All, I have a question for everyone because since I'm in this situation, I cannot think clearly. Let me paint a picture here.
So, my W now does not really go out so much anymore. This is because she doesn't feel the need to as much, but it's also because my sister (whom was her party buddy) is pregnant and taking it easy. So, to replace this, she likes to pay a weekly visit to her divorcee friend. So, this friend has a "kind of" boyfriend, but they are not really committed to one another. Every Wednesday, this "kind of" boyfriend comes over to the divorcee's house and the three of them hang out, talk, drink, etc. My W usually doesn't come home until late (~1:00ish) from these events.
I have concerns because I perceive my W spending "quality" time with another man who's not really spoken for, but she assures me there's absolutely no interest. I brought up how I was uncomfortable with this the other day and she was absolutely livid with me because I don't trust her (give me a break). Her point is that she'd never put herself through that kind of stress again, has told me this numerous times, and that the visits are harmless. My point is that her visits at the bar where she met OM were harmless at first too. She understands how I feel, but will not "give in to my insecurities" (her words).
Am I being overly sensitive you guys? On the one hand I think I should just act as if and not worry about it. Her behavior does suggest that she's committed to me. On the other hand, I can't help but having concerns that this is planting the seed for a future cheating.
Thanks all.
Quoting Robin:As for the sex thing, all I can say is maybe it's the season - my desire has disappeared completely...of course in my case, that's probably a good thing, since I have no partner.
I am in no way in the right frame of mind to reply, but I will do it anyway.
Speaking from my own situation, I am sick of being walked on and just being expected to let it happen. I honestly believe that in a marriage, there shouldnt be an I. Only we. I dont think there should be occasions where 1 person goes out while the other person is strictly "forbidden" to join. Heck, your sister has her man there, why cant you be there too?
I didnt get this with my W either. She started going out with SIL all the time. A lot of the time SIL would have a man there with her, or other friends would join and they would come as couples, but W would go alone, and in no way was I invited. To me its a bunch of BS selfishness that shouldnt belong in a marriage.
I think this whole time I have missunerstood some of the dbing principles. "Acting as if" I dont think really pertains to this situation, and I dont think this is something to "let go", but I think there are good and bad ways to deal with it. Maybe a time to bring it up, and a time not to. I dont have any idea how to do that. Only thing I can think of that I could have done differently in my situation is to almost have interupted her little getaways. By that I mean this. I make plans to do something, and W makes plans to do something. Now we have a dilema because someone has to watch the kids. Since she gets to go out all the time, shouldnt I be the one to get to go out this time? Of course an argument about it wouldnt be good, but there are probably constructive ways to go about it. I guess its just the frame of mind I am in right now. I personally wouldnt take any of my own advice right now.
FLoyd The grass is always GREENER over the septic tank.
Quoting jethro: Am I being overly sensitive you guys? On the one hand I think I should just act as if and not worry about it. Her behavior does suggest that she's committed to me. On the other hand, I can't help but having concerns that this is planting the seed for a future cheating.
Boy, I hope dropping by my thread hasn't influenced your thinking here?
Yes, I believe acting "as-if" is the right way to go. Not worring about it is the trick! Can't help much there. I can relate to how W is put off with your insecurities and can tell you, it doesn't work to continue bring them up or to express concerns about what she does based on them. You're gonna have to show that you are working on getting past them on your own. Remember, its strength and sef-confidence that make you more attractive.
Hi, Jethro...thanks for the words of encouragement!
I'll give you a little different perspective on the w+divorcee issue...
I agree with you that this is potentially a setup for another affair/cheating/whateveryouwanttocallit...Difficult for me to admit for myself, but the truth is, those of us who broke boundaries did so because we didn't know how to keep good ones in the first place. Part of keeping good boundaries is not being in the wrong place, at any time...
Hanging out with a divorcee and her "boyfriend" does not strike me as a good place for a married woman with children. I agree with Floyd about the intricacies of the "Acting As If" part of DBing. I think that is more when there is not an affair or for things around the house. If you "act as if" you are not bothered by her spending time in an inappropriate atmosphere, you're lying to yourself and to her. Or at best, repressing your emotions about it.
