Quote: So, I have to say that my W must have listened. She didn't go over to divorcee's house last night because BF would be there. In fact, we had a brief discussion about OM and her A last night where she was pretty sweet, I have to say. She said, "I meant it when I told you OM isn't half the man you are." I don't know why exactly she said it, but it was nice to hear. I thanked her...
ta da!!! it worked!! and don't worry about why exactly she said it...my guess would be because it's true and perhaps she senses that you still feel threatend by other men??
glad to see that w heard you..and did the right thing..
and hey we're all entitled to a slump once in a while..(lord knows I have em) just as long as you don't stay down there too long!!
Took your advice and thought I'd jump over here and see you. Lots to read to be in the know about your sitch. I'm glad the going to the GF's house thing worked out for you. I hope you and W can come to some sort of compromise about that sitch. Hopefully she would have enough consideration for your feelings to modify the hanging out a bit. But at the same time not feel like you are a "control freak."
I was wondering about her saying that she couldn't ask if the BF was going to be there or not. A friend should be able to understand that if a sitch was causing friction at home that that was an appropriate thing to check on. Or am I being naive?
I can't begin to know what the trust thing would have to be like for you in this scenario. But, I feel like you have to come to some sort of resolution about it. Maybe it will be easier to trust again knowing she is taking your feelings into account and trying to compromise.
Have you read Getting the Love you Want from Harville Hendrix? Very good stuff, even though W and I are sep at this time. Also something that was very good for me was, The Purpose Driven Life by Rick Warren. More of a religious take on things, but it really got me thinking about priorities in life. ?
Well, I thank you for your input my way and I wish you the best i your mending sitch.
Bye the way, sent a short, but sweet email to W. Don't feel totally LRT by doing this, but I felt it was appropriate to test the waters with a bit of a short, happy teaser. Haven't spoken to her in a week. I'll stop about me Take care!
wow. tough mc for sam and i last night. a trust issue came up and frankly, i was quite a bit disappointed with how sam handled things. very similar to your sitch. in my sitch, sam has been invited to get a cup of coffee by a former patient who is recently divorced. You and I both know what the immediate answer should have been: a resounding "No!"
whether or not our wives think they have dealt with the pain of their infidelities and are ready to move on matters not. if anyone disagrees and thinks i am "in love with my pain" and that is the reason i cannot move forward at this time, tough. i am not in love with my pain. if i could cut it out of my body i would do so even with a dull butterknife! my wife was unable to tell the man no, even though she had the feeling it would be wrong to say yes; she didn't want to hurt his feelings and she didn't ask me about it because she thought i would be angry. i would have done what you did, jethro: tell her it is up to her to decide but i was uncomfortable with it and if she needed a way to tell him no, i would have suggested she tell him it simply would be inappropriate because he was once a patient. but she considered going and neither said yes or no.
when she brought this up in counseling i became angry for two reasons, maybe even three. firstly, why the f did she even consider going? secondly, why didn't she come to me for support? and thirdly, given that she is now working on our m, why wasn't there an automatic response to immediately say no and to heck with the other guy's feelings? what about my feelings? if it feels ever so slightly wrong, then don't do it. don't do anything with someone else you couln't do if i were there.
I am very happy that you were able to get through to your wife and have her realize that what she was doing was a concern of yours, and also painful to you. I think you did a very strong thing by creating the dialog with her that allowed her to see what she was doing. i would have done the same thing if i had known about what my wife was struggling with. I am her husband and i am here to help, ya know?
maybe i'm reading too much into what is being said between sam and i. she has said to me many, many times she could never ever have another affair or hurt me like this again. but while she was explaining the whole thing to the counselor and i, she said she didn't think it could lead to another affair. am i paying too much attention to every word, or does that ring of uncertainty? we went from never ever to i don't think...are we too hypersensitive? and if we are, aren't we now unattractive and sabotaging our dbing efforts to save our m? i do not want sam to think, "gosh, nothing i do is enough for him."
