Back on the Roller Coaster - OW still around

[micoms]

FA,

They will poke their heads out of the tunnel then retreat back, but they say the times out will get longer and the trips back in will be shorter and not so deep. Keep with the program.

I think we all look for the worst to be happening and look for signs that it is. Resist the temptation to drive by his house, if he's not home you will automatically think he's with OW. I know that now my W is thinking that about me.

Went to D24's house tonight to pick up some clothes from her BF. D said oh my God when I walked in because I shaved my goatee off, she's never seen me clean faced. W noticed also, she asked why I shaved it off. I guess I must have soundeda bit defensive and said I did it for myself. I bet she thinks I did it for who I'm "dating", LOL. I had on new clothes, D19 took me shopping Sun, got some great buys. Was wearing designer slacks and shirt (never worn really these in the past), W asked where I was going tonight. Said to meet a friend for something to eat and a drink. She asked if had a date, I didn't respond. She's wondering!!! Took coaches advice and told W on leaving it was good to see her and she really looks good. She said I really looked good also, D24 said I'll say, too bad you're my Dad! Was there about 45 min, played with GS more than half of the time, very little with W.

Whe you go out Wed or Thurs, be evasive about who you are going to met, say a friend. Let him wonder if the friend is male or female. I know it must be driving my W mad wondering if I'm seeing someone. I'm not and that's why I've told my S what is going on.

I see some positives in W. She was awake the whole time I was there, a month ago she would have fallen asleep after sitting on the couch for 5 min. She seemed to try to dig for an answer for if I had a date, shows somewhat she cares/is jealous.

Mike

[fooled again]

Mike,

I'm really encouraged by what your W is saying. Of course, we're told to not believe anything we hear and only half of what we see (funny, my Great Grandmother, who lived to be 93, full of P&V the whole time told me that when I was very young). BUT, your W's actions are: she's awake when you're there, she is talking to you & asking questions (I'm assuming she hasn't talked much about D lately - another action/inaction) and she's asking others about what you are doing/who you are seeing. You've definitely created some mystery!

It's wonderful to see your kids getting on board w/ what you are trying to do, but in a subtle way - they sound like wonderful people (a reflection of you!) and that they really do care about you and your W's happiness. I know that if my D was older, she would be doing the same.

Bet seeing yourself w/out the goatee must be like looking at another person. Alot of women have strong opinions about facial hair on their men - I'm not surprised your W thinks you did it for someone else. More mystery!

Yesterday evening I finally talked to H after no word for days. He was cautiously excited about this job - he has been told he will have a written offer by Fri, but I know he is afraid that it could all blow up in his face. But I was encouraging and supportive and excited for him as he told me the details of his conversations w/ the recriuter. I mentioned that I had been worried about him since I hadn't heard from him in days, and I was afraid that the news about this job had been bad and he was upset. He said that he wanted to talk to me about that later, since I had dinner plans w/ D's friend's family and had to go.

So I called him back after D had gone to bed. We first talked about D and her behaviour challenges (I did so w/out blaming him, though I suspect he is aware that alot of her issues are from our sep).

I hadn't intended for it to turn into an R talk w/ him, but it turned into one, though not by my initiative. He asked me if I had plans for the rest of the week and I said, "yes, why do you ask?" He got defensive and agitated and said, "never mind, it doesn't matter." I asked him what was going on & where was this coming from. He said, "I get it. You are being cautious, not telling me anything. It's my fault." I asked him if he wanted to ask me to do something with him and he said something to the effect of I should have known that was what he was asking. So I ended up telling him what my plans were & who with. He asked about my friends and mentioned that alot of my new friends are single or divorced. I didn't respond. I also ended up making plans to see him as he asked me to come over after D goes to bed today and wanted to come to the school event on Fri. I also mentioned that D was sleeping over at her friend's next week, did he have any plans and would he like to do something w/ me. He said yes.

I know, these things were not what I had planned to do or say to him. I didn't create mystery and I did jump at the chance to see him. But you know, I think those were the right things to do. I hear him reaching out to me, and I think that it would be helpful for him to feel rejected by me right now. I believe he is broken, guilty, afraid, depressed, overwhelmed by how he has completely destroyed so much and doesn't know how to fix it. He said he feels like he has nothing to give D and I, he wants to feel like he has some value. I said I understand why he would feel that way. I also said that he needs to know that his value to us is not only monetary. I said I don't go to sleep at night wondering when H is going to start making money - I go to sleep at night wondering when I will stop going to bed alone every night. He said he thinks about both of those things every night.