I do not believe there is much use in repressing emotions when we're working on our Ms...Your feelings are reflecting a legitimate concern you have. Could you discuss it & try to find another solution for it? E.g., if she's lonely, perhaps she could find a reading club, or some other activity that is more appropriate for a married woman, invite the divorcee if she wants, but not just "hang out" with a bunch of single people. Does that make sense? Or perhaps you guys could get a babysitter and do an actual DATE with the divorcee/boyfriend? Costs $$$, which, in my sitch, isn't always a realistic idea, but it is one option.
The idea isn't for me to tell you & your W what to do, though. It's about learning to problem solve as a couple. Talk about it. You have a legitimate concern. Not because you don't trust her from her previous behavior, just because this isn't really "married woman" behavior. That's my opinion, anyway.
Just a little personal experience as an example...I had a person who came in as a client, but after talking with him I realized he was the neighbor of some of our good friends. I told him I couldn't be his therapist because of this, and he went to another therapist.
He and his wife had just separated. He invited me over to his house - to show me his garden, which is beautiful, something he puts a lot into, and it seemed reasonable to go visit him to see it. I went once and felt a little uncomfortable, but, quite frankly , I'm kind of shy and have been molested, so I'm used to feeling uncomfortable in a lot of situations with men, and didn't really realize that my discomfort might be telling me something other than that I was with a man that I felt a little uncomfortable aroudn.
I went a couple more times, then thought, "Man, my H is so trusting of me to not be bothered by me having lunch with this guy, alone at his house." There was NO WAY I was attracted to this guy, or (so I thought) NO WAY I would ever have an affair on my H. But then I thought, my H shouldn't have to tell me not to do this - it is not appropriate for a married woman to have lunch alone at a recently divorced man's house. So I stopped going over there, and, acutally, stopped having lunch wiht him at all, got busy, and maybe he got a message...
This was all before I had the affairs. Wish I'd been so astute in those situations, too...
Anyway, good luck with this one. Not easy, this DBing, is it??!!
Great stuff! What to do? I find myself rather siding with Sam and Floyd here. But it's a tough call. I can see your W resenting your distrust, but Sam makes valid points about boundaries, and inappropriate situations.
And why AREN't you joining her on these visits? This IS a little odd to me. I can see an all girls night, but...? Maybe that's just old fashioned, but jeez, she did cheat on you, right?
Oh hell, it's late and I've been catching up for HOURS, probably making no sense at all!
Hey Jethro, you poor bastard...it is quite a shame that your wife doesn't "get it," especially after you have expressed your concerns and worked so hard dbing. The following is not IMHO, it is just a fact that she should NOT be placing herself in ANY situations that make you pause for even the slightest moment wondering if she is attracted to the man in some way. You read Sams post just above, she visited an ex client and I trusted her completely. I feared for her safety, but I trusted her and I have always had issues with trust; it is something I don't do very well. However, I felt that trusting her completely would be a great way of demonstrating how much I loved her. So, I didn't let it bother me and I trusted her.
After all that has happened since, would I allow that again? F*** no!
If your wife really wants this m to work out, she better open her eyes and pay a little more attention to your feelings. Or if this is some silly little test she is making you go through to measure your trust in her, she needs to rethink it. Your efforts at dbing should be enough to show her how much you care. If she is aware this makes you uncomfortable and is still doing it, she is not showing respect for you or your feelings. That little twinge you have in your stomach telling you this doesn't feel right is there for a reason: you KNOW this is a big issue! If it hurts her feelings that you don't trust her, too bad. She cheated on you, man.
Tell her to get her priorities straight. I hope this post doesn't bother you, but I see what she is doing as just plain wrong and I have witnessed how much pain she has caused you...and it is wrong for her to make you feel the way you do. Even you told me it takes time to be willing to trust your spouse once betrayed. Your wife needs to give you that time and not expect that things are ok just because you are still working on the marriage.
You are NOT overreacting or being insensitive. She is pushing those bounderies again.
You, and everyone else on these boards, are in my prayers. Be well.
jethro -- hmmm, not sure I can add any wisdom here. I can imagine that I would feel as uncomfortable as you seem to if I were in the same sitch.
I guess the "as if" stance would be the truest DB action? But, that doesn't feel completely right to me...almost like it's missing something...when your w. goes out in this scenarios, how does it play out? It may be easier to imagine a true 180 with more details.