however, the simple fact is: if one is having trouble with bounderies and keeps seeing that line as blurred, then that person needs to stay the f out of any sitch that will test those bounderies until the m is on solid ground again.
quoting you:
Quote: I guess, for me, she may feel as though she "paid" for it, but I don't think so. However, I know these thoughts will get US nowhere. So, I'm trying to just accept and forgive...and it's hard... I want vindication, but there is no such thing in this situation.
i have also come to realize vindication is impossible. what are we going to do, hurt the one we love so dearly? not an option. beat the om up? nah, too expensive. sure, maybe a sarcastic jab here or there, but not like we may have done before dbing because i certainly do not want my wife to feel i am rubbing her face into her mistakes. i am not trying to make her hurt any more than she already does. i hate to see her in such pain. i dearly love her and want to help her.
but your quote pretty much sums of my feelings. all we can do is accecpt and forgive...over...and over...and over...and over because the reminders are everywhere. shiny told me, as did you, that the images eventually fade and i think they will, but as the left behind and betrayed spouses our wives need to watch what they say and do because they are under our scruntiny! are we smothering or crowding them...probably a little. but gee, i can't imagine why. my point being, whether they are doing something wrong or not, it is their turn to understand how we perceive what they are doing and how it helps or hurts the m.
what bothers me most, is why do we even have to have the conversation in the first place? our wives must know of our hypersensitivity to their actions, right? in fact, just like when every single dber here in the beginning, had to "appear" to be making changes for the better, so our sig other would perceive we are changing. again, our sig other needs to be concerned with how we now perceive what they are doing. Especially now that our changes are permanent so as to help the marriage get better. (well, geddy lee did say "no changes are permanent, but change is," :-)right?).
quoting sam
Quote: So So so So hard to trust when you've been deceived and hurt. And when you're not seeing the things you need to to believe she is completely aware of how she got where she got.
Even SAM knows this and still has trouble coming to me, or else she would have simply asked how i felt about her having coffee with another man. she so desperately needs to stop feeling lonely. she believes lonliness to be the main reason for her infidelity. i understand this, so we have to understand and give a little slack even tho it hurts, i guess. i don't want her to be lonely; i want her to have many friends. i very much want her to be happy. but right now, while things are still raw, i feel that our wives need to be mindful of those boundery problems and not put themselves in any sitch where we as onetime lbses can let our imagination run wild.
to quote a quote:
Quote: all you can do is voice your fears and feelings and let her conscience do the rest of the work. the more honest you are with your feelings, and only yours (no blaming, no predicting), then she'll be allowed to be honest with hers.
Isn't this what we have been doing?
stay the course. i think we will all be ok soon. just a feeling...
Quoting jethro: Yeah, you're right and I need to stop.
So, I have to say that my W must have listened. She didn't go over to divorcee's house last night because BF would be there. In fact, we had a brief discussion about OM and her A last night where she was pretty sweet, I have to say. She said, "I meant it when I told you OM isn't half the man you are." I don't know why exactly she said it, but it was nice to hear. I thanked her...
So, SBH-SAM, I'm going to try and get myself out of this mini-slump...
How did I miss this yesterday?
She's listening and she is validating!!
Repeat that thought ... repeat it ... repeat it ... repeat it ...
Hi, Jethro...I wasn't trying to make you feel bad for being down, just thinking you could use a little dose of empathy from someone who REALLY knows how you feel.
Hey LL, KAW, LR23, SBH, and SBH-SAM. Thanks for the visits. So, SBH and SBH-SAM, I'm glad you guys got things worked out. This boundary thing can be difficult sometimes.
So, I have a couple of things I want to address, and mostly it comes as a result of Charcoal's last post in the WAW Syndrome thread. Her quote that got me is: "he's not letting me forget that he knows what's happened here".
