Hey all. Geez...where to get off this rollercoaster? We continued our R talk this morning... But I want to respond to you guys before getting into that.
Quoting Sage:My suggestion? Don't shut up completely...keep thanking her for A, B and C. Just don't mention D right now (really).
Yup. That's what I plan on doing. Guess I'm not validating enough...or not doing it right.
Quoting LL:try not to dwell too much on the words w has used with her friend...sit and think back a while jethro...have the same questions and doubts entered your mind?
I am trying to do that, LL. And I understand her having doubts because I certainly have them... It's the combination of lying, acting distant, and accidentally seeing OM (more than once) that does not sit well with me.
Quoting SBH-SAM:I did realize this as my 2nd A began to dwindle, and I've always believed that if you truly love someone when you get married (which SBH&I DEFINITELY did) you can work through anything.
Ohhh...SAM, she'd say something like she's always felt very close to me as a good friend and not REALLY loved me like a lover should. Thing is, she has intimacy issues, which I believe create this block in her towards me (and anyone else for that matter)...and she kind of realizes this...thankfully.
Quoting jim_van:This is tough, you got some insight to her thinking right now. Maybe it would be best to take that and adjust how you're approaching things?
I agree wholeheartedly. I will use this information to my advantage.
So, like I mentioned, this morning we had further R discussions. She brought it up because I wasn't going to go there. Thankfully, it ended up being productive. I went into my "DB zone" where I take myself when things start getting hairy. It's a bit ethereal. In any case, she said that yes, she has been having a hard time lately, and like any M, there are ups and downs. And yes, she still wonders if I'm the one. But she also thinks that it's a block on her part...some kind of defensive mechanism that prevents intimacy. She said that when things are really good, she kind of sabotages them. Additionally, she said it's hard for her to open up to me because of how I used to be... She also assured me that she would NEVER see OM again and is fully committed to our R (the lying still gets to me, however). I did my best to validate all of the things I noticed that she's changed, and how differently she is acting these days.
She went on to suggest that we get away for a long weekend or something...just the two of us. This was a nice gesture. Her point was we just need some down-time together to refresh ourselves.
But, this damn lying is really bothering me. I suppose, if I think about it, she is doing it because she doesn't want to open wounds. She's also probably afraid of how I'll react. Maybe she's protecting me, as well as herself. I don't know...I just want her to come clean.
I saw KAW had read his W's journal and found out she wanted to be Mrs. OM... so, I mean to say, it could be much worse.
I know you don't want her lying to you. Noone wants to be lied to.
How safe is she to tell the truth? She's trying and doesn't want to mess things up. She doesn't want to tell you she saw OM cuz she doesn't want you to think that's more significant than it is. If she's like me, she's definitely trying to turn her own heart around.
Now, say you say something about your snooping... three things could happen
You could tell W you know she saw OM and that she lied and that you see it as a direct offense, and you can tell her you wont take it and that she needs to leave if she doesn't want to do her part in at least being honest with you.
W could get scared because she doesn't really want to leave you and apologize and swear she wont do it again, in which case, the process of turning her heart around will be easier. It will still have to take it's course, but it will be easier.
or
W could do what the folks above said... use it as fuel to justify seeking D. Like, "oh, I can't even get any privacy or respect around here, so it's HIS fault I'm leaving."
or
some combination of the two. prolonging Limbo Land.
Thing is, W's decision to stay with you and CHOOSE to love you is hers and hers alone. If you wish her to make that choice you need to be everything you'd be if you two were happy together. And unfortunately, the lion's share rests with you because you're the one DB'ing.
You should tell her you have her password, at least. That's so uncool. I can see looking in a journal if it's left out, but purposefully reading something she believes is private is just plain wrong, and you should admit your own wrongdoings too, maybe not directly, maybe just mention the importance of changing passwords often enough. YOU have to be honest too... then maybe you'll both agree that you are both failable.
