Lanzo, I think of forgiveness as an acceptance of the injustices of the past and a willingness to live with the pain it caused. It also involves not acting-out or reacting to the pain in a way that causes harm in the present.
In order for there to be a letting go, there first has to be a staying with. Does this make sense?
Once we stay with the emotions, we can then observe how our mind is reacting to these emotions. We can see how we put ourselves in a victim mode. We can see how we judge our spouse. We can see how we want to act-out our painful emotions.
It's a practice, not an easy one, but an essential one. I would say that unless the LBS navigates this issue, D is likely to ensue.
Once we become skillful at managing our emotions, than there is potential for healing in the R, and healing conversations which is what you're striving for.
CL
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
Lan, Its relatively easy for me to forgive someone who asks for my forgiveness. Its pretty hard to "forgive" someone who is not contrite. Further as long as we see something as "injustice" its pretty hard to forgive. If we see it as "that's the best they can do" or "they know not what they do" or "it was just an accident" then its easier. Another thought is that "forgive" often has a religious/condescending bent and I think its probably more helpful to see it in secular or pragmatic or intelligent light. CL's comment about "observing" our own reactions on the movie screen of our own mind would be an interesting exercise to try esp when we are in the thick of a battle; I need to try it myself. We feel hurt by what someone "does to us" when in reality they didn't mean to hurt us or cannot help themselves; perhaps they were hurting.
You have a lot of books on your plate so I don't really want you to deal with yet another. But there's this book "Emotional Intelligence" by Daniel Goleman. You may want to read just the chapter titled "Intimate Emotions" or something like that when you can get it from the library or browse through a bookstore. It should take just a few minutes.
I'm just shooting from the hip in the hope that it may help because I've mulled over this topic from time to time. -fb2
W has not asked for forgiveness, and she's nowhere near contrite. So how do I forgive that. Also what she did was no accident, There was a lot of planning, lies, deceit, etc so I'm still finding that hard to deal with and yes hard to forgive. But I'm having a good think about the approach CL has suggested cos at the very least it will get me actively thinking about the emotions that I will be feeling rather than let them churn around inside me then erupt in small out bursts. So at least I've got a route or a positive step towards forgiveness.
Hey Kalni,
Originally Posted By: Kalni 02/02/08
get a book called ILY but I am not in love by Andrew G. Marshall. Don't get worried with the title. It is very optimistic and is an "eye opener". As far as I am concerned it is a great book. It has 2-3 chapters on how to get back on track after a crisis. Sexually, mentally, with your hearts...
I've started reading this but I think I'm gonna skip straight to the post crisis chapters you mentioned cos I think they are most relevant to my current status.
Yes sure, do that. You are out of patience and you have read so many books by now, I bet. But do go back sometime, in the beginning it tells you why SOME couples STAY together, what are the qualities they have that other's that fall appart don't. And don't miss the part about guilt of the WAS (he doesn't use this term but you now what I mean), it's a whole chapter. You can't make her read it but maybe you can get a hint about what is going on in her head, maybe!!
W has not asked for forgiveness, and she's nowhere near contrite.
Ok here it is....
Of course she is none of the above. Why should she be?
So how do I forgive that.
Hold onto that ^^^^^
Also what she did was no accident, There was a lot of planning, lies, deceit, etc so I'm still finding that hard to deal with and yes hard to forgive.
I feel ya. I get it. Flip your mind for 2 min. Try as hard as you can to look like a "woman". How many times did you do something that she thought was planned? Or full of lies. Or just deceitful? To top it all off it was "Unforgivable"?
But I'm having a good think about the approach CL has suggested cos at the very least it will get me actively thinking about the emotions that I will be feeling rather than let them churn around inside me then erupt in small out bursts. So at least I've got a route or a positive step towards forgiveness.
Your toes are headed the right direction.
I've started reading this but I think I'm gonna skip straight to the post crisis chapters you mentioned cos I think they are most relevant to my current status.
Everybody is in crisis. MLC. OPC (Other Person Crisis). Drama, Drama, Drama.
Way back.... NO DRAMA!!
How do I forgive???....
Because it is all worth it. What have you got to loose? Some time?
Forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.
I have read "Everything" I could. I am an internet guru. I was watching Al Gore while he built it.
People only "listen" when they want to.
Me like you read the "book" that started all this. How hard do you think I picked it apart? How many times do you think I called my WAW and asked her "is this what you really think?" How many times do you think I hit her over the head with what I "THINK"? In my mind.. (DAM) at least twice what she hit me with what she "thought".
"Fast Forgiving" is a sign. Forgiving has issues cause you gotta get over all the "stuff". If you want it or not all this "DRAMA" will fade away. You will have forgiven.