My W and I had a tough R talk last night and I went off a bit and not sure that I should have...feeling kind of crummy about it today. In the last couple of weeks she has begun distancing herself (physically) from me. My "love language" is touch, so this gets to me a bit more than normal. Additionally, her sex drive is way down, which also bugs me because mine is always up (errr...no pun intended). In any case, I mentioned how it's really bothering me how she's not making more of an effort to meeting my love language, etc. Got a bit heated because it came as a result of being rejected for sex (again). She gets pissy because she thinks it's only about sex and I try to tell her that it's just part of it, but certainly not all of it. I need affection dammit! The woman barely kisses me. I end up saying some rough things, most of which revolve around her A (which, in some cases were valid)...but certainly not all necessary.
So, Char's quote gets to me because I think I'm getting stuck in the past more than I should rather than looking on how to move forward with the information I now have. Lately things have been pretty rough for me, so I'm trying...but it's not easy... I guess I just need to shift my mind-set. Got to focus on what she is doing, and not what she isn't...
Also, reading Char's last post brought up something else that I just wanted to throw out there, philosophically speaking. The question is "What does it mean to not feel in love?" I tend to wonder if it's possible to feel "in love" with our Ses after being together for a long time. I mean, we always love them, but that "in love" state is, as far as I can tell, simply a heightened sense of euphoria based on some illusion of romantic love (odd coming from a romantic, huh?).
From my situation, it seems to me that WAs experience no feeling (or have deadened feelings), and this seems to drift into other portions of life (such as feelings for children, other family members, and friends). However, they feel most "dead" with us because we are supposed to represent the one in which they are supposed to be in love with...to have the MOST feelings for, in other words... Now that the feelings in general have deadened, our WAs think we represent the biggest hole. And thus, it's time to run and find it elsewhere.
What do you guys think? Maybe I had too much sun this weekend. Visited my sis in Palm Desert...about 105...
Your W sounds a lot like mine. She really doesn't iniate any kind of touch that much. Where my LL is also touch. I think that with the WA's that its not that things have deadned its that those feelings are just plain hurt. Those live feelings have changed to fear and resentment. I think that once your WAs can get past the fear and resentmant that they start to see the love feeling that there that is buried so deep.
Quoting jethro: So, I have a couple of things I want to address, and mostly it comes as a result of Charcoal's last post in the WAW Syndrome thread. Her quote that got me is: "he's not letting me forget that he knows what's happened here".
So, Char's quote gets to me because I think I'm getting stuck in the past more than I should rather than looking on how to move forward with the information I now have. Lately things have been pretty rough for me, so I'm trying...but it's not easy... I guess I just need to shift my mind-set. Got to focus on what she is doing, and not what she isn't...
jethro -- Yah, Charcoal's quote got to me too when I read it...yesterday I had a mini-meltdown with h (sadness not anger) and I wondered how/if when that happens he views it as me still being unable to let go of the a. Is that what it is? A lack of forgiveness or just a byproduct of the healing process?
Anyway, sounds like Char's post + your own insights have led you to the right spot -- focusing on the things that w. IS doing. If you can notice and appreciate those, I'm thinking that you will see a positive reaction from w. (patience on that, though!!)
Quote: Also, reading Char's last post brought up something else that I just wanted to throw out there, philosophically speaking. The question is "What does it mean to not feel in love?" I tend to wonder if it's possible to feel "in love" with our Ses after being together for a long time. I mean, we always love them, but that "in love" state is, as far as I can tell, simply a heightened sense of euphoria based on some illusion of romantic love (odd coming from a romantic, huh?).
From my situation, it seems to me that WAs experience no feeling (or have deadened feelings), and this seems to drift into other portions of life (such as feelings for children, other family members, and friends). However, they feel most "dead" with us because we are supposed to represent the one in which they are supposed to be in love with...to have the MOST feelings for, in other words... Now that the feelings in general have deadened, our WAs think we represent the biggest hole. And thus, it's time to run and find it elsewhere.
