guys are great!
Quoting lodtlove: I would suggest you stop reading her journal as it is not productive for you...
In one of my earlier threads, I mentioned why I look at her journal when it is left out in the open. I do interpret it as a cry for help. She usually journals when she is deeply troubled. It started about eight years ago when I first snooped. She had left it on the bed. When I read it, she had laid out a plan to commit sucide and just was waiting for the right moment. She never talked to me about it, was acting "as-if" all was well, but wrote she was tired of leading the false life and wanted to end it all. I quickly took action and had her admitted in a hospital for two weeks, where they worked on getting her the proper medication and consultations. All was well then until my depression set in. After about a year with living with this but not confronting it, it started to affect her and drag her down again. She started leaving her journal out again last spring when she was in the midst of A and wanted out of M. I believe as a way to persuade me into wanting a D, but this time I never led on that I had read it. ... but reading it once I believe saved her life. After that, its hard to ignore when that book sits out in the open by the bed.
LL, the panic attacks started in the fall of 2001. In Nov. is when she dropped the bomb and told me about EA with OM. Coincidence? It also coincides with when her medication was switch to generic brands. She back on the original medication and increased dosages, but she still has the attacks fairly regularly. She can go 2-3 weeks between attacks or can go 3-4 days in a row of panic attacks. Usually they last 20-30 minutes and alot of them are caused by anxiety over worrying if one will happen again - a self-fulfilling prophecy. Most of the time, it does take me embracing her, holding me in her arm to calm her down in order for the attacks to cease.
Which leads into her dependance. Yes she sees her depression as a weakness. A weakness because she can't over come it herself. That others (doctors, therapists, friends, family and at one time me) are telling her what she has to do to get better. She's tired of people telling her what to do, so now she doesn't want to see anymore doctors. she stopped seeing her recent C after two sessions because she didn't like what she said.
Lotsa of suggestions about backing off. Last year, I learned to back off alot and still do. I no longer say anything about what she should do, pretaining to her medical conditions or any other aspect of her life now. Occasionally, I'll offer a recommendation and I stress that's all it is ... she can take it or leave it. Hell, if I feel the need to butt in with advise about somethin', I can just come here and do it! I no longer try to manage her medication. I use to remind her of things she needed to do in the course of the day or calls she would need to make, bills she needed to pay, etc... No more. I do truly butt out. When I see credit card statements with late fees, I literally bite my tongue and don't say anything, even tho it does bug the hell out me to waste money like that ... but I do let her handle her affairs now! (Please no jokes here!) Despite this, she still doesn't believe and I'm still trying to disperse that perception. The most recent being her wanting a Jeep and thinking I won't let her have one! Not true. I don't care what she wants to drive so long as we can pay for it!
Quoting Andy: She simply wants to be her own person.
... and she has the right to be and been trying to get message thru to her, but then again "no man is an island" and on occasion do seek some one else to lean on and that should be OK, too. Her preceptions seem to swing to extremes (neither of which is healthy) instead of finding middle ground.
... but you are right, I think too much, trying to search for the solution(s) that will fix this, and I've got caught up in it. Why? Because of something she said one year ago, when she approach me about wanting to work on us again. She said, she got lost and asked me to promise to keep her from getting lost again. I naively said I would and now have been trying to live up to my promise and in vain. I reminded her of this promise a few weeks ago, hoping it would help draw her back. It had no effect.
Since this is turning out to be another longwinded post, I want to conclude with answering my question yesterday about what I was wondering I would come home to last night.
After getting home an hour late due being at the bank to extend a line of credit, I came home to my W napping. I accidently woke her up. She warmed up my dinner and stayed in the dining room with me as I ate. She turned into a perky little chatterbox for the entire evening relating every little detail about her day. I intently listened and validated. Then came bedtime. Another entire night of cuddling right up to the morning alarm. I think I can be happy just having that every nite!
Anyway, she went into the shower and I did it again! (I hadn't read any of your posts til I came in to work this morning) She wrote, she feels she has to say goodbye to OM, but each time she talks to him, her feeling for him get in the way. She went on with ... "I'm married to a wonderful, loving, caring man and all I can think about is cheating on him! I must be CRAZY!"
As strange as it may sound but I feel real good right now...
You mentioned your own depression, KAW, so you know how crazy your thoughts can be.
Wanna know why I think you feel good right now? I think it's because what you read in her journal shows that she has enough of a grasp on reality to recognize what's real and what isn't.
When I went through my depression, I sometimes had an hard time distinguishing between the "crazy" thoughts and the real ones. One thing that kept me going was remembering my W's own burnout. I remembered her telling me, "I don't wanna go crazy!"
I didn't have a clue what she was talking about until I experienced my own depression. Scared the krap outa me, but the realization that she came out of the tunnel helped me carry on.
Quote: Anyway, she went into the shower and I did it again! (I hadn't read any of your posts til I came in to work this morning) She wrote, she feels she has to say goodbye to OM, but each time she talks to him, her feeling for him get in the way. She went on with ... "I'm married to a wonderful, loving, caring man and all I can think about is cheating on him! I must be CRAZY!"
Sounds like maybe your W is coming to her own conclusions? You know, when it comes down to it, everything is about changing ourselves to better our situations. We come to this conclusion for ourselves (thanks to DR), but have to wait for our Ses to do the same. And our backing off makes it easier for them to have this self-examination.
I always talk about this process... Well, I believe self-examination lies at the the crux of it. When it really kicks in is when changes can be made. The fact that she's even questioning what she's thinking is opportunity for change. I hope that this time, the momentum of her thoughts will take her in the right direction.
KAW, IM(very)HO, for her it's the depression. Seems she feels trapped with the depression and, as a result, her perceived dependence upon you for support. I believe if she can come to the conclusion that she needs to fight the depression, then she will rid herself of this self-doubt about your R.
So, how to get her to evaluate this???
Have you guys ever talked about what it took for you to deal with her A, what things you read, where you got your inspiration, and such? I know you have to walk the dependence tightrope, but I was just wondering if you could perhaps offer some VERY subtle guidance here. Perhaps take the perspective of fighting to rid her of her depression rather than fighting for your R? I know, the tightrope...
You are awesome, just want to say that and say hi and let you know I'm listening in.
You know how I feel about snooping -- not proud of it, but if I hadn't I would still be in the dark. And more miserable -- cuz of my tendency to believe what H sez. With MLC grime, you daren't trust their words or crazy actions.
Just letting you know I know what you're going through.
KAW...I am happy that you are feeling better...it must feel like heaven to have read those words your w wrote(even if it is snooping!!!) I don'y know much about depresssion, except my sister has dealt with it for several years, and she has talked about the attacks as feeling like wanting to jump out a window. Your wife has some grasp of what she is doing, yet at times she sounds like she's "crazy".
I no longer try to manage her medication. I use to remind her of things she needed to do in the course of the day or calls she would need to make, bills she needed to pay, etc... No more. I do truly butt out. When I see credit card statements with late fees, I literally bite my tongue and don't say anything, even tho it does bug the hell out me to waste money like that ... but I do let her handle her affairs now! (Please no jokes here!) 
Despite this, she still doesn't believe and I'm still trying to disperse that perception. The most recent being her wanting a Jeep and thinking I won't let her have one! Not true. I don't care what she wants to drive so long as we can pay for it!
for the entire evening relating every little detail about her day. I intently listened and validated. Then came bedtime. Another entire night of cuddling right up to the morning alarm. I think I can be happy just having that every nite!