Sometimes I say something I'm thinking and having said it takes the power out of it and it becomes untrue. Maybe your W is just testing out theories on her friend. Yes, she is lying to you. But you are lying to her too by reading her private messages and fishing for confessions. So don't be thinking you all that :P, k?????
(no intention of harshness... sometimes i'm harsh, i read that in one of H's "fill in the blanks" books
Quote: You should tell her you have her password, at least. That's so uncool. I can see looking in a journal if it's left out, but purposefully reading something she believes is private is just plain wrong, and you should admit your own wrongdoings too, maybe not directly, maybe just mention the importance of changing passwords often enough. YOU have to be honest too... then maybe you'll both agree that you are both failable.
Journal or e-mail, it's wrong, Char; however, it is significantly more deceitful to have an A. Not sure that it would help things if I told her I've snooped a couple of times. I am a very honest person and feel quite guilty about it, but it could backfire... I would do it if I thought it would help things...
Quote: Journal or e-mail, it's wrong, Char; however, it is significantly more deceitful to have an A.
tsk, tsk....are you going to justify all your bad actions according to whether or not they are wronger than her having had an a???
not trying to be mean..I know I've used the same silly manner of justification for my indiscretions but it's not very productive is it???
Quote: I am a very honest person and feel quite guilty about it, but it could backfire... I would do it if I thought it would help things...
maybe what would help things would be to just stop snooping. ya ya I know I've snooped too...and most of the time when I do find something I shout it right out to h..not very productive...
so she "saw" og..perhaps you are right in your assumptions about it just being his driving by and her catching a glance at him..is that really something she should have to come home and tell you?? oh honey btw I saw og today driving down the street...how much better would that have made you feel??
Not much time, but wanted to suggest that you maybe take what you found out, and just kinda store it in the back of your head somewhere, and try not to focus on it right now. Keep it in mind, but don't take any action on it, and just keep your eyes open. And your arms, too.
It seems like these might be just some "dying quivers" that are happening on the part of that R. Seems to be pretty typical, and just that information you have in itself doesn't mean that your efforts are running off course.
It's tough, I know. Been there, done that. There were times when I had too much information, and would blow it when I "reacted" to it.
Stick with your goals, and really play the "distancer/persuer" role wisely now. Do both, but each for short periods of time.
Go out and do something for yourself today, and maybe just keep this under your hat for awhile. Unless you think that confronting her on this right now would do more good than harm, would take you closer to your goals, it might be best to "do nothing".
Try to stay out of her "feelings", 'cuz those may come and go. Focus on actions.
Luv ya man! Hang in there!
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
Quoting LL:tsk, tsk....are you going to justify all your bad actions according to whether or not they are wronger than her having had an a???
I suppose that did sound a bit defensive, didn't it? My apologies to Char...and thanks for the reality check. It isn't right no matter what. I will STOP snooping.
Quoting JJ:It seems like these might be just some "dying quivers" that are happening on the part of that R.
Not sure I understand, JJ. You think that she's still harboring feelings and keeping those secret?
Quoting JJ:Unless you think that confronting her on this right now would do more good than harm, would take you closer to your goals, it might be best to "do nothing".
Well, I'd kind of like to bring it out in the open, but it would be for selfish reasons...like relieving my conscience. Char really struck a chord here... This is a tough one. In a way, we're both lying, but...ahhh...I don't know... Perhaps keeping it under my hat for now is the right thing to do, but the lies...the lies...
Not sure I understand, JJ. You think that she's still harboring feelings and keeping those secret?
I hate to use the word "secret" in this case, maybe more of just keeping them away from you. You may think of this as being deceitful and lying, but take a minute to do a 180 on your thinking of it, and look at it as a way for her to "protect" your relationship from more harm. How would you act, and feel, then? From there, you might be able to find your balance.
As for harboring feelings, I almost hate to say this, but yes. As much as we would like it to be different, there is no "on/off" switch when it comes to feelings for another person, especially for women. Everytime she sees him, whether or not she actually talks to him, it's going to bring up some kind of feeling. This doesn't mean she's going to act on those feelings.