What would be your top three solutions to this issue? I'm guessing that #1 would be that she just not hang out with this guy -- am I right? what would the other two be? Are there things that w could do to make this feel more OK with you? Not sure she'd be willing to do them, of course, 'cause some of them might "scream" of control ...
Sage
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
Well, I really want to thank everyone for their detailed feedback. You guys are great! It's VERY much appreciated...and unfortunately, makes my stomach turn a bit more. I think I need to be more clear about this situation for you guys, so you can better understand.
Thing is, the guy is nice...pretty conservative...not that that means much these days, and we have done stuff as couples before...any number of times. My W has vehemently claimed she has NO attraction to him whatsoever. Well, my point to her is that she didn't have any attraction to OM at first either. The reason I don't join them is because my W goes over to divorcee's house in the evenings while I watch the kiddies. Divorcee has her own son, and since she's D'd, can't come over to our house because nobody is there to watch her S...otherwise, I expect that would happen more often.
My W, to this day, is still very strong-willed about making sure she has other Rs outside of ours. She doesn't mean with OMen, but with her girlfriends. So, she likes to take off at least once/week to do this...and I think that's fine. But girlfriend time is girlfriend time...and should not involve another man.
Now, after receiving some feedback yesterday from you guys, I wrote my W a long e-mail expressing my concerns and such. It may seem cowardly, but I can express myself significantly better using this medium. In any case, I get home at the same time as her (she hadn't read the e-mail yet), then she immediately goes upstairs to read her e-mail and sees it. She didn't say much to me and was ticked off about it. In fact, we spoke very little last night at all...had the big white elephant in the room syndrome. Now, I suppose my timing could have been better with the e-mail because she's stressing out about our son and how our R has been with him lately. It's really getting to her. So, I added this stuff on top of her already stressful day.
We cordially talked about my son in the evening, and later, while I was preparing a marinade for tonight's dinner, I asked her if she wanted to talk. Her response was no. I expect I might get an e-mail back today, but I'm not sure. In fact, given the past, it's possible she won't ever bring it up...which is contrary to what we should be doing (but I'm hoping that dynamic has changed).
I'm getting very uncomfortable because this very much reminds me of the conversations we used to have about her going out all of the time and not really listening to what I was saying about her boundaries then. The past seems to be resurfacing. In reality, she's always had a problem with boundaries, but if I tell her this, I can expect a very angry W. So, how do I approach this? Her hackles are already up, she's in fight/defensive mode even though I'm not biting.
The only good thing I can say is that last night she fell asleep on the couch fairly early. When I woke up early this morning to go workout, she said something along the lines that she got a really good sleep and feels much better. But that was all...and I hope I can interpret that to not only mean about our son, but also about this situation. Again, I'll have to wait and see.
Anyway, thanks again guys. I'm tempted to tell her that you guys (the "peeps" as she calls you) for the most part agree with me (except KAW), but that might not work too well either... She has expressed in the past that she thinks it's nice I have a place to go to vent/talk about our sitch.
Quote: I'm getting very uncomfortable because this very much reminds me of the conversations we used to have about her going out all of the time and not really listening to what I was saying about her boundaries then. The past seems to be resurfacing. In reality, she's always had a problem with boundaries, but if I tell her this, I can expect a very angry W. So, how do I approach this? Her hackles are already up, she's in fight/defensive mode even though I'm not biting.
hmmmmm...
well jethro...It'd be my opinion also that somehow this "issue" needs to be addressed...otherwise it will fester in you...so how to address it??
choose to accept it as is...trusting that maybe w has learned about boundaries and will not let anything happen that shouldn't happen ....after all she did say once if I recall that she'd never do anything like it again cause it would kill her (that was her right??) so you can trust if you can find a way to feel comfortable with it..
or you can trust but also have a discussion about the possible concern you have about boundaries being pottentially crossed due to the sit...how could you address this without saying what you've said here..."she's always had a problem with boundaries" as no one likes to be told what's wrong with them...is there another way to address that issue??
How far do I have to go back to see how and when your WAW came home?Why don't you suggest the 4 of you going out to eat or something then you can see how they treat each other.
It's VERY much appreciated...and unfortunately, makes my stomach turn a bit more. I think I need to be more clear about this situation for you guys, so you can better understand.