Hmmm...interesting responses on the philosophical discussion. Thanks everyone. Seems everyone has their own spin on what "in love" means. As though I should be suprised...
So...I want to take this touching/sex thing a step further...
Quoting Char:first of all, jethro, I definitely KNOW how W feels when you want sex. she thinks... oh, it's just about sex, it's not about ME or LOVE, or ME, or ME... it's all about HIM... honestly? Withholding what your spouse really needs is more than cruel.
Well, not sure how my posts come across in terms of how my W "touches" me or how much we have sex, so I'm going to be a little more clear to illicit opinions from you guys on what "normal" relations may be.
Sex has always been a point of contention with my W and I. In fact, she wanted me to ask you guys about this to see what you say. I've always had a strong sex drive and I guess you could say my W's has been more normal (whatever that means). I would be happy with every other day. But, we ususally end up having sex twice a week. Now, every great once in a while she goes through periods of time where she wants to have sex more often, and this is great. When she was having her A, we were having sex more often (ugh ). In fact, I think that was the only thing getting me by, as I was pretty much having NO other affection from her at all. Right after I found out about her A (for a few weeks), we were doing it at least once a day. Now that things have settled down a bit, it's back to the twice a week, and even now she seems to get annoyed when I "push" for that.
This bothers me because I like to be close to her in this way, my LL is touch, I think she's gorgeous, etc. It's not just "getting off," it's about having strong feelings for my W, feeling close to her emotionally and physically. Are we "normal" here? Am I asking too much? Should I back off? The rejection is really getting to me...as it has always gotten to me... You know, makes me feel unwanted... Naturally, she says it's not because I'm not attractive, that she's not abnormal, and that most women are fine with once/week. In her mind, our relations are normal. But I'm still not satisfied. (I know...me...me...me...)
I know some of you guys would feel lucky to have it twice a week, but let's face it, what we're going through isn't the norm, and I want to base my assessment on the norm.
are there ways that you can touch your w or have you touch her that are not sex??
I used to focus too much on the actual sexual contact...when that wasn't around I'd be annoyed...I didn't stop to appreciate that ole footbal pat on the butt my h so often gave me that annoyed the crap outa me...now I like it..I relate it to when other men would drape their arms around their w and give them a hug...
in trying to focus on the other means of touch I'm finding that I AM infact getting what I want..(ok I want some of it to be sexual too)
do you cuddle when you sleep? do you hug w? is she receptive? does w hug you? are you receptive? do you greet w with a kiss? is she receptive? does w greet you with a kiss? are you receptive? do you touch w in non-sexual ways each day? is she receptive? does w touch you in non-sexual ways each day? are you receptive?
there's a whole lot more to the whole physical contact love language than just sex...if you focus on what you are getting you may find that you are getting what you need.
Maybe if you alter your focus from the act of sex to a greater bond of physical intimacy. My W's biggest complaint other than I always wanting sex was that we couldn't touch without it always leading to sex.
So I concentrated more on the hand-holding, the embraces, the back rubs, the caresses, the massages, the gentle squeezes, the cuddles, etc... I started to find this just as desirable ... and when it comes time when she is ready, the sex is usually more intense.
Maybe one way that might help you look at it is ... work all the angles above (which will take days or even a week) as a way to build up to the physical act. The result is while you may not gain any more frequency, the way in which you are being physical in between may be more enjoyable to you both instead of the building of resentment.
It also opens the door to more creative ways to be together which can add more fun and pleasure too. For instance, we would never take showers together, now we do. Once or twice a week during an evening, I started shaving my W's legs for her, sometimes including an upper trimming, which sometime can lead to ... well I think you can figure that out.
OK, that's probably more info that you need to know, but I think you can get the point...
I have heard the same things from my W saying that once a week is normal for a married couple. I think that is BS if one of you is feeling rejected and unloved there has to be something else. I also have a love language which is touch I love hold hands and hug and kiss and all that stuff. For me Making love is the topping on the cake. It is the thing that makes me feel like she really loves me that I am worth being with. That is how I feel emotionally attached to her.
What if your W was willing 3 times a week would that help you feel more loved. What exactly do you need to feel loved. Maybe talk to your W and say this What 4 things really make you feel loved by me. Then You can tell her the 4 most important things to you. Ask her if you are meeting her 4 needs wether she would be more willing to meet yours. If she says yes start doing what she needs. Hopefully she is openminded enough to try.
for me, my libido cycles on a monthly basis, and i've read this is pretty common too.
right after mens.. (eek, we are getting personal aren't we?) anyway, right after that, once, twice, three times a day is good for about 4-5 days...
then, honestly, I'm good for the month pretty much... unless provoked
'course H isn't (good for the month) and doesn't know how to "provoke" so I "give"...
a pattern that's happened here is that for years... even before the kids... H would persue all the time. everyday, with nearly every touch there was a sexual message being conveyed.
