Women are no brought up trying to do it All. Women are exhusted by the end of the day because they are trying to be teh traditional homemaker AND breadwinner. This means that something has to give, and that is almost always their relationship with their man.
Cemar, even though I'm the HD spouse, and the wife, I could not agree with you more on this!!! I just had a baby, went back to work "part-time" (still work 35 hrs per week) to a high demand job, take care of all of the household duties, grocery shopping, pets, and so on. I can't quit my job due to financial reasons, hubby wants me to not work so much and be home more, but won't give up cable, Xbox games, and such. It's a no-win situation. You're right, by the end of the day - I'M EXHAUSTED!!
So THANK YOU for this post. I needed it today. . .
Kellie ------ Me - 27 H - 31 S - born 8/18/2007 Married - 4/24/2005 Together - 7/03/2002
OK, I replied to Cemar before reading the entire thread. So I have a few things to add here. I agree with Cemar that women try to do too much. I am one of those women. I will admit it any day of the week. But, I think that society has portrayed that a woman needs to work full-time, raise kids, keep the house cleaned, dinner on the table, laundry done, and still be sexy in bed. Then ready to go the next morning with a smile on her face.
I "cut" my hours back at work, from 45/50 to 35. I came back on with a "part-time" status, only to find myself working too much. I have a high-demand job, and it's only MY fault that I work more than intended. I built up my job so that only I can do it, and loved it 7 years ago, but going to work while on maternity leave - sucks. So I'm slowly in the process of training someone to help learn my job so that she can help me. I did that to myself.
I feel that women stay too busy - and it's their own fault. We tend to try and be the perfect wife and the perfect mom to those on the outside looking in. A lot of people try to live their lives keeping up with the Jonses, and SAHM are definitely not given the right amount of gratitude. But, we, as women, have done that to ourselves. My hubby wants nothing more than for me to stay at home w/ our 5 mo old son. But we can't financially afford it (too bad I'm not married to an lawyer on this board!). Our house is up for sale, to move into a smaller home so that I may actually have the chance, but as we all know - the housing market just sucks right now.
So in a way, I agree w/ Cemar's statment that it just might be women's lib. Not 100% the only reason, blah blah blah, but that could be an issue. It's a very good observation on his part. And I believe that if you asked any man: "would you rather have a happy marriage or a big screen", most of them would opt for the first. A happy wife is a happy home (for the most part ).
Kellie ------ Me - 27 H - 31 S - born 8/18/2007 Married - 4/24/2005 Together - 7/03/2002
No bloody way. I'm not going back to the days where I wouldn't have been able to vote, be considered someone's property, and be forced to stay in an abusive marriage because there was no alternative because I had not a penny to call my own. Totally not in charge of my own life.
I see two problems at least. One is that our society does not value families, so some women are forced to make tough choices because they are not supported as both mothers and members of the work force.
Another problem is the lack of support that some women have for other women's choices that are different than their own. This probably does have its roots in women's lib to a degree. Some working women think SAHMs are slackers who are potentially turning the clock back on the progress already made, and some SAHMs think working women are bad mothers, putting their careers above their children. I thought women's lib was about choice. Of course there are lots of women who don't have a choice to work or stay home due to economic reasons. But for those who can choose, I'd love to see women more supportive of each other, rather than dividing into camps. Women divide into lots of camps: WOH/SAHM, breast/bottle, meds/no meds during childbirth, traditional schooling/homeschool, etc. Pretty sad, really.
I had a discussion with MIL awhile back about that "Raising Cain" book and the article in Newsweek that I linked on my thread recently. The article talks about the trend of public education in this country toward teaching to girls, and how educators tend to view boys as defective girls in the classroom. Her response was "well the girls were shafted for so long, it's about time the boys were." I said "WHAT!?! Why does it have to be one at the expense of the other? Why can't education work for both genders?" Maybe I'm a little too idealistic.
I went to my 25th class reunion a few years ago and saw a friend I hadn't seen since graduation. She is a tenured college prof. She asked me what I do and I told her I was a SAHM. I said it confidently because I am happy with my choice. I watched her face change to disinterest as she smiled a polite smile and said, "oh," and then turned to talk to someone else. Another friend who was standing with us then asked me what I had done before having my son and we chatted about that and her job as a teacher. It was clear to me that the first woman had no interest in talking further to me once she realized that I was a SAHM. Her loss, right?
I've always found it unfortunate that women must act like men in order to be taken seriously. I'd love to see our society value women for being women, intellectually equal to men and having equal opportunities in society, of course, but still valued for the unique set of characteristics that makes us women. Just call me Pollyanna.
I've always found it unfortunate that women must act like men in order to be taken seriously. I'd love to see our society value women for being women, intellectually equal to men and having equal opportunities in society, of course, but still valued for the unique set of characteristics that makes us women. Just call me Pollyanna.
