sgctxok....I'm listening.....

[Bworl]

Sorry, I forgot to ask.....are you now his spokeperson as it is too painful for him to speak about.?? Hmmm.....

Not sure what the point of this is Jeanette.

FIB is a friend, and in my world we would do anything we could to help support a friend. Including letting him know when he's right OR wrong. I'm sorry if this bothers you.

But perhaps you're right. Maybe I've taken too active a role today in trying to get people to ALLOW FIB to make his own decision.

If you ever do get a chance to talk to him directly, feel free to ask if I have ever told him what to do. I don't advise Jeanette, I listen and I let him know if I think he's being reasonable and rational, and if it sounds like he's thought things through. And I support him. Because I've been there too, and I didn't have to live with it in my face every day.

I'm not sure what's contradictory about being sure about what you're doing but wishing it could be otherwise.

I'm sure that God felt the same way in the garden with Adam and Eve. I KNOW I've felt that way many times in raising my two boys. Sometimes the right thing to do is still painful. It doesn't make it any less right.

Sorry I've offended you.

Blessings,

Bill

[Jeff223]

I'm not sure what's contradictory about being sure about what you're doing but wishing it could be otherwise.

Not bad for a geometry, I mean calculus teacher.

Strength and Honor Bill. We both said all we can.

Now we must ponder the opposite side.

[Jeanette1120]

FIB is a friend, and in my world we would do anything we could to help support a friend. Including letting him know when he's right OR wrong. I'm sorry if this bothers you.

No clue....

But perhaps you're right. Maybe I've taken too active a role today in trying to get people to ALLOW FIB to make his own decision.

He's the only one that can. But this is a support group where many opinions are thrown at you and at the end of the day your more confused than ever and sometimes you need a break from everyone including the best of friends to sort it out on your own.

I'm not sure what's contradictory about being sure about what you're doing but wishing it could be otherwise.

I have yet to see where he has said 100% he is POSITIVE this is what he wants to do. I see what he has to do. Not wants. Wishes do come true Bill? Did they not for you?

I'm sure that God felt the same way in the garden with Adam and Eve.

Now I'm totally getting petty and picky but uhm....are you that close to God that he told you how he feels? If so, let me know, I have a few questions that I need answered ASAP!

Sometimes the right thing to do is still painful. It doesn't make it any less right.

A big AMEN to that.

Sorry I've offended you.

No Bill, I do not get so easily offened as earlier years on here. I have traveled a bit further now. I simply am trying to see the logic is what goes on here. Thats it

Again.....I can't compare my hurt, pain or suffering with FIB as mine is mine and his is his. But in the end...it does hurt like hell.

Jeanette

[I_Wanna_Make_It_Work]

One final point - and then I'm out, too. Because frankly, I'm not going to argue. My post was clear. The moderator suggested we give solution based suggestions ... I did. In fact, I'm the only one who did. And I suggested something tried and tested that has worked for me. The rest of the banter seems nothing more then defensive posturing and justification for our own agendas and bias. I'm not participating.

FIB - you know where I am and from where I come. There is another way. Painful? Yes. More painful then divorce? Hmmmm - I can't answer that one. But I don't think so. FIB, I say what I say because I've looked in your eyes and can see the pain in your soul. Of the posters tonight, the 3 divorced people all say the same thing - the pain will not go away when the court hands you a piece of paper.

Standing in front of a judge recounting your W's failings in public doesn't get you closer to your goal.

But that is the optimist in me. Believing in faith, hope and love - and not D.

Email me privately if I can help you in any way whatsoever.

I'm out .... off to pack. I'm taking my W in Las Vegas for the weekend.

[faithisbelieving]

I think separation is a crucial part of getting to the point where you can find that inner peace again. And without that, it seems to me that there is little possibility of restoring the relationship one day.

..and this is exactly what John Gray says in his book...that the hope for reconciliation for many is a form of denial..that hanging on keeps you from having to face the pain of divorce or separation...that, if there truly IS any hope for reconciliation, it usually does not occur until complete forgiveness and termination of the R/M occurs and one starts from the beginning...