Then I asked him what he wanted to talk to me about that he mentioned in our earlier conversation. He said that he calls me and calls me and often doesn't get hold of me. But when I make one call and don't get him, I say something like what I said in my vmail msg yesterday and he feels like he has screwed up.

And that's when I told him that I'm trying to give him space, that I'm trying to guess what he needs b/c he's not telling me what he needs. He had told me about a month ago that he needs to be away from me sometimes in order to feel comfortable around me (hmm poking in and out of the tunnel?). I reminded him of that and that I interpreted that as him needing space. I don't want to push him away by trying to pull him closer to me. If he needs me to call him more often I will, but I didn't think that's what he wanted. I asked him if he would be able to tell me what he needs from me. He said that I used to know what he needed. I said tell me when that was. Then he said I used to know what he needed, I would hold him and talk to him, and I just knew. I wanted to explain that we need to tell each other what we need, but I stopped myself and instead said that I wanted to do these things for him.

He said at one point in the conversation that he's afraid someone is going to walk into my life and walk away with me, if that hasn't already happened. I let a long silence go by, not sure what to say. Then I said that I didn't want him to feel that way.

I also told him that I understand that this job/career thing consumes all of his thoughts. He said it does. I told him that I believe in him. He said "I guess I just need to hear that." I said that I'm not afraid b/c I know that he will make things alright again.

There was alot more to this conversation, but I feel actually really good about how it came out and what was said and how it ended. This time I said ILY first.

So I'm still going out tonight after work, but I'll stop in and see him afterwards. Tomorrow I'm going to be out late. Friday I will see him at the school. I don't know about the w/end, but he is taking D skiing again. I'm still wondering about OW, but our talk makes me doubt her involvement now. Yeah, I know, I keep flip flopping on that one, and I guess I will for awhile.

Thanks for keeping me focused on the good things and keep up the good job you are doing - it seems to be producing the desired response. Just be ready when she reaches out to you to cautiously reach back. That's I guess what I need to start doing a bit more of, again, as you suggested earlier.

FA

[micoms]

FA,

You go girl! Great news, seems H is wanting back in your lives. Maybe when you get together with H, when D is at overnighter, you can sit down and set some goals. Use your DB skills! MAbe set up a niht every other week or so where just the two of you go out. Do you have any family near who could watch D fo the night?

This is what you've worked so hard for, take it slow. Make sure you don't get back into old habits. In my case if W wanted to restore M I would not let her come back home right away, 2 or 3 months of dating first, working on getting the feelings stirred up again, I'd want a date night every week, more hugs and kisses.

It was a shock when I saw myself without beard, I've had it for over 20 years. I don't thinkour kids have ever seen me without one. I' be going to D's house again this weekend, for Chucky Cheese for GS. Will make sure to look good and upbeat. Might stop by Sat to drop off mail while on my way "out". Maybe she'll do a drive by again.

Again great news, it might be time to pursue H just a little. Let him know your still interested. Maybe it's time to read some posts in piecing, get somme ideas on how to procede. Good luck!!!

Mike

[fooled again]

Journaling,

Okay, now here's an example how an event that at appears at first to be negative could possibly turn out to have a positive effect. At this point I don't know the final effect, but it certainly has made my H think...

I had decided to give my H a key to the house after he stayed overnight before his trip on VDay. On Wed this week, I asked if he would mind going to the house to let the dog out for me as I had planned to go to the gym w/ my friend after work that day. Later that night I was supposed to drop by his place (on his suggestion). On my way home he calls me and tells me he's taking D skiing the next day and leaving w/ her that night to stay at a friends place. I was disappointed and was unable to keep that from coming out. But we talked a bit and in the end I was ok and thought he was ok.

Last night I had a book club meeting, which my H had asked me lots of Qs about, including where it was, who would be there, etc. He did not sound happy about the whole thing. I called partway through to say goodnite to D but got no answer so I left a vmail. About 2 hrs later H calls on his way back from skiing not sounding happy at all, speaking in curt sentences, sounding cold. I asked about the day, the drive, how D was, how he was. Then H started talking about how he was thinking about our sitch and if he were me, he could think of many reasons why he shouldn't stay w/ him. He said he made a list of pros & cons, didn't everyone do this. I then realized that when he had been at the house, he had snooped around & found my journal and read a list of pros & cons I had made about a month ago on my Mom's suggestion. I had listed things like his lying, his debts, the fact that he was unemployed in the "cons". The "pros" list had that I love him, he's a good father, he does nice things for me, he loves me, he makes me laugh, he's an amazing lover and some other things.