It became a REAL turn off! I mean, what is H??? For Pete's Sake! There were times when ll's little pat on the @$$ would send me through the roof! Of course I said things about it, but H never ever ever seemed to get the point...
I MEAN COME ON!!!
So, this is where the rejection started. I felt like an object because all my needs for friendship and help around the house we're totally ignored while H kept poking and grabbing...
I was like, "ick, stop!". That stinks doesn't it? So, I think, had H met more of my needs more of the time, maybe this cycle wouldn't have gotten set up. And, when H was drinking, my sex drive literally DIED. I didn't even fantasize or anything... nothing... now for me? Very unusual. :\
Now, okay, everybody knows what's up now, right? So, now the trick is in breaking the cycle and the old habits that make me reject ~ which HAS happened. Now, i think we just need to build up the touchy feel good sexless moments to get to a point where we're real friends again...
Oh yeah, and one other thing... H doesn't initiate anymore. I've slapped him down so many times now that he's afraid to. And well... passion??? We had a little of that early in the R, but it got out of hand too quickly, we became too familiar too quickly and I think we're paying for that even now.
What I would like, I think, is for H to try is this... if he needs it, to give me that look and say "I need you." I told H we should start saying "need" more often. Like, "honey, I need you to turn on the air conditioner" or "honey, I need you soon, k?" I mean, I think most women respond to need more than want. If we know we're meeting a need, we feel good about ourselves and we know our H's NEED us (in that way). If we get to a point where it's a "want", then, I'm reminded of my step dad saying "how's it feel to want???... tough SH%T". Cause "Everybody Wants Some"... but only your H or your W should NEED you... you know?
Thanks... it's nice to ramble... helps the discovery process... I must go tell H.
Ahh...I want to thank everyone for their responses, but I have just learned that I have a bigger fish to fry...much to my disappointment.
So...I was snooping on my W's e-mail tonight. Yes, I've done it a couple of times. No, I'm not proud of it. Thing is, guess what I saw? Well, she was writing her divorcee friend (who knows about her A) and told her that she saw OM again last night. Now, this was a coincidence...not on purpose. She was just running and the jerk happened to be driving by in his flippin truck or something. I'm not even sure that they talked, as her e-mail didn't say anything about that...
When I first found out about her A, I told her that I expect her to never see OM again, and if she did by happenstance, then she needs to tell me. Well, in my subtlest way I tried to bring certain things up that would give her the opportunity to admit to these "encounters." She flatly denied seeing him. I even brought up the "accidental" thing and she still denied it. It was all I could do not to say anything.
We ended up having quite the R talk. My concerns about her seeing OM, my concerns about her not telling me the truth, and my concerns about her not sharing her feelings lately. Because I'll tell you what, she's been distancing herself from me the last few weeks. Perhaps OM encounters? But, I also really wanted to know where her head was...
She went on to tell me that sometimes she feels fine and sometimes not; it's a rollercoaster for her too, and there will just be times like this. Let's keep our eyes on the road ahead of us...blah...blah...blah... Thing is, she tells me one thing and something a little different to her divorcee friend...read on...
At some point, I finally got her to open up to me a bit and she said something like she's just trying to process things because I'm the only one she's really ever had an R with, that she's gone out on dates with, etc. And without saying it, she wonders if I'm the one. Thing is, she's had any number of R's with OM...they were just a bit twisted, but she won't see that, twisted or not, they were still Rs.
Naturally, after our R talk and her falling asleep, I snooped some more. She actually did write to divorcee that she's thinking about OM less and less, but she still doubts our R. They were correponding about saying ILY, and how I mentioned this to my W, and how my W says it to me when she feels it, but at no other time. Divorcee writes something like, "depends if the love is based on friendship or based on lover." W responds back, "definitely friendship." WTF?
So, what to do guys? I'm wondering if I need to reread DR and go back to step 1 here. Maybe I'm saying too much too soon, even though she seems ready to hear it. You know, I really feel like I don't want to work on this junk anymore if all I'm going to get is someone who "likes" me...that feels like a friend. I feel like my W really needs to grow up here.
Also found out that I'm not communicating how I feel very well to her because she keeps interpreting what I'm saying as her not doing enough to help fix our R. I guess I'd better tread very carefully with these conversations. This came up numerous times in her e-mails...how she wasn't doing enough, etc. I guess telling her "thanks for A, B, and C, but if I got D it would be that much better" doesn't work. Time to shut up and put up.
I'm dying to call her on "seeing" the OM and her lying in my face, but what would that do? I'd expose my snooping...but man, it would feel good...
I'm so sick of the lies, the not in love BS, the half-truths. I feel like I'm gonna hurl.
Hey jethro -- Sorry you feel like hurling I DO think you got a bunch of good info to work with AND you answered your own questions in your post...