ADD: Separation is not a choice for me here in the state of NY. The S with the bigger pockets has to pay for EVERYTHING during the sep..different from D...and..according to my L, after 12 months, they can argue, foot drag, etc and these are the 'D's that drag on for years and years at the cost of the H. She actually made a separate phone call last fall fearing that this would happen to me and urged me to file (not Divorce) first.

FIB

[Jack_Three_Beans]

complete forgiveness and termination of the R/M occurs and one starts from the beginning...

FIB,

Both me and my wife agreed, that the only way we managed to start rebuilding our marriage, was because we tore it down to nothing. Emotionally we were at zero.

I want to say something about False Hope, it has been playing on my mind...it seems appropriate here.

False hope is only false if someone is deceiving you. If someone is playing on your hopes with no intentions of fulfilling them.

Otherwise it is just hope. And if that hope doesn't pan out, we incorrectly and bitterly label it false hope...

[faithisbelieving]

Go ahead FIB, post 30 things W must do to "earn her way back", with due dates. Go ahead, post it on the fridge and measure her performance. "Explain" it to her.

(cough)....we both know...that would never work. In fact, during a powerful talk at a gas station as my W followed me in her car before I drove upstate to go to a get together (she was begging me not to sleep over)...I even hinted at perhaps some things that MIGHT help us or point this in a better direction.....haven't seen anything to date.

FIB

[I_Still_Love_Him]

Wow, 3 days away from the board and so much to catch up on but just want to answer some questions posed to me and make some comments...

The actions I was speaking of is FIB's W's actions. She has not done anything or said anything that would demonstrate that she wants to remain in the M.

Love is an action of which I have not seen any from her. Demanding to be kissed is for her, not for FIB. Love is what you can do for the other person and not what the other person can do for you. I hate to repeat what others have already identified but demanding that FIB kiss her does not say she wants to be M to FIB; she wants control. She pulls him long enough to keep him close but then pushes him away.

Yes, filing for D is not an action towards saving a M however just as FIB has been working on himself to save his M despite the fact that his W said she wanted a D, so now she can work on herself to save her M despite the fact that FIB has filed. The gavel has not dropped yet.

What can she do to prove his worthiness? How about doing something for him; to make him feel wanted; to make him feel loved. Or, how about seeking help and following through with it. Whether she feels that she needs the help or not, she should seek it because she wants to save the M. Not getting any help tells me she doesn't take any responsibility for what has transpired in the last 2 years.

Whether this is MLC or a mental health issue, I don't see the difference. I'm not a Dr and maybe I'm wrong but from what I read MLC, it is a form of depression and depression is a form of mental illness. Does this not make it the same? Of course MLC comes in different severity from those who simply spend a lot of money where they would not otherwise have done so to those who have affairs and start a new family just as there are different levels of depression.

Amy, I agree with you that therapy is not the only answer but the difference with you and FIB's wife is that you did recognize the pain you caused and your part in the demise of your M; you did demonstrate and not simply tell your H that you wanted to save your M. FIB's W did not say she WANTS TO SAVE THE M, she said she DOESN'T WANT A D; this is not the same thing. She also does not recognize the pain she has caused.

I will reiterate what Jeff, Bill and Nic have stated that no one here wants to be D nor do we wish D on FIB and his W. There is nothing more that we would want than to see FIB and his W live happily ever after. The only way this can truly happen is if both FIB and his W want this, not just FIB.

I also want to mention that just because some of us are already D and some in a new R, doesn't mean that we are not standers. Being a stander does not mean that we will wait forever to get our WAS back. Now that my H has a baby with his gf, should I be wishing that he leave his child's mother and his child to come back to me? That goes against my morals. I do still love him despite the hurt but I could not and will not wish to take him away from his child.

To be a "stander", should I not be moving forward with my life even if it means that I could find someone else that will love me? To be a "stander" should I live the rest of my life alone knowing the odds of my H coming back?

Although I will be open to another R and FIB chose to file, does not make us quitters. We make the choices we do because of the choices that our WAS made.

I think we all agree that there is no right or wrong answer that will guarantee that our M will be saved. We can only make our own decisions and know that it is what we feel we must do and have no regrets. We may never know if it was the right decision or not but we WILL make the best of the choices we do make. As Bill and others have proven, there is life even after a D; to think otherwise is to lose faith.