I tried not to let him draw me into a fight and tried not to defend myself. He said he was disgusted by it and didn't read anything else in the journal (I highly doubt that). I explained that my Mom suggested it and that it really meant nothing because in the end, those things were temporary and the thing that mattered the most is that I love him and still want to be w/ him. He said he can imagine the hoops he would have to jump through to get back in the house. I said the only hoop he has to jump through is to want to come home. He said he was going to sign the house over to me, he want's nothing to do w/ it, and that I should find someone else - that it shouldn't take long to find someone better than him. I said I'm not looking for anyone else. He said he didn't want to make me cry (I did, but I was still calm) & that I should go back to my book club meeting where I can tell everyone all about it and what a b@st@rd he was. I said that I wouldn't be doing that. We ended the call on a bad note, but there was nothing I could do about that.

I called later that night to say goodnight, but he didn't answer, so I left a msg saying that I could understand why he would be hurt and upset by what he read, and that I was sorry he had seen it (I never once got mad at him for snooping). I said that in the end those things don't matter to me, that I love him, I always have and always will and that I still want to make this work.

So I'm thinking, damn, I should have hidden my journal better - it was under my mattress, tucked way in, (along w/ my copy of DR), so he was definitely snooping for something. The pro/con list was the last item, less than one page long. But there was alot more in there about my R goals and how to achieve them, all of the small steps I would need to see from H to show me we were getting closer to meeting those goals, and other stuff about my thoughts and feelings. I suspect he must have read at least some of that - his curiosity would have made him at least flip through - so he has read about the positive things I'm thinking about too. But now he knows where my head is at w/out us having a R talk. It's pretty obvious by his snooping that he was trying to find that out.

I'm not going to overreact and try to figure out whether this has caused a backslide in our sitch. But he did call me today to ask if he could wash his car at the house and should he let the dog out - I said feel free, and I would appreciate that. I asked him how he was feeling & did he get my message. He said fine & yes. We ended the call saying have a good day to each other. I would have to guess that reading my journal has made him realize that I am thinking about my future and what is best for me, that I am willing and able to get on w/ my life if he does not come back. That I am more emotionally detached and looking at things somewhat logically instead of merely emotionally. Maybe this fiasco (a little too dramatic?) will turn out to be a good thing if it makes him realize that I will not be a doormat. I just don't want to worsten his depression, but then, what can I do about that - nothing. But by the things he was saying last night, it's pretty clear to me that he has a ways to go before he is out of the tunnel, out of his depression.

It appears that we are still going to D's school event tonight together, but I don't know if H still wants to spend time w/ me afterwards (he originally suggested we watch a movie at his place after D goes to bed). We'll see. I have some friends I can meet up w/, and I'm sure that will make him think if he tells me he doesn't want to spend time w/ me tonight.

This development is not something I would or could have planned, and I'm really curious as to how it will affect our progress, but I'm not getting my hopes up or down. I'm just going to "monitor" and figure out what is working or not working.

Thanks for reading,
FA

[micoms]

FA,

Amazing with what our S's do to us by wanting to leave/D, that if we get to the place where we think is it worth it, worth putting up with all the crap and WE have thoughts about pitching it all THEY get upset.

Tell H it was a list to help you decide if YOU wanted to stay in the R, that the pros meant much more than the cons, and it helped you to make the decision that staying in the M is what meant the most to you.

Sounds to me that H wants back in the M and finding your journal was a reality check on the damage he has caused. He wonders if he can overcome the damage.

In my sich, went out with S26, met up with his friend and his friend's mom and her BF at a neighborhood pub. D19 came later with a friend. D told me W came to the restaurant D works at. W had too much to drink and actually got sick in the bathroom. I wonder if it, the drinking too much, is from her thinking I'm seeing someone/moving on? Going to stop by D24's house tonight to drop off some clothes (D24's BF has gained some weight and now wears what doesn't fit me) for D's BF. Will only stay for a little while, when leaving I'll give W a compliment. If she asks if I have a date I'll tell her I'd rather have one with you, I'll cancel my plans if you want to go out. We'll see.

Mike

[micoms]

FA,


It really does sound to me that H wants to come back. it might be time to see. If he does use DB skills, set some goals, small ones, to achieve and build on. In my case I would want W & I to date for 2 or 3 months, work on the In Love feelings. A date night every week, R talks once a week how we are progressing, what we need from each other, good morning and night kisses, more hugs. Things we got away from over the years.

Reassure H that the pro side of the list meant more than the con. And you still want him and the M. Good luck.

Mike

[fooled again]

Mike,

I did tell H exactly that, both when we first discussed it and when I left the vmail. I have not brought it up and neither has he. Suffice it to say that it is out there (the fact that I have analyzed the costs and benefits of getting back together w/ him) and now he knows that I am not going to spend the rest of my life waiting for him.