I totally agree with you on this Mrs Cac. I agree with Southern Girl too. We can't turn the clock back to the point where women were chattels. It is like we have been told "OK you can have the vote, and access to a decent education and maternity leave etc but only as long as you can act the same way a man does. Earn as much as a man, drink as much as a man, shag as much as a man - then you can count as a man and have equal rights". And duh we bought that line! It is completely crazy, women are not the same as men (thank god) but that doesn't mean we need to be treated as second class citizens. I think attitudes to girls and women need to change fundamentally it is not about forcing girls into boy-shape cookie cutters it is about looking at what girls and women bring to the world and valuing that. I quite honestly believe that it would be a good idea to look at women's career paths in a totally different light - maybe encourage young women to have families much earlier and then return to education and the work-force in their 30s having already done the SAHM bit at a much earlier age. A straight line career from say 30 - 65 ain't bad. The only reason women currently HAVE to work for economic reasons is because the economy has absorbed the extra income women bring to the family, we now have no end of luxuries our forebears didn't enjoy, house prices are totally ridiculous and impossible for one earner to manage, and we are paying other people to watch our kids. By the time a lot of women get round to having kids they've already enjoyed 10 years or more of earning their own money with nothing but luxuries to spend it on, or being part of a two-income household. By the time they get around to having children dropping that second income just doesn't seem possible. Before the 70s mortgage companies took no account of the wife's income when offering a loan, hence house prices had to remain affordable on the man's income only. It seemed like equal opportunities to let the wife's income count but it just meant house prices spiralled upwards and no-one could afford a house on one income.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
No bloody way. I'm not going back to the days where I wouldn't have been able to vote, be considered someone's property, and be forced to stay in an abusive marriage because there was no alternative because I had not a penny to call my own. Totally not in charge of my own life.
No thanks. Suck it up, guys.
LOL- I call myself a post-feminist neo-romantic for various reasons. One problem I have with swallowing the theories of classical feminism whole is that there is a bit of mythology about the "bad old days" of oppression. Force of individual personality is a reality that has always trumped the ignorance of any -ism. I wouldn't want to live in Ibsen's doll house but Moll Flanders wasn't exactly a weak bunny and I think most of Jane Austen's women could step into modern life quite easily with a simple change of wardrobe. When I was dating GP, he said that black men and white women are drawn to each other because they've both been oppressed by white men. I think I allowed myself to be oppressed by one white man but that doesn't mean that white men are naturally oppressive.
On a practical note, having done about every possible variation myself, I have advised my daughter that if she wants to have children the best possible combo would be to have them when she returns to Grad School.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Fran as long as you can act the same way a man does. Earn as much as a man, drink as much as a man, shag as much as a man - then you can count as a man and have equal rights. Really? That is an interesting POV. I never thought that way. If you have, I am sure other women thought the same thing.
I think attitudes to girls and women need to change fundamentally it is not about forcing girls into boy-shape cookie cutters it is about looking at what girls and women bring to the world and valuing that. I quite honestly believe that it would be a good idea to look at women's career paths in a totally different light-.... I agree.
work for economic reasons is because the economy has absorbed the extra income women bring to the family, we now have no end of luxuries our forebears didn't enjoy, house prices are totally ridiculous and impossible for one earner to manage, and we are paying other people to watch our kids. By the time a lot of women get round to having kids they've already enjoyed 10 years or more of earning their own money with nothing but luxuries to spend it on, or being part of a two-income household. By the time they get around to having children dropping that second income just doesn't seem possible. Before the 70s mortgage companies took no account of the wife's income when offering a loan, hence house prices had to remain affordable on the man's income only. It seemed like equal opportunities to let the wife's income count but it just meant house prices spiraled upwards and no-one could afford a house on one income.
Oh gosh, this is so true. People got used to having and having. Very few people are satisfied with less than what is available. They might not have it but many want it.
A big change I saw in my lifetime was when people used to ask how much did something cost to how much is the monthly payment? It is similar to going from an owner's perspective, to a renter's attitude. I see the shift as “What can I have now.”
I have had many discussions with my Mom lately about how she rasied us kids (very well). My Mom has never worked a day in her life. During the 60's and 70's when she was raising us, we had a wonderful home life with Mom there for us. But when I talk to her now, she was ridiculed during thos years for being nothing more then a house wife. But it NEVER was from MEN. It was all the WOMEN in her church, at school, in her groups, that ridiculed her for being nothing more then a SAHM.
I respect SAHM's MORE then other women. I know how hard it truly IS to raise children. Work is easy, you sit on your butt 8 hours a day looking at a computer. Kids will run you ragged.
My mother is 79 and never worked a day in her life. She was CONSTANTLY belittled for being nothing more then a homemaker. And 99% of the people that belittled her were WOMEN. She has NEVER mentioned a single MAN belittling her.
Ever here the quote "Women have careers, men have jobs".
I believe that in achieveing equality with men, women have actually had to come DOWN to a man's level. I believe that women have actually LOST respect in the eyes of men. Look at how men treated women a 100 years ago, they put women on pedestals. Today, they often treat women like men, and that is not a good thing. How many knights in shining armor do women find today?
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