I admire and respect everyone who has posted on this thread and admire FIB for his strength. I know we all came on this board because we all wanted to save our M as none of us believe in D. I know we all came to this thread because we care about FIB. Unfortunately, not all will succeed and it doesn't mean we are failures but rather that our WAS did not want to take the same journey with us.

We are ultimately solely responsible for our own happiness so we alone must make the decision on which path we choose to take regardless of which path others would have chosen.

FIB, I continue to pray for you and your family.

Hugs,
ISLH

[Bworl]

ISLH,

Perfectly said.

Isn't it true that we are all standers? But as you said so well...

Being a stander does not mean that we will wait forever to get our WAS back.

I stood for my marriage, until there was no marriage left to stand for, and until there was none of the woman left that I was once married to.

I will stand for my next marriage. Because I, like each of you, believe that marriage is a life long commitment. I never wavered in that belief, my ex spouse did. We all learn eventually that we cannot control anyone but ourself.

I wish you peace. You sound like you've begun to find it, and that's a wonderful thing.


Blessings,

Bill

[faithisbelieving]

It's tough to respond to all the amazing people who have taken the time to try and help. I KNOW that the posts are meant to help me STILL to try and save my M. My sitch is certainly not 'run of the mill' here, as many of you can see from the heightened posts that occur here from time to time. Certainly, I still think of my previous two years as a 'filme noire'. In some ways, I don't want to say I enjoy the verbal judo here....but..I DO learn from it..grow from it...balance it..and try to be a better person because of it.

On Valentine's Day...my W got her gifts from the kids and, much to my surprise (yes), my W gave me an upper level box of chocolates, a new shirt from Armani Exchange and a card, that, well, fell quite short in my mind considering what she says to me. Please...I know that many of you would prefer to say positives about the card and certainly it is better than being treated like dirt...but it is out of place with regards to her words. Her actions are more important to me now..and trust me...I am NOT trying to fix ANYTHING now.

The card is one of Snoopy, sitting on top of his doghouse looking at stars in the sky and there is a heart constellation. Inside:

Printed: Happy Valentine's Day

Written: Dear Frank, I know that it's not the happiest one, but I hope that it gets better. Happy Valentine's Day. Love, XXX (her full formal name). After getting these, I asked my W to come to me and I took both her hands in mine:

Me: XXX....almost two years ago, on Father's Day...you didn't give me a card (as you would expect, she didn't recall this...as many of our S's don't and frequently rewrite history). You told me on that day that you couldn't get me one because you looked thru all the cards and couldn't buy one for me because none of them said what you wanted to say (they were too personal). Well...XXX...I'm sorry, but, I looked for a card for you yesterday and I couldn't find one that I felt like I wanted to give. Last fall....when I tried to offer you a weekend getaway to 'reconnect', you turned me down saying that you were closed. I feel closed right now XXX.....Zack did this to me. (I'm sorry but I had to be honest).

If there is anyway to save our M, XXX (see, I STILL have left a door open a crack)...it would take a miracle...you would have to move mountains. I'm sorry. I'm sure YOU KNOW what would need to be done. But...I WILL know what it looks like if it happens.

Since filing, I will say, in a sense, I have seen more...(cough)...babysteps..positives..use WHATEVER phrase you want to...than thru the whole sitch. BUT...I need to rephrase what someone wrote above:

-Not wanting a divorce is NOT THE SAME as wanting "IN" with the marriage..wanting to be willing to work the M and save it.

I've been burned too many times in the past to simply say 'OK...I'll give this one more chance'. No way...unh unh. For your perusal:

Nov. 06, OM2, then:
-you're the greatest man in the world
-I can't live without you
-I just want to be 'home'
-I watched in admiration as you climbed while I sank
-whipped cream in the MBR, intimacy, etc
-then, emotional departure again followed by anger

Aug. 07 OM3:
-slips rings back on finger
-spoons
-greets me at door
-gives two powerful cards
-continues to lie and see OM3

Right now, my W is trying to spoon.wants me back in the MBR every night, got the Valentine's stuff, etc.