I understand that MLCers cycle, and this has been my H's pattern for a long time. I also understand the notion of not pressuring them b/c it just makes them want to run. But this was something he was looking for - what am I thinking? And he found out. And it was accomplished w/out R talks.

I think you are right that H wants back in to the M, but I also believe that he is scared, ashamed, and depressed still, and that it will be a long time before he has worked through those feelings. I'm trying not to make him feel that there is someone waiting in the wings to swoop in and take me away, but it's important that he know that I will live my life to take care of myself. Neither of us want the M we had before - I was much too dependent on H. I know he doesn't want that, but at the same time, my independence threatens him, probably because it is a 180 for me.

I had an interesting thought last night after I got home from a "date" w/ my H (rented a movie, drank wine, had snacks & ML). I was thinking, we could simply live our lives exactly as we are now, him doing his thing, me doing mine, taking turns w/ D & spending some time together just the two of us every week, but living in the same house & sleeping in the same bed. I saw how, except for his cycling and my worrying (not so much lately), this could work long term. Obviously there would have to be an assurance of no OW, & to be honest, H would not move back if OW was still around - I know this as sure as I know anything. And obviously we would have to put in the effort to communicate and fulfill each other's needs.

I know we have a long way to go before that could happen, but I can picture it in my mind, and for me that's half the battle to achieving my goals. All along I was trying to figure out what our new M would look like if it couldn't be as it was before. I think I might be onto something, at least something to shoot for.

Time for some more work on my goals. This has always been a challenge for me, and maybe it's because of not being able to visualize where I want to be. I wish I could tell him all this. But I won't, I'll just work on myself and celebrate the baby steps.

Mike, I'm not sure if you should believe your W's drinking is about you. She is coming out of a bad period of depression and is likely cycling too. I like your idea of having plans that you would break to spend an evening w/ her. You accomplish two things - letting her know you have plans (GAL) and letting her know you would rather be w/ her (validation & loving gesture). You can't lose there - good plan. I really hope she says yes, but if she doesn't, you can bet she'll be thinking about what you are doing and wondering what kind of a date you would have had together.

I sortof did that tonight. H & I had made tentative plans that H seemed about to blow off. So I told him to let me know asap if he didn't want to spend this evening w/ me so I could make other plans. He called back to ask if we cold take D to the movies together.

I would want W & I to date for 2 or 3 months, work on the In Love feelings. A date night every week, R talks once a week how we are progressing, what we need from each other, good morning and night kisses, more hugs. Things we got away from over the years.

I think that's what H and I have been doing, dating, though it's been about 4 mos and I think it will be longer still before we can talk about him moving home. H did mention something about hoops he'd have to jump through to get back in the house, to which I replied that the only hoop he needed to jump through is to "want" to be back in the house. I put it in his court because I know he has to be ready.

The R talks once/wk would be tough since he's not such a talker, but maybe if they were short. I read somewhere that men aren't great w/ long R talks, but if you approach them w/ something small regularly, then there isn't the need for a really BIG R talk. Made sense to me, but by the time I read that there was so much wrong it seemed impossible. Now I see how the "baby steps" philosophy works in that circumstance, small talks, small changes that add up to bigger ones.

I'm really excited about something else I did today that was GALing. I had a babysitter that I didn't use much b/c she was very busy and sometimes couldn't sit for me. So I approached the mom of a girl who lives on our street to see if she was interested in babysitting. We talked about it and she'll start with a couple of hours to start. The great part of it is my D already loves this girl, so she'll have no problem on our date nights. And I get to tell D and H about it tonight. D will be ecstatic and H will see it as a 180 for me, since he had wanted me to find a sitter for years but I was too nervous to trust D w/ anyone. We have no family where we live, so no date nights for about 6 years - I know, sad, really sad. But that's changing and that 180 will be for me to make sure I always have access to a list of sitters.

Take care,
FA

[micoms]

fa,

I think that might be the message my W is starting to see from me, I'm not going to sit in wallow wallow land and wait on her. H finding your list of pros and cons might be the kick in the pants to recommit, you might not wait forever. I think you left out one thing H is feeling, guilt. He will need assurance from you that you can forgive him, forget, probably not.

Your "date" sounds like a loving and fun time together. I'm jealous, but happy for you. My idea of a date would W and I dressing up, a little dinner and some dancing. We used to go dancing at least once a month before she got her job with few weekends off. Nothing like holding your love in your arms and swaying to the music, I loved the slow ones.