Quoting jethro: She actually did write to divorcee that she's thinking about OM less and less, but she still doubts our R. They were correponding about saying ILY, and how I mentioned this to my W, and how my W says it to me when she feels it, but at no other time. Divorcee writes something like, "depends if the love is based on friendship or based on lover." W responds back, "definitely friendship." WTF?
So, what to do guys? I'm wondering if I need to reread DR and go back to step 1 here. Maybe I'm saying too much too soon, even though she seems ready to hear it. You know, I really feel like I don't want to work on this junk anymore if all I'm going to get is someone who "likes" me...that feels like a friend. I feel like my W really needs to grow up here.
This is what I mean by answering your own question....yes, yes, yes to rereading DB and getting your focus back. Your w. is thinking less and less about om but isn't quite sure about your r. That's where YOU come in, right? As crappy as it may feel or sound or whatever, can you put aside your desires/needs for your w. to be "doing more" and focus all of your energy on db'ing? Figuring out what works, etc? It probably doesn't seem "fair" after all this time, right but the goal is...?
Quote: Also found out that I'm not communicating how I feel very well to her because she keeps interpreting what I'm saying as her not doing enough to help fix our R. I guess I'd better tread very carefully with these conversations. This came up numerous times in her e-mails...how she wasn't doing enough, etc. I guess telling her "thanks for A, B, and C, but if I got D it would be that much better" doesn't work. Time to shut up and put up.
My suggestion? Don't shut up completely...keep thanking her for A, B and C. Just don't mention D right now (really).
Quote: I'm so sick of the lies, the not in love BS, the half-truths. I feel like I'm gonna hurl.
I'm sorry. What have you done for YOU lately to make YOU feel good?
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Quote: I'm dying to call her on "seeing" the OM and her lying in my face, but what would that do? I'd expose my snooping...but man, it would feel good...
it'd feel good for all of a half a second til she started to blame your snooping for the reason she doesn't feel sure about the r.
jethro...you've seen me rant and rave about not feeling like my h is giving 100%...when I kept asking for it and asking for it, it seemed he withdrew and gave me less and less...sure I'd like for him to talk more about his "feelings" and crap like that but that really isn't a "normal" r now is it..yes, yes, I know we do not have "normal" r's right now do we..but if what we want is to have a "normal" r then perhaps it's best to "act as if" we do...
try to stop looking for the what's missing and look for the what's going well...focus on what's going well and it may just blossom...focus on what isn't going well and you'll find yourself drifting off into the crappy zone I've spent so much time in.
try not to dwell too much on the words w has used with her friend...sit and think back a while jethro...have the same questions and doubts entered your mind?
Hey, Jethro...Krap is right! I'm sorry you're going through such a tough time. I guess going back to the beginning of DR would be a good thing, and especially reading the chapter on affairs. Because, even if she's not having an affair with anyone in particular, she is really having a fantasy affair about whether there might be someone else better. Truth is, I doubt VERY MUCH if there would be - both because you seem like a very thoughtful and devoted man, and because EVERY marriage has its problems, EVERY person has their annoying traits (speaking as a very imperfect spouse, myself ), and if she would face reality, she'd realize this. But, few people in the place she's in are able to admit that truth about life...
I did realize this as my 2nd A began to dwindle, and I've always believed that if you truly love someone when you get married (which SBH&I DEFINITELY did) you can work through anything. I didn't realize it in time to break things off and come clean before SBH confronted me, but at least when he did confront me, it only took a couple of hours for me to be back on the commitment train. Since then, there were only two times when I even asked myself whether this was the right thing for me to be doing, and those two times were in the first month. And other than those two times specifically (minutes in lenght), I have felt 100%+ committed to making my marriage work. Oh, I didn't mean to go off on my stuff...just that all marriages have their problems and I think if you admit that, you can work through anything.
I just wish your W would admit it and stop daydreaming about "something better." My prayers are with both of you!
*ouch* man, I've been following your sitch for a while and I'm sorry to hear about what W has been telling her friend.
Quote: I'm dying to call her on "seeing" the OM and her lying in my face, but what would that do? I'd expose my snooping...but man, it would feel good...
It might feel good for a minute but I'd wager it would blow up in your face and be a setback for your R and DB'ing efforts. She likely thinks her e-mail is private - otherwise she wouldn't be saying the stuff she says in it. I think she'd see this snooping as a betrayal. What goals would confronting her accomplish - aside from the 'a-ha!caught you lying' factor? This is tough, you got some insight to her thinking right now. Maybe it would be best to take that and adjust how you're approaching things?
). In fact, I think that was the only thing getting me by, as I was pretty much having NO other affection from her at all. Right after I found out about her A (for a few weeks), we were doing it at least once a day. Now that things have settled down a bit, it's back to the twice a week, and even now she seems to get annoyed when I "push" for that.
), and if she would face reality, she'd realize this. But, few people in the place she's in are able to admit that truth about life...