About the best you can do to combat this is to do what you can to keep the balance of the scale tipped in your direction. Keep making yourself the most attractive option.
Also, keep in mind that Michele warns against a person "always" expressing their feelings. Especially to their partner. Although ideally it sounds great to share everything with your partner, the reality of this is different. Feelings are just feelings. They can come and go, in a matter of minutes. Sometimes, sharing EVERYTHING that you're feeling with your partner may do more harm then good.
That's one nice thing about this board is that we can vent and share feelings here. Your wife doesn't have this outlet. If you really want her to share it all with you, tell you everything, you would have to make it totally safe for her to do so. No "demands", and no reactions whatsoever to whatever she says to you. How do you react to any conversations surrounding this subject now? How could you change that? Are you sure you really want to do a total 180 on this, and would be able to keep any kind of respect for her, any hope? Where would the boundaries on these "listening sessions" lie? Are you ready to apply for sainthood?
I guess in summary, her "lies" MAY be born out of confusion, insecurities, and fears. Not with the intention of doing you harm. If you were to look at is this way, what could you be doing differently?
JJ
Read about Divorce Busting® Telephone Coaching here!
Quoting JJ:I guess in summary, her "lies" MAY be born out of confusion, insecurities, and fears. Not with the intention of doing you harm. If you were to look at is this way, what could you be doing differently?
Well, to protect her feelings and not add any more stress to the situation, perhaps it's better to say nothing... I just can't help but think she's a bit confused about our conversation last night... It's not easy for me to walk that tightrope of knowing and telling.
Your current sitch is where I was 1 year ago. I did what you are doing and my W did what your W is. She cares about you and doesn't want to hurt you with details. Be thankful of this. I also thought that I NEEDED to know everything. You really don't.
Your R seems to be moving forward fairly well. The person most likely to screw it up is you. So don't. Appreciate what is going well and don't let the highs get too high or the lows get too low. Please, please, please don't snoop. All it did was kill my PMA most times I did it and for no good reason. It made me suspicious again and no matter how hard I tried to hide it, it showed in my interactions with her. Here is the line that got me over the hump. "If you trust too much you may be deceived, but if you trust too little you will be TORMENTED." It is actually quite easy, quit tormenting yourself.
This doesn't guarantee that she won't betray you again but nothing does. This guarantees you the best chance of a healthy R and you feeling good a lot faster than the path that you are on. I say this from experience. I extended my "ICU" visit on this board by not listening to the "elders" (Zebra,Kaw,Andy). The hardest part was caving in to my insecurities by snooping or just wondering if she was being honest with me. Come here when those insecurities hit instead of acting on them.
I think your R is heading in a very positive direction but it will continue to be a struggle. I think you are closer to your goals than you do.
Quoting jethro: Char really struck a chord here...
jethro
didn't know I am a guitar player did you?
no seriously...
Marriage vows go something like cherish and obey, forsaking all others...
Cherish comes first (eeghad, charcoal, listen to yourself). But I don't think these vows are intended to have rank, meaning, i don't think one has precedence over the other... I know, easy for me to say, but... H can say "you forsook me!!!" and I can come right back with "you didn't cherish me!!!" The thing I need to do is forget about all that past stuff and cherish H today, and I do, I just forget to sometimes when I'm mad.
I think JJ said some really good stuff. Focusing on today, not sharing all your feelings with your spouse. I don't know your W, but since she is there, and is trying to "do" whatever she can to "get right", then she absolutely must be trying to work out whatever feelings pertaining to om. If you want her to love you, you have to let her make that choice all by herself. Otherwise, it'll be 1/2 @$$ed and based on fear rather than open and actually "hers".
"After the Affair" tells the straying spouse that it could take a long, long time to get over the OP. To just be still with it and let it pass.
more of just my opinion which apparently flows like wine today