I think you missed out on living as you are now, you do your thing and he does his. You need to have something you do together. The only hoop W would have to jump through to come home is to attend Retrouvaille with me.

The R talks I would want to have would only be 10 or 15 minutes long, just kind of a progress report. Tell me what I need to do better, I'll tell you what I need more of.

Now you have a sitter, look out date nights on the way!! Time alone with your H will be important in rebuilding your R and M.

Mike

[fooled again]

Mike,

Your W is no doubt thinking about the idea of you not waiting around forever for her. While in the tunnel they think and say that it's better for us to get on w/ our lives and find someone that deserves us, but I don't think that's what they really want. I think they say those things in a bid to get us to give them reassurance that we still want them. I see that from my H. He asks me about things, like a new necklace I'm wearing ("Where did you get that?"), like my book club meeting ("Are there any guys who have joined?"), and I know that he's trying to figure out if there is someone in the wings, a friend who is a man, that may be a threat.

But I expect your W has alot of processing to do before she is ready to recommit. I think you continuing to compliment her (this is a huge thing for me) and reminding her that you still want her in your life, but doing so subtly, while at the same time going out & having fun, maybe taking a class & learning something new (that'll make her curious, especially if you haven't done that before).

I'm not entirely sure how to handle the idea of my not waiting forever for him. On the one hand, as long as he's cycling, I need for him to see that I am a pretty good catch and there doubtless be someone out there who will want me if he doesn't. But what I don't need is for him to actually believe that I am actually being unfaithful (hmmm - is it being unfaithful if you are separated? I guess it is as long as you are still married). I don't want to add to his depression, but I do want to stir him up to realize that he could lose me if he doesn't recommit to our M. So it's a fine line I walk.

The movies was fun, and I "acted as if" we were just like any other family out to the movies - laughing & joking & having a good time. At one point during the movie my phone started vibrating, so I took it out to see who the call was from (it was D's dance teacher) then put it back. He saw me looking at my phone but didn't say anything. After the movies I expected H to say goodnite & take D back to his place. Instead he asked if I wanted to get a bite to eat. I said yes (maybe I should have said that I was tired & wanted to go to be early). We went out (the food was terrible) and I started telling D a story to D about the summer b/f we got married living at the lake. H joined in w/ his own stories. It was nice.

So now I think I will keep doing my own thing when I'm not w/ him, going out w/ friends & keeping very busy. I want to take a few classes, cooking, pottery & find some other fun activities to continue w/ my GALing. Another 180 for me is making new friends & doing things w/ friends regularly. When I was a SAHM, I never made an effort to spend time w/ friends - H was my only friend, for the most part.

I told D & H about the sitter - D was thrilled. H smiled & I realized that although this will make it easier for us to spend time together alone, this can see also be a bit of a threat, since now I have easy access to a sitter to go out on my own whenever I want w/o having to wait for a night that he has D. It's a double edged sword, and again, I think it works to my advantage. I'm going to make him work at this, but in a subtle way. I'm going to make an effort to reach out to him, but I'm also going to force him to make an effort on his part.

BTW, H got a verbal offer for that job, so he is very happy. I told him Fri nite how excited I am for him and how proud I am. I validated that he worked really hard for this. But I think he is still reserving his excitement for when he actually gets to sign the written offer. I'm waiting to see how being employed will affect his state of mind, self esteem, and our sitch. My hope is that as he feels better about himself, he will feel that he has more to offer me, and will be more willing to show me that he's ready to recommit. I'm not getting my hopes up for this to happen quickly, but I would like to see him start talking about moving home by the summer, and maybe actually move home by the end of the year. It has been one year since he left, and our 24 year dating anniversary is this coming Friday.

About the feelings of guilt; of course H feels guilt. H feels an enormous amount of guilt over what he has done, the A, the spending, splitting up our family. When we were talking about the journal, I did say that I forgave him a long time ago, but I don't know if that registered. I'll have to tell him again one night when we are alone, maybe next Fri, when we have another date and D has a sleepover at her friend's house.

FA

[micoms]

fa,

How long was H unemployed? I know that can be hard on a guy, without going through a MLC. It's good that you're reaching out to him but still expecting him to reach out also. It sounds like you're on the recovery road. I don't know about my sich. I fear we will be D'd before we get to that point.

How is D feeling with H around more, bet she is thrilled. Telling D the stories about before you were married was good for H to remember the good times, when they start into MLC they only seem to remember the bad ones. H telling stories of the good times has to be a reminder that there were lots of good times.

Maybe telling H you forgive him again would be best saved for when he asks for your forgiveness. Keep spending more time with him and have more dates.

Mike