Where's the beef? You see, once again, as we all post here, all YOU can do is pick away at what I write..but...I LIVE HERE WITH HER. Over and over last year, I KNEW something was going on while people told me NOT to go down cheeseless tunnels. Well, my friends...there was Emmental, Edam, Gouda and Brie.

Do you all know your spouses?
Can you tell when something is 'off'?
Can you tell if they are lying to you?
Does your 'gut instinct' usually turn out right?

Where's the beef?

Spooning, kissing,pecking, etc...wow..great stuff right? It feels good..heck..GREAT, right? Guys..my male followers here....you all know it...speak up! Putting your face in your W's hair and smelling the perfume....feeling her back against your chest and the warmth...the comfort. C'mon...it isn't all about sex, right?? I'd venture almost all the men here would toss a night of sex out of the window just to be holding your W's that way, right? There is an indescribable comfort and intimacy there.

frank_d..is there anything MORE superior than doing that with your W? I'm sure you'd agree that THAT is attractive stuff. We men need it just as much as our W's need it. Warmth...closeness...security.

Can it be used as a tool?

And again....I've read everything here....powerful stuff. But...I still come back to the same thing...what is DIFFERENT NOW?????

What tells me that NOW....NOW..my W wants to save us?

Where is the beef? Tons of seeded roll.

What's a minimum here..if there is?

Can anyone here convincingly say that THIS TIME IS ANY DIFFERENT THAN THE OTHER TIMES????? OK...I'm being honest. Being the live-in LBS here....I CAN'T.

Could anyone here do an OM4..or OM5? 4kids? I _wanna? Is there anything healthy by standing for OM4 or 5?

On the flipside, I haven't signed anything yet. Sadly, I am fully prepared to do so.

No...no...I didn't file as 'tough love'...Jeff and frank_d will tell you that. I didn't do it as a maneuver. I didn't really even do it as an LRT.

I did it because I had HAD ENOUGH...too much hurt...too much risky behavior...zero work on the M....continually crossing boundaries that NO SPOUSE SHOULD PERMIT. At one point, I said the following to my W...and..I"m sorry if it is totally anti-DB:

Me: XXX....I don't think you realize this but, this is not something that I haven't thought about now for almost two years. Do you know that by doing this, I will have to sell our home? that I will throw myself into financial ruin? that I will lose seeing my kids for half my weekends, half my holidays? I KNOW....I WILL MISS pouring milk on D4's Cocoa Puffs and cutting S7's waffle's up in the morning. I ran many nights alone in the dark thinking about that. Do you realize what would make someone choose THIS over being together?

Many here will read the above and read 'anger'....'loss'....'little boy'...etc.

No...sadly, I am at peace right now. I'm so sorry, but, after being here for so long, I've looked at both sides. I have decided that standing....for someone who continually hurts you, shows no remorse, makes no effort to save a marriage...shows no interest in your life....has destroyed trust..and is NOT SEEKING HELP TO FIND OUT WHY FOR THEMSELVES...well, I DO think that there is a dependency issue.

Should S7 grow up learing that husband's sleep on couches?
Or should he learn that he should respect himself and know when to leave something bad for him? (yes..he WILL know one day how I feel about standing to save a M and never to run at the outstart).

Should D4 learn to dress provocatively and know that it's OK to cross relationship boundaries or learn that there are consequences to her actions? If what they say is true..that I preach here..that my D will choose a man based on her father, then, I CANNOT FAIL HER. STAYING IN A DESTRUCTIVE DEAD M IS FAILING MY D4.

My L's office called me the other day and my 36 have been converted into a legal document and is being sent back to me to be signed and notarized. Am I scared? Hell yeah.

And my final line to blow you all away.....my back door is still open to her. I don't have to post it, but, you all know what YOU would need to sign a termination. I know what it is. The ball is in her court. In a way, life is easier now. I don't have to do anything....except be the rock for my kids....be an H to my W....and watch.

FIB

PS...later on Valentine's Day, I bought her flowers...and I didn't even need to post here to ask if I should. That's easy...I bought them because I wanted to.