One of two things will happen.
#1
You are sitting next to your wife. Your Son/Daughter Is walking down the aisle. Pick a aisle. You are so happy. Your excitement can't be hidden. You talk about old times. What has happened in your "life".
#2
You are sitting next to your new wife/girlfriend. Your Son/Daughter Is walking down the aisle. See above. You are so happy. Your excitement can't be hidden. You talk about old times. What has happened in your "life".
What you maybe did not see is the one you made that kid with is there. Maybe they are there with their significant other. Are you gonna talk about all the stuff he/she never made right?
Any way you flip it or "spin" it all the "stuff" is gone. <<<< Forgiven.
So from a DAM perspective. Which one is easier to fix?
Thanks
Relax Eat Think Act normal React.. Smartly. Do something different. Emulate. Do Work.
I have read your post in response to me talking about forgiveness, however I was wondering if you've misunderstood what my quest for knowledge on forgiveness is all about.
I am not saying WHY should I forgive W because of what she has done to me. I am saying HOW do I forgive, what is the actual act of forgiveness.
I think we both know that I have to forgive and let go of any hostility resentment etc., I have to give myself that gift of forgiveness. How does it work ? Do I just tell myself W is forgiven and carry on with life?.
Too be honest I think W needs to know that she has been forgiven because she thinks her acts have been so unspeakable (and she won't speak about them) that she has said to me that she doesn't think that I will ever be able to forgive her. So on that point we will need to talk, and if we do talk I know it should not, will not, be about me putting her under the spotlight and trying to extract a confession out of her in order for her to be forgiven. But the talks have to come to a resolution that rids me of this feeling that I have that W should never criticize me ever again cos she is the one who fu*ked up our M.
So Forrest if I understand the possible out comes to the future using your analogy
If I just forgive and move on this may happen
Originally Posted By: Forrest Gump
You are sitting next to your wife. Your Son/Daughter Is walking down the aisle. Pick a aisle. You are so happy. Your excitement can't be hidden. You talk about old times. What has happened in your "life".
If I pester W for answers and eventually forgive this may happen
Originally Posted By: Forrest Gump
You are sitting next to your new wife/girlfriend. Your Son/Daughter Is walking down the aisle. See above. You are so happy. Your excitement can't be hidden. You talk about old times. What has happened in your "life".
Remember I'm asking HOW to forgive not WHY should I forgive.
Lanzo, You seem to be creating an expectation that a certain type of discussion with your W will allow you to forgive her. If she says the right words, and with sincerity, than you can forgive her.
I don't think forgiveness is conditional. It is based on unconditional love and compassion, in spite of the betrayal of the past. The emotional work is yours to do.
When you have a distressing thought about your W try the Breathing Space exercise. 1) Identify your thoughts, feelings, and bodily sensations, 2) Become aware of your breathing and practice staying with the breath, and 3) Breathe into any painful parts of your body, with the idea of softening and accepting the pain and distress in your body.
Three minutes is all you you need to break the pattern of spinning in your mind, and intensifying negative emotions. Practicing the rest of your life is needed to cultivate a healthy mind, and to counter negative reactions to events.
CL
CL 53 W 54 M 20 yrs. 03'-09' Separation + Old Patterns + GAL 10-14' Piecing
"The Master allows things to happen. She shapes events as they come."
Thanks for your inputs so far. You last post prompted many thoughts in my head which I was having difficulty trying to articulate but I've tried to keep it simple.
Originally Posted By: Concerned_Listener
You seem to be creating an expectation that a certain type of discussion with your W will allow you to forgive her. If she says the right words, and with sincerity, than you can forgive her.
The answer to this is maybe yes maybe no. Probably yes cos based on what you just posted I haven't grasped the concept of forgiveness.
But if you disregard everything from my last post with the exception of this key point below, this is what I am trying to find the answer to.
Originally Posted By: Lanzo
I am saying HOW do I forgive, what is the actual act of forgiveness.
Because if I don't know what the act of forgiving is how will I know how to forgive or if I have it in me to forgive. That's what I'm trying to understand.
So if I can make it clear, I'm not hung up on the act of betrayal, the hurt, the pain etc, etc (so no need for breathing exercises) I'm hung up on finding a very simple, understandable, workable definition of forgiveness.
I'm not sure anyone can really help you out on this one - its a question which taxes or has taxed many of us here but for every person there is likely a different answer.
The ability/propensity to forgive is something I think which is an integral part of an individual's psyche and not a quality which is easy to define or learn.
Personally,I've found the "its a gift you give yourself" angle useful. This internal perspective has helped me deal with it.