I don't know how to correlate "in love" with the fantasy behavior stuff that I saw between h and ow (emails, etc). I am "in love" with my h. but I think that those feelings became unearthed from under layers of anger and resentment, etc (that even predated finding out about the a.). I think my h's lack of feeling for me (I can't recall now if he ever said he wasn't "in love" with me tho' he certainly said "it has never felt right") was made up of much of the same...it wasn't so much that the feelings weren't there but that they had so much fear and anger and all that crap piled on top that he couldn't feel them.
That DOESN'T mean he's sending me six gushy emails a day however as he did with the ow he was "in love" with. Isn't that infatuation? I don't know. Isn't it possible to feel that heady, I can't wait to see you feeling at this stage? I feel that frequently with h. but as the LBS (so to speak) I feel like I have to temper my excitement and "in loveness" with some reservation and guardedness...At least in the beginning (and apparently for sometime into it...) DB'ing isn't conducive to that "in love" feeling...I get the sense you have to get to a "breakthru" point to allow yourself to get back there.
Not sure I even answered your question now but I sure did use a lot of words in the process.
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
first of all, jethro, I definitely KNOW how W feels when you want sex. she thinks... oh, it's just about sex, it's not about ME or LOVE, or ME, or ME... it's all about HIM... honestly? Withholding what your spouse really needs is more than cruel. Well, I'm not going to do that my H anymore. I'm sorry you're going through that.
I can certainly equate it with how H wasn't meeting MY needs and I wouldn't wish that feeling on my worst enemy. With me begging and pleading for H to get help, or to not get help, to just be my friend... and getting told, NO! So, what the heck? H needs lovin', H gets lovin' (most of the time). If that's gonna help H be my friend and meet my needs, then, shoot yeah...
As for you focusing on the past. What do you mean by that. Are you saying that being denied now hurts like it did before? I didn't get that.
The other thing i wanted to say about being "In LOVE" is this...
To me, being in love means I'll know H was the right choice for the long haul. It means that I am 100% conscious of my committment to the R and that H is 100% conscious of his committment and that we are both aware of all that entails.
SBH & I had a rough day yesterday, and I'm up in the wee hours partly b/c of anxiety about everything...I'm REALLY working on the sex thing. I DK how much your W is interested/willing to look at herself and why she feels the way she feels, but I've been really trying to notice what my response is when SBH comes on to me. Physical touch is DEFINITELY his primary LL, and I'm finding that it's really tough for me to see it as a loving thing.
Maybe it's just me needing to work on my issues, but I know a lot of women feel this way - for me, it stirs up anxiety and guilt, both about times I've felt out of control and about the As. Not much of a turn on. SBH is being patient about it. I feel like I'm doing real work on it for the first time in my life. Finally.
I ABSOLUTELY believe that "in love" feeling is possible throughout a marriage. I think it comes and goes - at least that's what people say - but I think the reason it goes is because of fear, resentment, all the things you and others have listed here. It's a balance, I guess, of the comfort in routine/predictability, and the intensity of passion. And the hurts of life. No intense feeling lasts forever. Healthy people move through life with feelings ebbing & flowing, ever changing. I guess really healthy people find the peace in trusting that process.
I hope I can do that someday.
I hope you & everyone else can do that, too!
Well, there's my philosophical moment for the day...
Or am I being naive?
This boundary thing can be difficult sometimes.
Visited my sis in Palm Desert...about 105...
as he did with the ow he was "in love" with. Isn't that infatuation? I don't know. Isn't it possible to feel that heady, I can't wait to see you feeling at this stage? I feel that frequently with h. but as the LBS (so to speak) I feel like I have to temper my excitement and "in loveness" with some reservation and guardedness...At least in the beginning (and apparently for sometime into it...) DB'ing isn't conducive to that "in love" feeling...I get the sense you have to get to a "breakthru" point to allow yourself to get back there.
